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[6e] Rigging

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Odsh

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« on: <02-11-21/1746:45> »
I'm trying to get an overview of the dice pool to use when controlling a vehicle through various means.
Could someone please tell me if the summary available here is correct?

Also, am I correct that the only advantage of a Control Rig that costs 3 Essence and 270k nuyen is a +3 dice for tests when jumped into a vehicle, rather than reducing the handling of the vehicle by that number like in previous editions?
Is this bonus also applied to attack tests?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <02-11-21/1758:04> »
Haven't looked at your doc yet, but a couple quick answers:

Yes, control rigs are hella expensive.  (although, the German language version is rating x 30,000, which I'd suggest as a fine house rule)

Control rigs give you +1 die per rating level, as you're already aware of.  Errata added in that control rigs now (once again!) reduce thresholds by rating, as well.

The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle.  Rea+Int to avoid being shot?  If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge.  Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun?  If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge.  Etc.  Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <02-11-21/1813:30> »
Your red bars:

Do you add Control Rig rating to attacks with mounted weapons while jumped in? Yes. (see above) remember there's an augmented limit on skill tests though... and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.

What do person-controlled vehicles roll when trying to be sneaky:  Yes, that's technically unstated.  I believe the best practice would be Stealth + Reaction (or Stealth + Intuition while in VR), while keeping in mind how high or low the driver's piloting skill actually is for the purposes of "circumstantial contexts" for that leg of the Edge gain triad.

Attack Rating: mounted weapons use the weapon's stats
Ramming Attack Rating for autopilot: Also technically unstated, but I believe the best practice is as you guessed: Use Maneuvering autosoft in place of the skill, plus Sensor.

You didn't appear to ask about what I find to be a pretty tricky thing to figure out:  what's it's MATRIX DR?  Because you know, the decker might want to hack or brick enemy drones, wouldn't they? :)

Luckily, most of the time the Matrix DR (which I abbreviate as mDR) is derived directly from the master device/owner or host/spider. But you don't always have a drone protected by a network.  In such a case, per pg 201 vehicles and drones have a Device Rating equal to its Sensor.  Technically Device Rating doesn't mean anything beyond how big the Matrix Condition Monitor is (which you'll absolutely need to know in the case of trying to brick it) and has 0/0DF because those stats were never explicitly given... I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously) and F is equal to Sensor (because Device Rating is equal to Sensor).
« Last Edit: <02-11-21/1827:39> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <02-12-21/0219:19> »
Could someone please tell me if the summary available here is correct?
Rule is not very clear here, but I would personally still resolve Sneaking with a vehicle (driving inconspicuously, tailing someone at a distance, etc) as Reaction (Manual/AR) or Intuition (VR/Jumped In) + Stealth or Piloting (whichever is lowest).


Also, am I correct that the only advantage of a Control Rig that costs 3 Essence and 270k nuyen is a +3 dice for tests when jumped into a vehicle, rather than reducing the handling of the vehicle by that number like in previous editions?
It does both. Just like in previous edition.

Errata Feb 2020 p. 6
p. 283, Control Rig, paragraph 2
Adjust the paragraph to read as follows:
When you’re jumped in it provides its rating as
a dice pool bonus on and reduction in threshold to
all tests involving the operation of vehicle, and a
bonus point of Edge.



Is this bonus also applied to attack tests?
Yes.

SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
Each rating point of the control rig awards one extra die on tests involving the operation of a jumped-in device.


what's it's MATRIX DR? 
It is typically Firewall (of the network the device is part of) + Data Processing (of the network the device is part of). In this edition the intention seem to be that most drones will be part of some sort of network.

But it have also been suggested that a device that is not part of any network at all and doesn't have any matrix attributes of its own still get to use its Device Rating in place of Firewall (but not Data Processing). And in case of a Drone, Device Rating would in that case be equal to its Sensor Rating.


I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously)
As mentioned above, most drones will probably be part of a network of sorts - but I think this ruling sounds fair.

(and could perhaps also be used for standalone smart weapon platforms as well).

Odsh

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« Reply #4 on: <02-12-21/0934:16> »
Thanks all for the in-depth responses.

and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.

I wouldn't have counted that towards the augmented limit personally. When making a test, it's usually an Attribute plus a Skill and both have their own augmented limit (for a total of +8). Towards which of the two augmented maximums would the Control Rig apply its bonus? To me it's a flat bonus to the dice pool, not specifically to the Attribute or Skill.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <02-12-21/1037:49> »
Thanks all for the in-depth responses.

and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.

I wouldn't have counted that towards the augmented limit personally. When making a test, it's usually an Attribute plus a Skill and both have their own augmented limit (for a total of +8). Towards which of the two augmented maximums would the Control Rig apply its bonus? To me it's a flat bonus to the dice pool, not specifically to the Attribute or Skill.

The augmented limit for skill tests* is different than the augmented limit for attributes.

You have a cap of +4 to any attribute.  New to 6e, you have a cap of +4 to any skill test*.  The two augmented limits stack, for a potential +8 bonus dice (capped at +4 though in each category), if you want to look at it that way.


*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test.  To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.
« Last Edit: <02-12-21/1046:14> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Odsh

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« Reply #6 on: <02-12-21/1135:43> »
*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test.  To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.

Thanks for the info, it's a subtle but important difference.
I understand that this was clarified as being the rules as intended, however to me the writing unambiguously says the opposite.

Odsh

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« Reply #7 on: <02-12-21/1146:25> »
The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle.  Rea+Int to avoid being shot?  If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge.  Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun?  If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge.  Etc.  Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.

You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.

It seems logical that someone controlling a vehicle remotely in VR will have an advantage against someone controlling his vehicle in AR.
Same for a "jumped in" rigger vs VR control.

But let's say a rigger is jumped into a Nissan Samourai and in close combat with a metahuman opponent. Who has the advantage? Is rigging better than controlling your own body?

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <02-12-21/1158:29> »
You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.
Errata Feb 2020 p. 6
p. 283, Control Rig, paragraph 2
Adjust the paragraph to read as follows:
When you’re jumped in it provides its rating as
a dice pool bonus on and reduction in threshold to
all tests involving the operation of vehicle, and a
bonus point of Edge.


(I already posted this I think....)

let's say a rigger is jumped into a Nissan Samourai and in close combat with a metahuman opponent.
If you are jumped in then you will get a bonus point of Edge to all tests involving the operation of vehicle.
« Last Edit: <02-12-21/1206:42> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <02-12-21/1201:08> »
The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle.  Rea+Int to avoid being shot?  If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge.  Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun?  If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge.  Etc.  Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.

You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.

No, I'm referring to Edge from Gear/Qualities/Etc.

Remember that there are THREE avenues for potential edge gain in any action:

1) AR vs DR (ok, only counts during attacks, but still relevant when attacking while rigging)

2) Gear/Qualities/Etc: Control Rig gives you automatic edge via this leg of the triad.

3) circumstantial modifiers: Is your vehicle well suited to the context? Poorly suited?  Are you driving in VR compared to your tail chasing you in AR?  etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Odsh

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« Reply #10 on: <02-12-21/1207:41> »
Thanks for the clarification, indeed I missed the part about the Edge gain from one of your previous posts.

Odsh

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« Reply #11 on: <02-12-21/1221:28> »
You didn't appear to ask about what I find to be a pretty tricky thing to figure out:  what's it's MATRIX DR?  Because you know, the decker might want to hack or brick enemy drones, wouldn't they? :)

Luckily, most of the time the Matrix DR (which I abbreviate as mDR) is derived directly from the master device/owner or host/spider. But you don't always have a drone protected by a network.  In such a case, per pg 201 vehicles and drones have a Device Rating equal to its Sensor.  Technically Device Rating doesn't mean anything beyond how big the Matrix Condition Monitor is (which you'll absolutely need to know in the case of trying to brick it) and has 0/0DF because those stats were never explicitly given... I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously) and F is equal to Sensor (because Device Rating is equal to Sensor).

It is typically Firewall (of the network the device is part of) + Data Processing (of the network the device is part of). In this edition the intention seem to be that most drones will be part of some sort of network.

But it have also been suggested that a device that is not part of any network at all and doesn't have any matrix attributes of its own still get to use its Device Rating in place of Firewall (but not Data Processing). And in case of a Drone, Device Rating would in that case be equal to its Sensor Rating.

Good point, I forgot about this important stat indeed.

So, when part of a network, the Matrix DR is Firewall + Data Processing of the network (usually an RCC).

For a drone on its own, it's less clear.

You both agree that Firewall should be equal to Sensor (seems strange but ok).

But then we have either Pilot for Data Processing or no Data Processing at all.

*sigh*  :D

At least no rigger will probably ever not slave one of its drones, so the issue is moot most of the time.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <02-12-21/1348:10> »
You both agree that Firewall should be equal to Sensor (seems strange but ok).

SR6 p. 201 Drone Rigging
Drones use the same statistical block as vehicles. For hacking purposes, consider their Device Rating to be equal to their Sensor rating.


But then we have either Pilot for Data Processing or no Data Processing at all.
By RAW devices, including drones, that are not part of a network and does not explicitly have Firewall or Data Processing have a DR of 0 (but drones will likely always be part of a larger network of sorts so this is not a very likely scenario I think)

Author have suggested an optional rule that devices, including but not limited to drones, that are not part of a network and does not explicitly have either Firewall nor Data Processing get to use their Device Rating instead of Firewall (but not Data Processing, Attack or Sleaze).

Matrix FAQ - Devices
Rules as written make having a decently defended team PAN a confusing mess due to low device limits. To offset this I propose the following …
...Unlinked devices that do not have any of the normal ASDF attributes can substitute Device Rating for Firewall (all other matrix attributes are zero).


In addition to this, SSDR suggest a non-official house rule to provide drones (and perhaps other devices that might have a pilot rating), that are not part of a network to use their Pilot rating instead of Data Processing as a House Rule.


At least no rigger will probably ever not slave one of its drones, so the issue is moot most of the time.
This.

Odsh

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« Reply #13 on: <02-12-21/1402:25> »
Quote
The attempt to hit another being or vehicle is an Opposed test—Piloting + Reaction vs. Piloting + Reaction if you’re trying to hit another vehicle, or Piloting + Reaction vs. Intuition + Reaction if you’re trying to hit someone outside a vehicle. Speed Interval penalties (p. 199) apply in either case.

Is every actor penalized by his own Speed Interval, or is it the attacker's Speed Interval applied to both?

Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <02-12-21/1414:30> »
Drivers should track their own speed.