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Shadowrun 6e Twilight Sins Ending

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #150 on: <09-23-19/1025:49> »
Damn, I want to turn the Karma system back on the boards to give PD +500.
The forum is using Life Modules now, not karmagen.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

FastJack

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« Reply #151 on: <09-23-19/1314:09> »
There is no such thing as a completely fresh perspective on the sixth edition of a 30 year old property that does nearly nothing to market itself to new gamers.

To be accurate, there have been 6 posts by different people on Reddit in just the last 5 days saying they are completely new to Shadowrun and asking about 6E.

Six posts.  On a community with 30,849 subscribers, much less readers.  Pardon me for a slight potential exaggeration.

I've been playing and GMing this game for over 20 years at this point, and I can say in all due honesty in the last 10 I've seen SR suggested to a new player by a game store once... and that was Anarchy, right at release.

Actually working with Actual Play groups is the biggest promotion of SR CGL's done in a decade.  The Year of Shadowrun stuff around the 5e release was the closest thing to real promotion, and most of that was the SRR kickstarter throwing them a bone.

Edit to add: Hell, the website still calls out 20A as the current core book.

https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/e-books/

'The Core Rulebooks expand on the various aspects found in the 20th Anniversary Edition Rulebook, providing a plethora of options: more guns, vehicles, and drones; more cyberware, bioware and new nanotechnology; more magic and the metaplanes; new hacking tricks and sprites; more character options…a host of optional rules for any character type.'
The new website is at ShadowrunSixthWorld.com, but I have to note they have no redirection on the old site to get there. But at least they are pointing to these forums from the old site. :D

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #152 on: <09-23-19/1326:09> »
6we has things that can be fairly criticized.

However, one thing that isn't a fair criticism is that it's not an outreach to gamers only familiar with games designed, oh...this century.  Even if it were a FU to gamers who've played SR for 20-30 years (and it isn't) it's still fundamentally an attempt to make the game more palatable to modern gaming tastes.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #153 on: <09-23-19/1346:37> »
6we has things that can be fairly criticized.

However, one thing that isn't a fair criticism is that it's not an outreach to gamers only familiar with games designed, oh...this century.  Even if it were a FU to gamers who've played SR for 20-30 years (and it isn't) it's still fundamentally an attempt to make the game more palatable to modern gaming tastes.

I agree that it was an attempt to make the game more broadly available and less intimidating to mainstream gamers, and I highly doubt CGL was actively trying to give veteran players the shaft. I do, however, disagree with how they implemented the changes.

On the surface, the Edge system (which is the core mechanic of the game this time around) is a more streamlined way to account for modifiers in a given situation. But once you start looking at all the options that add/remove/influence Edge values and generation, its not really any more or less simple than just adding or subtracting dice from a pool, which in 5th could mostly be tallied up prior to the game starting (i.e. mods for guns or programs that assisted matrix actions).

But the thing that got me more than anything else was the fact that now my Edge could reach across the table and muck with my opponents dice, and vice versa. I absolutely despise games that trigger gotcha moments like that. It doesn't feel like I actually accomplished the thing I was trying to accomplish (like winning a thumb war by using your pointer finger), and it puts GMs in a spot where they have to walk a tightrope between letting players off easy (not using NPC Edge enough) and becoming overly adversarial (storing and spending NPC Edge too effectively).

Granted, those are just my current opinions, which may or may not change when the second errata drops.

wraith

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« Reply #154 on: <09-23-19/1414:09> »
There is no such thing as a completely fresh perspective on the sixth edition of a 30 year old property that does nearly nothing to market itself to new gamers.

To be accurate, there have been 6 posts by different people on Reddit in just the last 5 days saying they are completely new to Shadowrun and asking about 6E.

Six posts.  On a community with 30,849 subscribers, much less readers.  Pardon me for a slight potential exaggeration.

I've been playing and GMing this game for over 20 years at this point, and I can say in all due honesty in the last 10 I've seen SR suggested to a new player by a game store once... and that was Anarchy, right at release.

Actually working with Actual Play groups is the biggest promotion of SR CGL's done in a decade.  The Year of Shadowrun stuff around the 5e release was the closest thing to real promotion, and most of that was the SRR kickstarter throwing them a bone.

Edit to add: Hell, the website still calls out 20A as the current core book.

https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/e-books/

'The Core Rulebooks expand on the various aspects found in the 20th Anniversary Edition Rulebook, providing a plethora of options: more guns, vehicles, and drones; more cyberware, bioware and new nanotechnology; more magic and the metaplanes; new hacking tricks and sprites; more character options…a host of optional rules for any character type.'
The new website is at ShadowrunSixthWorld.com, but I have to note they have no redirection on the old site to get there. But at least they are pointing to these forums from the old site. :D

Funny story about that:

"Need more info? Here’s what to look out for on both www.shadowrunsixthworld.com and www.shadowruntabletop.com, as well as the official Shadowrun and Catalyst Game Labs social media, and on the official Shadowrun forums over the next few weeks:

May 1: Initial Announcement
May 8: Product Overview
May 15: Developer Overview
May 22: Setting Overview/Fiction Announcement
May 29: Developer Q&A
June 5: Rigger Dossier
June 12: Shadowrun at Origins preview
More to follow"

The only place I can even find that new site mentioned on catalystgamelabs.com is a Randal Bills blog post from May.

I'm starting to think that CGL flatly doesn't -want- to promote their products, because they can't even manage a blog post every six months, much less updating links or website copy.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #155 on: <09-23-19/1452:54> »
Re-read my previous post and realise that I raised my concern about how the critique was done, not about the critique itself. Also, you might find out that I did edit my post and reflected, that my statements were driven by accumulated frustration from overall negativity with which the new system is greeted.

Are you still misunderstanding and / or misrepresenting the purpose of the video?

It isn't a review[1].

It isn't titled as a review.

It isn't presented as a review.

The title is literally "Why We Aren't Playing Shadowrun 6th Edition Any More."

Under that premise, the fact they included any positives about the system was a kindness that wasn't required.

[1] I don't deny that there are likely people who are trying to pass it off as a critical review.

penllawen

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« Reply #156 on: <09-23-19/1605:36> »
I agree that it was an attempt to make the game more broadly available and less intimidating to mainstream gamers, and I highly doubt CGL was actively trying to give veteran players the shaft. I do, however, disagree with how they implemented the changes.
I agree that was 6e’s goal, and I agree it is a noble goal. But I think 6e does a poor job at achieving it. There is too little coherency at the core of it. Edge is abstract and has too vague a link between cause and effect. Multiple subsystems have mechanics that are at odds with the narrative. Fundamental game balance issues from 5e have gone unaddressed.

These criticisms do not mean I disagree with the goals. I would have liked to see a genuinely streamlined and coherent system. But this ain’t it, chief.

wraith

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« Reply #157 on: <09-23-19/1923:07> »
Re-read my previous post and realise that I raised my concern about how the critique was done, not about the critique itself. Also, you might find out that I did edit my post and reflected, that my statements were driven by accumulated frustration from overall negativity with which the new system is greeted.

Are you still misunderstanding and / or misrepresenting the purpose of the video?

It isn't a review[1].

It isn't titled as a review.

It isn't presented as a review.

The title is literally "Why We Aren't Playing Shadowrun 6th Edition Any More."

Under that premise, the fact they included any positives about the system was a kindness that wasn't required.

[1] I don't deny that there are likely people who are trying to pass it off as a critical review.

Note also, that is the very definition of a tone argument.  If you have factual disagreements with their assessment, PD, trot 'em out for discussion.  Otherwise it starts to just look like sour grapes over someone committing the sin of not loving NERPS enough.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #158 on: <09-23-19/1945:29> »
I agree that was 6e’s goal, and I agree it is a noble goal. But I think 6e does a poor job at achieving it. There is too little coherency at the core of it. Edge is abstract and has too vague a link between cause and effect. Multiple subsystems have mechanics that are at odds with the narrative. Fundamental game balance issues from 5e have gone unaddressed.

These criticisms do not mean I disagree with the goals. I would have liked to see a genuinely streamlined and coherent system. But this ain’t it, chief.

+1 to all of that.

I still have some hope that they pull it off, and 6th becomes something most all of the community can enjoy. But it needs a LOT of work to get there.

And I'll say it for the Nth time, CGL needs to show progress toward this goal. Not veiled messages from the tongue-tied Errata team (side note: I really feel bad for the Errata team. They should be able to poll the forums and have community chats to hash out proposed rules changes, not be bound and gagged by NDA). Hardy, or some other high level CGL staffer, needs to get out into the spotlight and start combating all the negative press this edition is getting. They need to show that CGL cares about the issues this edition has, and that they are putting forth real effort to fix it. And they need to be transparent about it.

adzling

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« Reply #159 on: <09-24-19/1842:45> »
6we has things that can be fairly criticized.
 Even if it were a FU to gamers who've played SR for 20-30 years (and it isn't) it's still fundamentally an attempt to make the game more palatable to modern gaming tastes.

Stainless you know I love you ;-)

But sr6e is definitely a F.U. to the long time SRun players like myself who have been playing 20-30 years (30 years in my instance).

Why?

Because it tosses out all that shadowrun is based on (gritty, simulationist RPG) and replaces it with...oh man you know you don't want to get me started down this topic again...suffice to say a gamey boardgame mechanic that does not function to model the encounter space of srun in a reliable/ realistic manner.

the worst part about is it did not have to be this way.

they already had the "easier" shadowrun, called Anarchy. They could have built on that. But noooo they had to destroy the main property in their quest for noobs who were never the core audience of srun.

It's always been the "more adult" RPG with adult themes and deep crunch.

So yeah, Catalyst most definitely did make 6e a huge F.U. to the long time supporters of shadowrun who perhaps cared most about the game.

All for no gain.

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #160 on: <09-24-19/1847:03> »
Are you still misunderstanding and / or misrepresenting the purpose of the video?

It isn't a review[1].
It isn't titled as a review.
It isn't presented as a review.
The title is literally "Why We Aren't Playing Shadowrun 6th Edition Any More."
Under that premise, the fact they included any positives about the system was a kindness that wasn't required.
[1] I don't deny that there are likely people who are trying to pass it off as a critical review.

I never labelled that video as a review. I labelled the video as not constructive and biased. It was mentioned by the authors, they said themselves that they have a problem with Shadowrun in general, therefore the very name of the video can be questioned as irrelevant.

Note also, that is the very definition of a tone argument.  If you have factual disagreements with their assessment, PD, trot 'em out for discussion.  Otherwise it starts to just look like sour grapes over someone committing the sin of not loving NERPS enough.

If you are telling 12000 people something, make sure you have it right. Not a single mention " we reached out to CGL for a comment"  - which according to you, is what I am supposed to do concerning factual disagreements with authors.

Tone argument, would apply if the argument was constructed accordingly to previously mentioned standards, which was not. In addition calling out tone argument on me is actually using tone argument by yourself.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #161 on: <09-24-19/1855:01> »
If you are telling 12000 people something, make sure you have it right. Not a single mention " we reached out to CGL for a comment"  - which according to you, is what I am supposed to do concerning factual disagreements with authors.

Tone argument, would apply if the argument was constructed accordingly to previously mentioned standards, which was not. In addition calling out tone argument on me is actually using tone argument by yourself.
It has become VERY clear over the past weeks that ANY disagreement with criticism of CGL will be branded 'fanboyism without reason', just so they can ignore anyone disagreeing with them 'because they're just apologists' so obviously no opinion matters if it doesn't consider all of SR6 a dumpster fire. Tone argument is the least of the debate sins here. Just to show you how far people are reaching, the very use of "6w" as a label for Shadowrun Sixth World has been called 'a dividing of the community', while constantly calling people apologists is perfectly alright of course. My only advice to you at this point would be the very last line of "Dearest creature in creation".
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

GuardDuty

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« Reply #162 on: <09-24-19/1916:35> »
6we has things that can be fairly criticized.
 Even if it were a FU to gamers who've played SR for 20-30 years (and it isn't) it's still fundamentally an attempt to make the game more palatable to modern gaming tastes.

Stainless you know I love you ;-)

But sr6e is definitely a F.U. to the long time SRun players like myself who have been playing 20-30 years (30 years in my instance).

Why?

Because it tosses out all that shadowrun is based on (gritty, simulationist RPG) and replaces it with...oh man you know you don't want to get me started down this topic again...suffice to say a gamey boardgame mechanic that does not function to model the encounter space of srun in a reliable/ realistic manner.

the worst part about is it did not have to be this way.

they already had the "easier" shadowrun, called Anarchy. They could have built on that. But noooo they had to destroy the main property in their quest for noobs who were never the core audience of srun.

It's always been the "more adult" RPG with adult themes and deep crunch.

So yeah, Catalyst most definitely did make 6e a huge F.U. to the long time supporters of shadowrun who perhaps cared most about the game.

All for no gain.

I agree with your sentiments, but I do question the notion that new players were never the "core audience".  Even as far back as SRII CRB the developers acknowledged that a much greater number of new RPG players were purchasing and playing Shadowrun than they had intended, and the second edition was partially written to accommodate them specifically.  Each edition since has at some level had the goal of being more streamlined/easier to understand/lowering the barrier for entry.  I think it's been quite some time that "noobs" have been a firm part of the target audience.

I have no problem accepting the premise that they are in the minority of players, however.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #163 on: <09-24-19/1955:52> »
I never labelled that video as a review. I labelled the video as not constructive and biased. It was mentioned by the authors, they said themselves that they have a problem with Shadowrun in general, therefore the very name of the video can be questioned as irrelevant.

I think you might need to rename your forum account to Mobius...  You just twisted back into yourself and enter the realm of absurdity,


Let me see if I understand you:

If I was to write an article, or produce a video, titled "Why I hate Okra" (I really do), or "Why I'll never drive a Chevy Volt" (No idea why I picked the Volt...  Just needed to put something in there)...

If I wasn't unbiased and constructive the title would be irrelevant?

Bwahhhahahhaaa!

Good luck finding your credibility again.

FastJack

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« Reply #164 on: <09-24-19/2114:10> »
Are we done discussing the video? If so, let's get on to other topics and I'll lock this one since it's not serving any productive purpose.