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Riggers and Codeslinger: Control Device

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« on: <03-02-19/1151:09> »
Does Codeslinger: Control Device give an effective +2 dice pool bonus to every piloting, gunnery, sneaking, and etc test a character makes while using the Remote Control or Jumped In command modes?  Presumably tests using Accuracy, Sensor, Handling, or Speed as a limit override the Control Device usual limit of Sleaze, since rigging would otherwise be almost impossible on a RCC...


If it doesn't give +2 to "everything" rigging related, why not?  I kind of don't want it to from a game balance POV, but I can't see why it shouldn't from a mechanics POV...
« Last Edit: <03-02-19/1208:58> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <03-02-19/1209:32> »
Definitely not when Jumped In, since you're not using Control Device then. You ARE the device.

Anyway, I'd argue that since Control Device actually is a cover for multiple kinds of actions, Codeslinger would not apply to it. It constantly references the action you're emulating with control device, so obviously it's not the same action for all uses. You could pick 1 action you perform with Control Device, perhaps? So maybe Codeslinger: Control Device (Gunnery)?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <03-02-19/1215:54> »
Well, in the case of being Jumped In:

It's a question of A) Are you using the Matrix while Jumped In and if so B) what Matrix Actions are in play while you do things with the Vehicle/Drone.

I think with A) it's evident you're using the Matrix. You have to be in VR to Jump In/be jumped in, and VR is a Matrix User Mode.  Ergo, you're using the Matrix.

With B) it's a question of if you're not using the Control Device matrix action, then what Matrix Action are you using?  The Jump In Matrix Action only involves assuming the Jumped In tier of the Control Override hierarchy, it doesn't say it governs the things you DO while Jumped In.

Is it a viable leap of rules lawyering to assume Jump In covers not just assuming control, but also exercising control?  But if so, then Codeslinger: Jump In goes ahead and gives +2 dice to every rigging action...
« Last Edit: <03-02-19/1217:30> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <03-02-19/1222:22> »
[...]if you're not using the Control Device matrix action, then what Matrix Action are you using?
The Vehicle Action you're performing while jumped in (which means that vehicle action's skill fully applies, including specialisations):
Quote from: VR and Rigging (p266)
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re
in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat
Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions
, so
any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle
actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control
Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <03-02-19/1353:46> »
I'm not sure how what you're quoting is doing anything but support what I've been saying.

Let me try a different tack:

It sounds like you're saying it's possible to be doing something on the matrix without it being governed by a Matrix Action?  First of all, can you give any other (non-rigging) examples where it's possible to use the Matrix without using Matrix Actions?  Even ubiquitous activity like making commcalls/sending texts and googling info are governed by the Send Message and Matrix Search actions respectively.

In the case of piloting a vehicle or remotely firing a weapon, the Control Device Matrix Action is pretty inarguably the Matrix Action that covers it:

Quote from: Control Device, SR5 pg 238
...For example,
firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a
Gunnery + Agility test, and using a remote underwater
welder calls for a Nautical Mechanic + Logic test. All actions
you take while controlling a device use either the
normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating,
whichever is lower.

I suppose that answers my question upthread about limits... it's a real stealth "trap" to rigging to be caught with a RCC or Commlink that doesn't exceed what your vehicle/drone's limits would be...
« Last Edit: <03-02-19/1356:38> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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« Reply #5 on: <03-02-19/1603:34> »
It sounds like you're saying it's possible to be doing something on the matrix without it being governed by a Matrix Action?
No. What I'm saying (and the rules are saying in the Rigger section) is that when you are Jumped In, your Vehicle Actions ARE Matrix Actions. So you're not doing Matrix Action Control-Device: Gunnery, and you're not doing Matrix Action Jumped-In: You're doing Matrix Action: Vehicle Action Gunnery.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <03-02-19/2257:47> »
So, you're saying in order for Codeslinger to be benefitting a Rigger's actions while Jumped In it'd have to be Codeslinger: Pilot Ground Craft or Codeslinger: Gunnery, or so on?

I think I like that rationale from both the game balance and rules lawyering Points of View.

What about the Remote Control level of the command hierarchy? Codeslinger: Control Device seems pretty clear cut it'd be giving bonuses to every test involved at least at that level, but that's less of a game balance issue since few people beyond Riggers will invest heavily in drone operations, and the riggers will often prefer to use Jumped In.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

JudgeMonroe

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« Reply #7 on: <03-04-19/1515:05> »
You can almost sense the intention behind Codeslinger not being applicable to Control Device at all ("The character is adept at performing a particular Matrix action...This can only be selected for Matrix Actions (p. 237) that have a test associated with them.") but they didn't quite follow through enough.

Let's say you argue:

1. "Control Device" does not have a test associated with it; the action being directed is the action with which the test is associated. You cannot take Codeslinger (Control Device).

1A. "Control Device" has a test associated with it only when the directed action does not. You can take Codeslinger (Control Device) but it applies only to those actions that explicitly use the Control Device test.

2. A jumped-in rigger can "treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions" but that does not cause them to become Matrix actions, as you can "treat" any thing in the same way you "treat" any other thing, and this does not change either thing. You cannot take Codeslinger (Vehicle Action).

2A. In response to getting "any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in," since Codeslinger counts as "any bonus" then you can take Codeslinger (Vehicle Action), which is not the same as taking Codeslinger (Control Device).

3. The description for "Codeslinger" explicitly limits the Matrix Actions to which it may apply to those Matrix actions described starting on page 237, i.e., "first-class" Matrix actions, which implicitly excludes any other actions that may through some circumstance happen to be taken in the Matrix. You cannot take Codeslinger (Vehicle Action).

3A. The description for the control rig describes the rigger's VR experience as fundamentally different to a decker's such that there is no room for the kind of higher-level aptitude described by the Codeslinger quality to apply to the instinctual full-body VR of a jumped-in rigger, i.e., the rigger is taking actions, not writing code. You cannot take Codeslinger (Vehicle Action).

I think 1 and 1A can be independently true; either 2 or 2A can be provisionally true; 2A can be true only if you reject the premise of 3 and/or 3A.