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[6e] Rigging

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Xenon

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« Reply #30 on: <02-13-21/0129:21> »
But Xenon's suggestion of "lower of stealth or piloting" is quite a fine house rule.
Agreed. This would be considered a House Rule for now as there is nothing in the rules as written to support this (at least not yet - perhaps this will change once the Rigger supplement is out).


Here is the reference to how this used to be resolved in SR5;

SR5 p. 184 Sensor Attacks
If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the target’s ... Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles), or Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] (drones). Since vehicle stealth is limited by the driver’s ability, the dice applied for Infiltration skill should not exceed the driver’s appropriate Vehicle skill.

Translated to SR6 this would be Stealth or Piloting (whichever is lowest) + Reaction.
« Last Edit: <02-13-21/0136:19> by Xenon »

Odsh

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« Reply #31 on: <02-13-21/0333:09> »
Ok thanks for the feedback. I changed to stealth tests to remove the Piloting component, but I keep those ideas in mind for potential house rules.

So from what I'm reading in another topic, it seems I can completely ditch the two columns "Controlling remotely in AR/VR"?
That would certainly simplify things, but as Xenon pointed out, there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then, probably remnants from previous editions.

Xenon

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« Reply #32 on: <02-13-21/0350:28> »
it seems I can completely ditch the two columns "Controlling remotely in AR/VR"?
Yes.

there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then...
The only inconsistency so far seem to be in the Control Device action (in the matrix chapter).

Odsh

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« Reply #33 on: <02-13-21/0421:14> »
there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then...
The only inconsistency so far seem to be in the Control Device action (in the matrix chapter).

Also the VR requirement for Jump into Rigged Device in the Matrix chapter.

Xenon

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« Reply #34 on: <02-13-21/0452:58> »
This might or might not be intended.

Odsh

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« Reply #35 on: <02-13-21/0522:07> »
Well it's either that, or this part in the Rigger chapter is incorrect or at the very least extremely confusing:

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Rigging can be done in AR and VR.

Odsh

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« Reply #36 on: <02-13-21/1104:55> »
So no simplification after all.

I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.

I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.

When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?

The description of Control Device states:
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You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.

What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #37 on: <02-13-21/1152:12> »
So no simplification after all.

I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.

I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.

Basically, yes.  Matrix Actions are largely presumed to be hacking contexts.  But some actions, like Send Message and Control Device, are also presented to (in part) provide some timing structure to matrix usage that might go on during combat.

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When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?

The description of Control Device states:
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You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.

What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?

These rules appear to be written from the presumption that a 6e analogue for the 5e control hierarchy would be reiterated in the CRB.  Unfortunately, one wasn't.

The concept of a control hierarchy works thusly:

1) Only one person is in control of a vehicle/drone at any given time.
2) In order to assume control when it's already under someone else's control, you have to exert control at a higher tier.  Those tiers are, in order:
2a) Jumped In
2b) Remote Control (via AR or VR- doesn't matter)
2c) Local Control (using autopilot+autosoft dice pools, but tactical choices are being made by metahuman controller)
2d) Manual Control (physical contact, directly manipulating physical controls- naturally only applicable to vehicles)
2e) Autopilot

So, an example:  A squad of corp-sec guards are on patrol, joined by a supporting Doberman drone.  The drone is part of the site's Host network.  While tagging along with the guards and just scanning for shadowrunners, the drone is probably under autopilot control. Why? Because it's a drone so there's no option for manual control.  Someone might be spending their actions every round to direct the drone around (like a real life R/C pilot controlling their model airplane) but this is probably unlikely as the autopilot is perfectly capable of doing this without requiring yet another employee to micromanage the drone's every action.

When this patrol comes into contact with intruding shadowrunners, the drone might remain under autopilot control during the confrontation.  But, maybe the drone is making bad decisions about what to do.  "Hey drone, don't shoot that one, GEEK THE MAGE!"  Right?  In this kind of situation, the guard used the Command Drone action (pg. 41) and control hierarchy just jumped to Local Control. If, once the mage is geeked or the drone otherwise cannot continue to execute that command, the drone will either stop and await new commands or revert back down to Autopilot control, per GM discretion.  The guard could also have explicitly worked in reverting back to Autopilot control, by saying "GEEK THE MAGE, then go back to your regular directives"

Maybe the drone's targeting autosoft isn't up to snuff and it's not proving capable of geeking that mage. One of the guards (or even a security spider, potentially) can use the Control Device matrix action to invoke Remote Control level of the control hierarchy.  This is the tier akin to having control of a R/C aircraft in real life. So long as they're authorized to do so, it's correct they don't roll as if they were a hacker.  It just works.  And while in Remote Control, they roll THEIR attributes and skill dice rather than the drone rolling its own + autosoft.  Once they quit actively controlling the drone, it quits being at this tier and "control is relinquished", down to Local Control or even Autopilot, as the GM determines (or as the controlling character wishes, if there are explicit wishes)

And of course, if a rigger or spider jumps in, that trumps all lower forms of control.  You can't trump Jumped-in, as there's nothing higher.

What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?

In 5e the way you'd command numerous drones simultaneously was via "Captain's Chair", which was at the Local Control tier.  You issue orders to multiple drones at once rather than one at a time (something you need a RCC to do) and then they all go forth and do the thing, using their own dice pools.  If you want to use your OWN dice pools, you have to use Remote Control and you can only be in Remote Control of one thing at  time (just as you can only be Jumped In to one thing at a time)
« Last Edit: <02-13-21/1200:55> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #38 on: <02-13-21/1155:16> »
So no simplification after all.

I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.

I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.

When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?

The description of Control Device states:
Quote
You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.

What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?

Yes the action is used for controlling devices you don't own, so no you don't need to use it to control drone you own

Relinquish command ... yes you can only control one device at a time unless you are using an RCC to control a drone network
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Odsh

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« Reply #39 on: <02-13-21/1301:46> »
Thanks for your answers guys.

Yes the action is used for controlling devices you don't own, so no you don't need to use it to control drone you own

So remote controlling one of your own drones has an advantage over "jumping in" the drone in that you don't need to spend a major action to initiate the control.
It's maybe not that relevant when you concentrate on a single drone, but can make a difference when switching between drones mid-fight to directly take control over the skirmishes where you are needed the most.

funkytim

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« Reply #40 on: <03-21-21/1101:04> »
Do you need a Control Rig to use an RCC?  What if I'm a non-rigger shadowrunner who wants to keep his vehicle from being hacked?

Sorry for the newb question but It's almost 30 years since I played shadowrun and I never got a handle on all the technical trades.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #41 on: <03-21-21/1109:32> »
Do you need a Control Rig to use an RCC?

Nope.  Anyone may use a RCC.  It's basically a super duper commlink with extra functionality.

Also note that anyone can use drones with or without a RCC. And anyone (even riggers with control rigs!) can remotely control drones while NOT being jumped in.


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What if I'm a non-rigger shadowrunner who wants to keep his vehicle from being hacked?

You should be doing for your vehicle what you're doing for all the rest of your gear: have a hacker on your own team to protect them :D  Of course, that's a halfway sarcastic post since device limits makes 1 PAN for the whole team a fragging nightmare, but that's the ideal to aspire for.

Shy of that, the best thing to do entire is just turn your wireless off on the vehicle.  However, that is probably a serious traffic safety violation (akin to driving at night with your headlights off).  Next best thing would be to make the vehicle part of your PAN... and crank your commlink (or RCC, if you want to buy one) firewall to max.

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Sorry for the newb question but It's almost 30 years since I played shadowrun and I never got a handle on all the technical trades.

No apologies needed!  The Matrix is a highly technical sub-game in Shadowrun, and it fragging changes every edition ;)
« Last Edit: <03-21-21/1255:21> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #42 on: <03-21-21/2012:25> »
RCC doesn't come with a sim module, the control rig implant do. So if you don't have a control rig then you can't really enter VR (you are limited to AR). And without a control rig you obviously also cannot jump into drones and vehicles.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #43 on: <03-21-21/2048:41> »
RCC doesn't come with a sim module, the control rig implant do. So if you don't have a control rig then you can't really enter VR (you are limited to AR). And without a control rig you obviously also cannot jump into drones and vehicles.

While that's true...

1) I don't believe there's any reason you can't buy a sim module for the RCC so that you can then employ VR.

2) you don't NEED to be in VR to control a drone anyway.  Need to be in VR to jump in, sure.  But just direct a drone around?  You can do that in AR.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #44 on: <03-22-21/0312:58> »
Control rig implant is mostly for wheelman riggers that tend to jump into their customized vehicle. While you can drive a vehicle yourself without one you get a lot of benefits if you have the implant. Doesn't really matter if you are connected to the matrix via A RCC or not (except for the noise reduction in case you are driving via remote).

RCC is mostly for Drone Swarm Operators that tend to command multiple drones at once. While you can also remote command drones without one (by using a commlink or a cyberdeck) you get a lot of benefits if you access the matrix via a RCC. Doesn't really matter if you have a control rig or not (except if you want to jump in).

Most riggers get both...