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[SR4a] Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters

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rasmusnicolaj

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« Reply #150 on: <02-06-12/0350:40> »
I don't have my book at hand but I'm sure you can't get Armor 4 on a cyberlimb without also having a cybertorso.
But I could be wrong and anyway Armor 3 is still a good bonus.

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JustADude

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« Reply #151 on: <02-06-12/0444:38> »
I don't have my book at hand but I'm sure you can't get Armor 4 on a cyberlimb without also having a cybertorso.
But I could be wrong and anyway Armor 3 is still a good bonus.

I just did a quick check of the Cyberlimb sections of SR4A and Augmentation, and I'm not seeing anything about any restrictions on the Armor enhancement based on needing to have a torso installed. In fact, Armor is simply bundled into a single tiny section with the Agil/Str/Bod enhancements in SR4A (p344), and I didn't turn up any mention of the Armor enhancement at all Augmentation.

There is, however, a rule in Aug about Articulated Weapon Arm requiring a torso to install it, and Bulk Modification limits some of the smaller available bits to Rating 2, but nothing is mentioned about Armor.

Please feel free to double check me, though, as I'm rather frazzled from pulling one hellacious shift today, and I just checked the books, not any of the errata.
« Last Edit: <02-06-12/0510:03> by JustADude »
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Crash_00

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« Reply #152 on: <02-06-12/0611:28> »
In SR4 all cyberlimbs could not take cyberlimb enhancements over rating 3 without having a cybertorso as well. In SR4A I believe the restriction only applies to standard cyberlimbs. In SR4 customized limbs didn't exist, so I don't know if the change was intentional or not, but it appears it was to counteract not being able to get limbs better than your normal in the cases of some orcs and trolls.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #153 on: <02-06-12/0619:37> »
You indeed cannot take Armor 4 without a cybertorso. Armor is a type of enchancement. There's some funny wording but under Standard Cyberlimbs, it says you need a cybertorso to have enhancements over 3, and under Custom Cyberlimbs, it says they take enhancements using the same rules as standard cyberlimbs.

This is a good idea too, because enhancements over 3 is the big selling point of the otherwise pricey and not-very-useful cybertorso.

Crash_00

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« Reply #154 on: <02-06-12/0812:42> »
Quote
under Custom Cyberlimbs, it says they take enhancements using the same rules as standard cyberlimbs.

That's not actually what it says though. It says they have all the same stats as standard cyberlimbs other than the customizable attributes.

Quote
This is a good idea too, because enhancements over 3 is the big selling point of the otherwise pricey and not-very-useful cybertorso.
I completely agree that they should require a cybertorso, but the restriction on enhancement levels is not part of the stat block, so I don't think it actually says that they do right now. In addition, the restriction should be under cyberlimb enhancements (like it was in SR4 BBB) if it were applied to both. To top it off, the wording was changed to specifically indicate standard cyberlimbs rather than all:
SR4 BBB
Only characters with a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.
SR4A Core
On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.

All together it appears that the dev team either didn't think custom limbs should be subject to the restriction, or they made a series of changes that coincidentally made it appear that there was a clear intention.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #155 on: <02-06-12/1320:17> »
I think you might be right about this one. The Archetypes are going to stick with the assumption that you do need a cybertorso for enchancements over rating 3 because of the "go with the more conservative interpretation on fuzzy rules" design principle, but I can see GMs ruling differently.

Demonthresis

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« Reply #156 on: <02-11-12/2327:36> »
So I was using your Archetypes to help me in character creation (huge help btw thanks a ton!) and my DM said I was incorrectly using Skinlink.  From the SR4A, Skinlink is very ambiguously defined and does not have a set Slots variable.  I was using Skinlink just like you, with a Skinlinked set of Contacts (Rating 2) with two upgrades to the contacts.  However, on page 151 of Arsenal, Skinlink is identified as using 1 slot.   Also, on page 196 of Unwired, certain modifications from pages 148-153 of Arsenal (including Skinlink) may be applied to other electronics.  I would assume that Contacts count as electronics.  Just wanted to bring this to your attention, thanks again for all the awesome work with the Characters.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #157 on: <02-11-12/2354:00> »
That gets into odd issues. The short version:

There's a skinlink mod, and also a skinlink accessory. The accessory is described on SR4A 328. The mod is described on Arsenal 153, and is not quite the same - the mod is for guns (and by Unwired, also for Commlinks) and takes up slots, but also has the benefit that you can set it to skinlink by default and go wireless if the skinlink breaks. This being shadowrun, both have the same name. It's kind of like how you can put a Gas-Vent 3 accessory in your gun, or you can put a Gas-Vent 3 mod in your gun, and they have the same name but are not the same thing. See Arsenal 148 "Modifications vs. Accessories."

Things get really screwy if you try to put the Skinlink mod on things that aren't commlinks, because it does not take up capacity, it takes up mod slots. Rating 2 contacts have 2 capacity. How many mod slots do they have? Nobody knows (probably 4, since commlinks have 4, but this isn't stated anywhere).

For this reason, I didn't mess around with the skinlink mod (because it's not worth a slot on weapons, and the rules for modding it onto things that aren't weapons or commlinks are unclear).

Demonthresis

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« Reply #158 on: <02-12-12/0020:53> »
Unwired not only adds these mods for commlinks but also "may be applied to electronics."  The differentiation in Arsenal seems to address the amount of skill required to install an upgrade (be it mod or accessory) to a firearm, commlink or piece of electronics.  The Skinlink Mod on Arsenal 151 has price and availability as the Skinlink Accessory on SR4A 328.  Obviously rules cannot answer every possible question and we cannot know how the developers feel until it is added to the FAQ/Errata listing.  Personally I think it is circumventing the intention of the rule by not using a slot on a device because of a loophole.  Every other item on the Accessory listing on SR4A 328 with the exception of Skinlink is an external device designed to stand alone or plug into another device.  Even if you view Skinlink as an accessory you can purchase included in new gear, say going to the shop and choosing between glasses or skinlinked glasses, the skinlink software/program/however it works is still loaded on the device.  However, since it is an upgrade purchased in addition (even though it is at time of purchase and not a mod done later on) it does not come standard with the item and should not be included with examples of guns coming with mods already installed but not counting to the limit.

Obviously every DM will have his own interpretation of this rule until an official ruling has been made.  But logically I believe that counting skinlink as its Mod stats indicate is the proper way.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #159 on: <02-12-12/0622:27> »
It actually doesn't really change anything if you replace all the skinlink accessories with skinlink mods. I don't think there are any skinlinked weapons, and none of the other stuff that got skinlinked was using all its mod slots.

I think you're getting capacity and mod slots confused. For example, rating 2 contacts have a capacity of 2. They also have some number (not listed anywhere) of mod slots. Skinlink mod takes up one of the mod slots. The other stuff you might want (eg, upgrades like Vision Enhancement) takes up capacity. Those are different things and they don't affect one another.
« Last Edit: <02-12-12/0625:14> by UmaroVI »

Demonthresis

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« Reply #160 on: <02-12-12/1943:52> »
I am having trouble finding the rules giving both accessory capacity and mod capacity, can you please provide a page where this information can be found?  I would like to be able to bring evidence of this claim to my DM to allow the use of these items.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #161 on: <02-12-12/2043:50> »
Capacity is defined on SR4A 310. Sensors have their capacity listed on SR4A 332 (for example, Contacts have Capacity=Rating).

Arsenal 129 defines slots and slot maximum. Unwired 196 says that commlinks have 4 modification slots. As far as I know, nothing states how many modification slots an electronic device that isn't a weapon, commlink, or vehicles has. Arsenal 129 just says " At the gamemaster’s discretion, other gear may have slot maximums as well, though he will need to decide these values on his own."

SR is pretty sloppy about terms for the most part, but this is one of the few cases where someone actually thought about words meaning things, and so both Capacity and Slot Maximum are defined. Part of the confusion is likely that the notation for the number of mod slots is
  • and so is the notation for capacity, so I can see how someone my be confused into thinking they are synonyms.

Crash_00

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« Reply #162 on: <02-12-12/2245:59> »
To further add to it, I know that at least one version of chummer had skinlink take capacity as well.

I've got to agree with Umaro. There are two distinct versions of Skinlink (Accessory and Mod). Mod Slots do not equal capacity, and there is no limit to how many mods a generic electronic device can have RAW. Likewise there isn't really any limit to how many accessories a generic electronic device can have.

The important thing here is the wording. There is no such thing as "accessory capacity" or "mod capacity". There is only capacity for sensors, and in the case of visual sensors (contacts, glasses, cameras, etc.), capacity is used to represent the rule that states "The ratings of vision sensors and imaging devices equals the number of vision enhancements that can be applied to the device." Pg. 332, SR4A. You can note that it specifically states vision enhancements here with no mention of accessories or mods.

Modification are limited by "slots" rather than capacity. Likewise accessories are limited by "mounts" instead of capacity.

Keep in mind that the GM has final say though.

Orvich

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« Reply #163 on: <02-15-12/0134:58> »
I'm a bit off the current topic, but hey:

I don't know if it's been requested, but what about a good social/infiltration adept? Able both to b&e if needed, and charm his/her way in, no real requirement to be a combat monster. Kind of like a combo of the Negotiator and Spook archetypes you've got up, but something more like a 'Bond-Spy' character. I'm trying to build one and having a little bit of trouble figuring out how to not shoot myself in the foot with powers vs ware and stats.

EDIT: Also, on the Negotiator, why is IR only 2.5 points?
« Last Edit: <02-15-12/0140:10> by Orvich »

UmaroVI

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« Reply #164 on: <02-15-12/0717:36> »
Are you looking at the SR4 costs? SR4A updated Increased Reflexes it to 1.5/2.5/4.

The problem Adepts run into is that they suck pretty badly at being flexible. Adepts are good at being specialists, but bad at being generalists. Once you try to cover more than either just combat, or combat+1 other thing, adepts start running into severe issues (combat + one other thing is more doable because it's easy to pick up combat on the side).

I'll put that on the list of possible new archetypes. For the moment, let me see if I can give you an idea of where to go.

That said, I think the way to go would be Mind over Matter (Logic->Agility). That would allow a high Logic to cover Infiltration and enough basic combat skills to not suck terribly, and also allows for good Hardware. I would probably go with 1 points of magic loss for Tailored Pheremones 3 (.6) and Cerebral Boosters 2 (.4)

After gameplay starts, install another point of 'ware and then buy your magic back up to 4 with karma (for 20 karma). You eventually will want something like Tailored Pheremones 3, Cerebral Boosters 3, Cyber Lower Leg with Nanohive+Neocortical, and PuSHeD, plus some reflex recorders, then fill up with either another cyber partial limb, or with comedy ware.

That leaves you with 4 PP. Grab Mind over Matter, IR 1, Commanding Voice, Kinesics 1, and Improved Noncombat Ability: Something 1 (probably Hardware or a social skill). When you can buy Magic 5, you can get Kinesics 3, and then after that you can choose between getting more Improved Reflexes or getting Improved Noncombat Ability.

If Ways are allowed to you, Speaker's Way makes this better.

At that point, just get your stats and skills. You need high Charisma and Logic, but don't need Agility, so you should either be an Elf or a Human. I think from there it should be doable.