Shadowrun

Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Lormyr on <08-05-20/0751:27>

Title: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-05-20/0751:27>
A few points, praises, and criticisms worth bringing up:

Downtime
Overall I like the way this was implemented, especially ditching training times for adding value to Lifestyle choice instead, which previously has basically been an irrelevant choice.

On the other hand, I think that the 1 major/1 minor or 3 minor actions between each Mission is really going to limit the building and growth of some character types. Especially when you consider wanting to work for the man/people, there is too much to do for some characters and being that limited won't allow for a fraction of it unless the karma and nuyen rewards are being substantially reduced from Chicago's Season.

Augmented Skills
I see that SSDR's preferred interpretation of the skill augmentation made it to the FAQ. Overall it is a fine way to run the rule, but it does leave a few odd inconsistencies that I think need considered.

For example, any foci that adds to a skill roll (such as power, spellcasting, summoning, ect.) has no value in being over rating 4, but others that do not add to a skill roll (such as centering and qi) still go as high as you care to afford. It just makes for a really unsophisticated application to me.

Bioware/Cyberware
I know this rule existed previously as well, but I personally can't think of any good reason why we shouldn't allow characters to purchase used cultured bioware. Can someone explain to me why that choice was made?

Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-05-20/0816:17>
A few points, praises, and criticisms worth bringing up:

Downtime
Overall I like the way this was implemented, especially ditching training times for adding value to Lifestyle choice instead, which previously has basically been an irrelevant choice.

On the other hand, I think that the 1 major/1 minor or 3 minor actions between each Mission is really going to limit the building and growth of some character types. Especially when you consider wanting to work for the man/people, there is too much to do for some characters and being that limited won't allow for a fraction of it unless the karma and nuyen rewards are being substantially reduced from Chicago's Season.

Augmented Skills
I see that SSDR's preferred interpretation of the skill augmentation made it to the FAQ. Overall it is a fine way to run the rule, but it does leave a few odd inconsistencies that I think need considered.

For example, any foci that adds to a skill roll (such as power, spellcasting, summoning, ect.) has no value in being over rating 4, but others that do not add to a skill roll (such as centering and qi) still go as high as you care to afford. It just makes for a really unsophisticated application to me.

Bioware/Cyberware
I know this rule existed previously as well, but I personally can't think of any good reason why we shouldn't allow characters to purchase used cultured bioware. Can someone explain to me why that choice was made?

I believe it's due to Cultured Bioware being extremely tailored to a specific individual, so much so that it's effectively a tailored made organ specifically for their body, vs none cultured bioware that is more generic in nature.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-05-20/0825:56>
I believe it's due to Cultured Bioware being extremely tailored to a specific individual, so much so that it's effectively a tailored made organ specifically for their body, vs none cultured bioware that is more generic in nature.

I get that logic. My point is the core rules do not use that logic though, as used cultured bioware is allowed in general for the game, so why do we feel the need to disallow that for Missions? It's not exactly a game balance problem.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: penllawen on <08-05-20/0853:09>
Downtime
Overall I like the way this was implemented, especially ditching training times for adding value to Lifestyle choice instead, which previously has basically been an irrelevant choice.
Hah! Seems to have ended up in a very similar place to my own downtime houserules (https://paydata.org/houserules/characters/downtime/). And, I note, yeeted SR6's training times into the sun, where they belong.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Beta on <08-05-20/0943:19>
Where are you finding this?  I don't see a link on this forum?
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: penllawen on <08-05-20/0945:16>
Where are you finding this?  I don't see a link on this forum?
I had to dig it out of the SRM discord, which is linked from the SRM website.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-05-20/0946:49>
It got posted on the Discord for now, I'm guessing it will be officially posted soonish (might be checking into a slightly-fixed v1.1 due to typos?).
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Hobbes on <08-05-20/1002:28>
I believe it's due to Cultured Bioware being extremely tailored to a specific individual, so much so that it's effectively a tailored made organ specifically for their body, vs none cultured bioware that is more generic in nature.

I get that logic. My point is the core rules do not use that logic though, as used cultured bioware is allowed in general for the game, so why do we feel the need to disallow that for Missions? It's not exactly a game balance problem.

Beta and Delta grades are also allowed at char gen in the CRB, but not for Missions.  I'm not sure why as Nuyen/Essence sliders were never really an issue. 

The rest I thought was good.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-05-20/1058:05>
A few points, praises, and criticisms worth bringing up:

Downtime
Overall I like the way this was implemented, especially ditching training times for adding value to Lifestyle choice instead, which previously has basically been an irrelevant choice.

Glad to hear you like it! Making lifestyle count for more was a personal priority.  And though this, we even found a way to un-ban the Street lifestyle!

Quote
On the other hand, I think that the 1 major/1 minor or 3 minor actions between each Mission is really going to limit the building and growth of some character types. Especially when you consider wanting to work for the man/people, there is too much to do for some characters and being that limited won't allow for a fraction of it unless the karma and nuyen rewards are being substantially reduced from Chicago's Season.

The opportunity cost is the intended point.  Not only are training times yeeted, it's now more comparatively attractive to invest karma in attributes and skills than on things like spells that have a tiny (karma) cost for huge benefit. 

Quote
Augmented Skills
I see that SSDR's preferred interpretation of the skill augmentation made it to the FAQ. Overall it is a fine way to run the rule, but it does leave a few odd inconsistencies that I think need considered.

For example, any foci that adds to a skill roll (such as power, spellcasting, summoning, ect.) has no value in being over rating 4, but others that do not add to a skill roll (such as centering and qi) still go as high as you care to afford. It just makes for a really unsophisticated application to me.

Well, it remains to be seen how BGCs will work this time around.  But if they work like they did in 5e, a rating 6 focus still works in a rating 4 or 5 background count, whereas the rating 4won't.

Furthermore, you're overlooking negative dice.  -2 dice from damage and +6 dice from gear puts you at a net of +4, which caps out your augmented skill still.  The rating 4 focus would have only put you at a net +2.

Quote
Bioware/Cyberware
I know this rule existed previously as well, but I personally can't think of any good reason why we shouldn't allow characters to purchase used cultured bioware. Can someone explain to me why that choice was made?

Campaign availability restriction.  Think of it like Neo-Tokyo altering the availability of guns.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-05-20/1143:35>
Beta and Delta grades are also allowed at char gen in the CRB, but not for Missions.  I'm not sure why as Nuyen/Essence sliders were never really an issue. 

The rest I thought was good.

Very true, and also unnecessary imo.

The opportunity cost is the intended point.  Not only are training times yeeted, it's now more comparatively attractive to invest karma in attributes and skills than on things like spells that have a tiny (karma) cost for huge benefit.

See, I am fine with the concept of a time limit opportunity cost, but I can tell just by looking at that chart, knowing character build options, and the cost of those options that it is going to be too restrictive if the average 7 karma/12,000Y per mission carries over from Chicago. There will be points that cannot get spent in some cases, which is silly.

The better choice would have just been to alter spell costs if cost for impact is a concern, or you know, just have balanced the base system better. . .(this is the only jab I'll take, I promise!)

Well, it remains to be seen how BGCs will work this time around.  But if they work like they did in 5e, a rating 6 focus still works in a rating 4 or 5 background count, whereas the rating 4won't.

Furthermore, you're overlooking negative dice.  -2 dice from damage and +6 dice from gear puts you at a net of +4, which caps out your augmented skill still.  The rating 4 focus would have only put you at a net +2.

So here is my problem with this.

1. BGC don't exist. So interpreting a rule for a thing that doesn't exist is pointless unless/until it does.

2. The logic of the negative dice example doesn't flow for me. I have magic 6 + spellcasting 6 + 2 specialization + 4 spellcasting focus for 18 dice. If I take a negative 2 from to that pool from something how does that alter or change the fact that my pool has still already been augmented by +4?

If we are going to go with a skill test can bear +4 dice after all modifications (both pos and negative) are factored in that is fine, but you have to admit that is just a really sloppy "fix".

Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Hobbes on <08-05-20/1230:57>

Furthermore, you're overlooking negative dice.  -2 dice from damage and +6 dice from gear puts you at a net of +4, which caps out your augmented skill still.  The rating 4 focus would have only put you at a net +2.


I don't think I've ever seen Augmented caps interpreted that way.  If that were the case, there would be a pretty solid argument for running +6 or so a character's primary Attribute. 
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Hobbes on <08-05-20/1238:50>


Bioware/Cyberware
I know this rule existed previously as well, but I personally can't think of any good reason why we shouldn't allow characters to purchase used cultured bioware. Can someone explain to me why that choice was made?

Campaign availability restriction.  Think of it like Neo-Tokyo altering the availability of guns.

But the CRB "Campaign" is set in Seattle by default and so is Missions.  The Neo-Tokyo (and London) weapon restrictions represent game world fluff that Firearms are more difficult / illegal / whatever.  There isn't any fluff that 'ware is more restricted/less available in Seattle.  Quite the opposite, IMO.  I didn't get the need to restrict 'ware grades in 5th, I don't see the need in 6th.  But it's a minor deal, just less clicks on the Essence/Nuyen slider.

Overall, I think it's an improvement from the 5E Missions FAQ.  And includes some nice QoL improvements/clarifications for 6th edition.  You all did a great job on it!
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-05-20/1250:42>
The opportunity cost is the intended point.  Not only are training times yeeted, it's now more comparatively attractive to invest karma in attributes and skills than on things like spells that have a tiny (karma) cost for huge benefit.

See, I am fine with the concept of a time limit opportunity cost, but I can tell just by looking at that chart, knowing character build options, and the cost of those options that it is going to be too restrictive if the average 7 karma/12,000Y per mission carries over from Chicago. There will be points that cannot get spent in some cases, which is silly.

I don't follow what you're saying in the bolded portion.  Or rather, if I DO understand, it's so obviously false that I think I must be misunderstanding what you're saying.

It costs nothing, opportunity-wise, to train attributes, skills, and qualities.  It only costs karma (edit: ok, yes. and some nuyen).  Spend it and done. Literally that simple.  So no I can't imagine any case where you are literally have so much karma you are unable to spend the karma. 

Now if you're saying that "maybe you don't want to spend karma on attributes, skills, and qualities.  Maybe you got those as high as you'll ever need in chargen, and all you want to do is spend karma on initiating and more spells from here on out".  if so: it's still not mathematically correct.  The most chargen karma SRM allows you to carry over as fully fungible karma is 5.  That means the most karma you can likely have on hand at the first opportunity to spend karma post-chargen is 10-12.  You can learn up to 3 spells after your first mission, which that won't cover.  And learning 7-ish karma per mission thereafter isn't going to accrue more karma than you can spend solely on non attribute/skill/quality purposes.


Quote
The better choice would have just been to alter spell costs if cost for impact is a concern, or you know, just have balanced the base system better. . .(this is the only jab I'll take, I promise!)

Revamping the karma costs for character development was a step too far for SRM's mission.  Inventing a between-missions mechanic from whole cloth is acceptable because SRM GMs can't adjudicate between-mission activities without breaking the 4 hour time block constraint or avoiding use of non-sanctioned adventuring material.

Quote
Well, it remains to be seen how BGCs will work this time around.  But if they work like they did in 5e, a rating 6 focus still works in a rating 4 or 5 background count, whereas the rating 4won't.

Furthermore, you're overlooking negative dice.  -2 dice from damage and +6 dice from gear puts you at a net of +4, which caps out your augmented skill still.  The rating 4 focus would have only put you at a net +2.

So here is my problem with this.

1. BGC don't exist. So interpreting a rule for a thing that doesn't exist is pointless unless/until it does.

BGCs don't factor into the reasoning behind how the augmented skill rule was interpreted.  I brought it up because you alleged that R6 Foci have no value beyond F4, and that's a potential counter-example to a +4 dice cap either way.

Quote
2. The logic of the negative dice example doesn't flow for me. I have magic 6 + spellcasting 6 + 2 specialization + 4 spellcasting focus for 18 dice. If I take a negative 2 from to that pool from something how does that alter or change the fact that my pool has still already been augmented by +4?

If we are going to go with a skill test can bear +4 dice after all modifications (both pos and negative) are factored in that is fine, but you have to admit that is just a really sloppy "fix".

Ok.

So rolling a skill test, whether it's an unopposed success test or an opposed test, has the following in common:

The pool is assembled by A+B+C+D+E.  A is your raw attribute.  B is your bonuses to A, and has a cap of +4. C is your raw skill.  D is your expertise/specialization, if you have it.  E is everything else, and (under this interpretation/clarification) is capped at +4.

It doesn't seem sloppy to me... it seems the opposite really.  Simple and streamlined.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-05-20/1406:26>
Now if you're saying that "maybe you don't want to spend karma on attributes, skills, and qualities.  Maybe you got those as high as you'll ever need in chargen, and all you want to do is spend karma on initiating and more spells from here on out".  if so: it's still not mathematically correct.  The most chargen karma SRM allows you to carry over as fully fungible karma is 5.  That means the most karma you can likely have on hand at the first opportunity to spend karma post-chargen is 10-12.  You can learn up to 3 spells after your first mission, which that won't cover.  And learning 7-ish karma per mission thereafter isn't going to accrue more karma than you can spend solely on non attribute/skill/quality purposes.

This is closer to what I meant, but I had missed the part of the FAQ limiting carry over karma, which mostly solves the issue.

BGCs don't factor into the reasoning behind how the augmented skill rule was interpreted.  I brought it up because you alleged that R6 Foci have no value beyond F4, and that's a potential counter-example to a +4 dice cap either way.
\

All I am saying is the potential counter-example is only relevant if BGC do function that way.

The pool is assembled by A+B+C+D+E.  A is your raw attribute.  B is your bonuses to A, and has a cap of +4. C is your raw skill.  D is your expertise/specialization, if you have it.  E is everything else, and (under this interpretation/clarification) is capped at +4.

It doesn't seem sloppy to me... it seems the opposite really.  Simple and streamlined.

I suspect we just won't agree here, so I won't try to convince you. Just to clarify my point of what I meant by sloppy though, I meant the fact that one of the primary selling points on the new edge system was to eradicate shifting modifiers math. Yet we still have quite a few of them, and this rule interpretation (which I overall support) just further plays into what the edge system was meant to do away with, or make easier.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-05-20/1630:28>
Reduction is not eradication.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-05-20/1645:10>
The pool is assembled by A+B+C+D+E.  A is your raw attribute.  B is your bonuses to A, and has a cap of +4. C is your raw skill.  D is your expertise/specialization, if you have it.  E is everything else, and (under this interpretation/clarification) is capped at +4.

It doesn't seem sloppy to me... it seems the opposite really.  Simple and streamlined.

I suspect we just won't agree here, so I won't try to convince you. Just to clarify my point of what I meant by sloppy though, I meant the fact that one of the primary selling points on the new edge system was to eradicate shifting modifiers math. Yet we still have quite a few of them, and this rule interpretation (which I overall support) just further plays into what the edge system was meant to do away with, or make easier.
Reduction is not eradication.

and putting an arbitrary cap on how big the modifications can get is also going in line with minimizing (but as MC said, not eradicating) the impact of dice modifications. 

Well.. positive dice pool modifications anyway.  again we don't know if BGCs are coming back and if so in what form... but I would bet (not that I KNOW) that it'll be similar to 5e because the Matrix Noise mechanic is still -dice.

Lormyr you're right in that there's some inherent schizophrenia in the system with regards to dice pool mods vs edge mods... but that's not something SRM or even errata can address.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: penllawen on <08-06-20/1308:36>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-06-20/1412:17>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.

Any that use Logic
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-06-20/1737:06>
and putting an arbitrary cap on how big the modifications can get is also going in line with minimizing (but as MC said, not eradicating) the impact of dice modifications. 

Well.. positive dice pool modifications anyway.  again we don't know if BGCs are coming back and if so in what form... but I would bet (not that I KNOW) that it'll be similar to 5e because the Matrix Noise mechanic is still -dice.

I suspect that BGC will also still inflict dice penalties, but I also can't be sure since they are going to have to change how they otherwise worked, for example lowering the force of spells, which no longer exists.

Lormyr you're right in that there's some inherent schizophrenia in the system with regards to dice pool mods vs edge mods... but that's not something SRM or even errata can address.

I'd just like to see superior consistency and balance man. Some of the new supplements have helped, but the core system is still too disjointed for my liking or to respect. I wish you guys that worked on the FAQ had a more direct hand on the actual rules, because even if I disagreed with your specific design goals, your work demonstrates they would at least be consistent and clearly written.

Setting aside my nitpick about training options being a bit too premium, dislike for making used cultured bioware completely unavailable, and opinion that the chosen interpretation for Anticipation is just flat incorrect compared to what is written (but fuck that edge action, it would ludicrous to begin with), the FAQ is overall good, you guys did a good job.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Banshee on <08-07-20/1449:21>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.

That's because Analytical Mind is an Errata issue and the FAQ is not meant to cover errata ... only Missions campaign clarifications
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: penllawen on <08-07-20/1527:24>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.

That's because Analytical Mind is an Errata issue and the FAQ is not meant to cover errata ... only Missions campaign clarifications
Was it covered off in errata? I might have missed it.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-07-20/1547:18>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.

That's because Analytical Mind is an Errata issue and the FAQ is not meant to cover errata ... only Missions campaign clarifications
Was it covered off in errata? I might have missed it.

Errata has left Analytical Mind unchanged.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Banshee on <08-07-20/1910:54>
I just noticed (well, someone just pointed out to me) that there's no guidance for GMs on what rolls Analytical Mind can be applied to. That surprises me.

That's because Analytical Mind is an Errata issue and the FAQ is not meant to cover errata ... only Missions campaign clarifications
Was it covered off in errata? I might have missed it.

Errata has left Analytical Mind unchanged.

So far ..  i still hold out hope
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1035:39>
Some further thoughts:

Is using professional services to buy Quickened spells intended to work with NPCs, PCs, or both? Additionally, in the case of NPCs, you may want to add a note for determining their dice pool, otherwise there is no standard for how many hits they can buy.

Also, is this intended to function only after chargen? As currently written I see no reason why a PC couldn't buy a suite of quickened spells with starting cash if they wished.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1207:22>
IIRC it's classified as a downtime activity*, and you can't do any downtime activities until after your first SRM.



*EDIT:  I mean buying professional services outside a session.  But obviously you can't be simultaneously in chargen and mid-session...
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1228:36>
It is listed under "Questions about Playing in Missions", and makes no mention of downtime.

What about ‘professional services’? Can I pay the decker to find gear for or pay a mage to quicken a spell on my character?
Yes, however the service must be paid for in full before the benefit can be applied. A decker must be reimbursed for the gear AND paid any commission before the gear can be turned over, a mage must be paid the full agreed upon price before expending karma to quicken a spell, etc. As stated previously, the difference in value cannot be more than 5,000¥. (Additionally, see section 8 for notes on Quickening)

Also, even if it was, this does nothing to address how many hits the NPC mage can buy. It really needs a hard formula, like 5,000Y per hit up to 4 hits.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1238:52>
Well chargen is a solo activity.  there is no NPC or PC mage to sell you quickened spells.  That can only happen during play, or in between play.   Chargen is not in between play.


Edit:  In the case of NPC dice pools... they roll Connectionx2 for all dice rolls.  If it's not a contact... well obviously you need a GM and it should be equally obvious that you can only use those sorts of NPCs mid-mission when you have the GM.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1251:58>
Well chargen is a solo activity.  there is no NPC or PC mage to sell you quickened spells.  That can only happen during play, or in between play.   Chargen is not in between play.

To be clear I am also against allowing this at chargen, but I do think the section would benefit from an added line stating so. It would not be illogical for one to assume all manner of interactions happen with NPCs leading up to start of play, not the least of which is who sold you all that gear?

Edit:  In the case of NPC dice pools... they roll Connectionx2 for all dice rolls.  If it's not a contact... well obviously you need a GM and it should be equally obvious that you can only use those sorts of NPCs mid-mission when you have the GM.

I think this is a mistake regarding the non-contact portion. One GM's "wtf 3 hits is way too generous" is another's "only 3? go ahead and buy up to 7". Table consistency is one of the most important aspects of living campaigns imo.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1322:56>
I think this is a mistake regarding the non-contact portion. One GM's "wtf 3 hits is way too generous" is another's "only 3? go ahead and buy up to 7". Table consistency is one of the most important aspects of living campaigns imo.

Hence the requirement for all quickened spells to use the buying successes rule.  Even mid-session.

Heck, ALL downtime rolls must buy hits, for that matter.  Quickened spells are special only in that you must buy hits during play, too.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-13-20/1332:05>
I know Lormyr disagrees but I wish they had got rid of all the permanent sustaining methods for mages. You want +4 agility at all times, buy ware.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1336:31>
I know Lormyr disagrees but I wish they had got rid of all the permanent sustaining methods for mages. You want +4 agility at all times, buy ware.

Personally.. I agree.  That's the "price" of quick and easy and no essence cost and immunity to hacking (and essentially no nuyen cost, at least compared to the nuyen cost of 'ware): it goes away easy.  Easy come MUST be easy go.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1403:07>
Hence the requirement for all quickened spells to use the buying successes rule.  Even mid-session.

Heck, ALL downtime rolls must buy hits, for that matter.  Quickened spells are special only in that you must buy hits during play, too.

I may not have been clear, let me try again. Yes, I agree. The issue is that we know a PC's dice pools, we know a Contacts dice pools (Connection x2 as you informed me of above), but we do not know random non-contact NPC's dice pools. If a PC chooses to get quickening from that route we need a formula for that that is not GM fiat, since that can and will lead to wild inconsistency.

Edit 2: Unless you mean that the only non-PC, non-Contact NPC source that can be used is a named, statted mage with quickening present in the Mission where the quickening is purchased?

I know Lormyr disagrees but I wish they had got rid of all the permanent sustaining methods for mages. You want +4 agility at all times, buy ware.

Yeah. If I was making a wish it would be that the general magic system was more balanced so that quickening attributes seemed like less of a big deal to those it bothers and everyone could have augmented attributes (to some degree) without fucking their archetype.

Edit: Something like adepts can use powers to augmented physical stats, mages spells for mental ones, and ware does a combination of all because it is the most costly.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1528:51>
Hence the requirement for all quickened spells to use the buying successes rule.  Even mid-session.

Heck, ALL downtime rolls must buy hits, for that matter.  Quickened spells are special only in that you must buy hits during play, too.

I may not have been clear, let me try again. Yes, I agree. The issue is that we know a PC's dice pools, we know a Contacts dice pools (Connection x2 as you informed me of above), but we do not know random non-contact NPC's dice pools. If a PC chooses to get quickening from that route we need a formula for that that is not GM fiat, since that can and will lead to wild inconsistency.

Edit 2: Unless you mean that the only non-PC, non-Contact NPC source that can be used is a named, statted mage with quickening present in the Mission where the quickening is purchased?

Well in the case of Increasing an attribute, the extent of the variation that is possible is +1 to +4.  I'm not sure I agree that counts as the potential for wild variation.
So, sure there's the other spells that give bonuses that are not subject to augmented limits. What's to keep a GM from letting someone quicken Improved Invisibility or Armor on themselves with a ridiculous number of hits?

Since it's bought hits, the NPC spellcaster must have had a dice pool of 4xnet hits.  Even if you want +5 to something, then the GM invented a NPC for the mission with 20+ dice pool. Is there wild variation between GMs thinking 20-ish dice is unreasonable for an unwritten NPC? 

Maybe?  It depends on what you call wild variation, and that's gonna end up being opinion based, rather than objective.  SRM's already got a couple rules to address this indirectly.  There's the In GM We Trust to allow a GM to insert un-written factors into the mission.  There's also the In Player We Trust to be inclined to take their word for "that last GM signed off on it".  And on the other side to bound things in is the rule about GMs not going overboard with rewards, like not giving players Lowfyr as a contact.  Due to the requirement for buying hits, by the time a quickened spell is strong enough to be problematic it should be fairly easy for reasonable people to determine if the NPC who cast it had an inappropriate dice pool.

And more than that... unlike having say a Banshee LAV or being best buddies with Lowfyr, a quickened spell is trivially easy to just take away by any subsequent GM.  All an astrally projecting NPC mage only needs is 4 dice in their Sorcery pool to casually rip the spell down 1 hit at a time.  If a mundane even noticed what was happening (and that's a big if), there's drek-all he could do to stop it.  Or of course, you know.  The old "oops you walked thru a mana barrier.  Lol!" trick in the GM book.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1539:10>
Practically speaking, for what I anticipate to be the most used quickening (attributes), you're right. Anything past 4 hits doesn't matter a lot other than for dispelling, but that is a factor. If I was min-maxing (and I usually am) I'd buy as many hits with as much drain as possible specifically for the purpose of acting as a dispelling buffer. I just think it would benefit from a hard universal formula, basically x money for x hits. Food for thought.

That said, I will be flat out amazed if the coming magic book doesn't make more hits very desirable for new spell options. My expectation is the magic power creep will be awe inspiring, but I would love to be proven wrong.

I am also interested to see how liberal GMs are with the dispels since the FAQ basically gives GM a license for corp and law enforcement to do it willy nilly. While I think those entities employing those tactics in non-combat scenarios is acceptable, I also think it should only come after a warning they can't enter the premises like that and/or after a failed license check. After all, if you have a license that passes check, law enforcement then just stripping them anyway would itself be illegal, not to mention a flat out dick GM move.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1551:47>
Practically speaking, for what I anticipate to be the most used quickening (attributes), you're right. Anything past 4 hits doesn't matter a lot other than for dispelling, but that is a factor. If I was min-maxing (and I usually am) I'd buy as many hits with as much drain as possible specifically for the purpose of acting as a dispelling buffer. I just think it would benefit from a hard universal formula, basically x money for x hits. Food for thought.

The way I read it is you can't select more than 4 hits, since you're capped at +4 bonus.  By my understanding you cannot select 5+ hits for the purposes you're describing.  But I can see where you're coming from, too.  And yes I agree a formula such as you describe would be useful.  Of course the devil's in the details... imo most notably in setting a price (rather than the "universal" pricing as is).  How expensive SHOULD it be, given how easy it is to be dispelled/disrupted, AND given how much more or less likely this GM or that one is to actually have that happen?

Quote
That said, I will be flat out amazed if the coming magic book doesn't make more hits very desirable for new spell options. My expectation is the magic power creep will be awe inspiring, but I would love to be proven wrong.

Ditto and ditto.

Quote
I am also interested to see how liberal GMs are with the dispels since the FAQ basically gives GM a license for corp and law enforcement to do it willy nilly. While I think those entities employing those tactics in non-combat scenarios is acceptable, I also think it should only come after a warning they can't enter the premises like that and/or after a failed license check. After all, if you have a license that passes check, law enforcement then just stripping them anyway would itself be illegal, not to mention a flat out dick GM move.

All valid points, but otoh while you're on corp extraterritorial territory they get to decide what's legal.  And yak/mafia/seoulpa/vory/etc compounds don't really care overly much about respecting intruders' legal rights.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1611:35>
The way I read it is you can't select more than 4 hits, since you're capped at +4 bonus.  By my understanding you cannot select 5+ hits for the purposes you're describing.  But I can see where you're coming from, too.  And yes I agree a formula such as you describe would be useful.

Well this sort of goes back to our previous discussion about a "total" augmentation, after negatives. By my reading there is nothing in the spell (or any other spell) that stops you rolling rolling or buying greater than 4 hits, you just don't benefit from more than 4. For example, if a mage cast increase charisma, and sustains it with 6 hits, that is what the spell has vs. dispelling, it's just that he only benefits from 4 of those hits to his attribute.

All valid points, but otoh while you're on corp extraterritorial territory they get to decide what's legal.  And yak/mafia/seoulpa/vory/etc compounds don't really care overly much about respecting intruders' legal rights.

Totally. If criminals do it at whim, 100% legit. Likewise for corps if they are in extraterritorial territory (not all are in some locations). Personally, I think the game reality circumstances should be taken into consideration though. Sure, that Yakuza mage could dispel you. . .but if he thinks you will murder his ass in response, that is a pretty strong deterrent from proceeding.

Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1614:38>
Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.

Oh, agreed. 

You absolutely have a point about the possibility of a spell being dispelled "just because it's easy to do it" is not a nice thing for a GM to do.  But if it makes sense in the context of what's going on?  Well... it's easy to rip down!
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: 0B on <08-13-20/1616:11>
There's nothing stopping the GM from deciding that corpsec is 5 dragons with AK-47s, but there are certainly a lot of reasons not to do such of things.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1624:33>
In response for both of you, with reasonable GMs, none of this is an issue. 25 years of gaming experience has just driven home that those are a commodity at times, so I typically assume given inches will be taken a mile until an individual GM has proven otherwise.

I freely admit that my experience with SR Agent GMs has been significantly better than other living campaigns by comparison though.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1627:25>
For what it's worth, this time around we're making a sister document to the SRM FAQ, a GM Primer intended for GM eyes.  It's not that players can't look at it (indeed, a player one week is the GM another week?) but the doc is solely dedicated to GMing questions and providing advice for consistent experiences across SRM tables.

Some of the points you've been making Lormyr is good fodder for that.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1639:25>
My nerd! <3
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-13-20/1707:40>
SSDR,

I think the new documents will be a nice addition, do you have an ETA?

Thanks,
SL


For what it's worth, this time around we're making a sister document to the SRM FAQ, a GM Primer intended for GM eyes.  It's not that players can't look at it (indeed, a player one week is the GM another week?) but the doc is solely dedicated to GMing questions and providing advice for consistent experiences across SRM tables.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-13-20/1838:05>
Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.

Oh, agreed. 

You absolutely have a point about the possibility of a spell being dispelled "just because it's easy to do it" is not a nice thing for a GM to do.  But if it makes sense in the context of what's going on?  Well... it's easy to rip down!

Its one of the few things a security mage can do from the astral, so I'd see it as commonplace.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-13-20/1840:48>
Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.

Oh, agreed. 

You absolutely have a point about the possibility of a spell being dispelled "just because it's easy to do it" is not a nice thing for a GM to do.  But if it makes sense in the context of what's going on?  Well... it's easy to rip down!

Its one of the few things a security mage can do from the astral, so I'd see it as commonplace.

Yeah.  I'm sure that in the Sixth World there are "no magic allowed on the premises" signs that are as common as "no weapons allowed" signs.  For all the same reasons.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1849:01>
Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.

Oh, agreed. 

You absolutely have a point about the possibility of a spell being dispelled "just because it's easy to do it" is not a nice thing for a GM to do.  But if it makes sense in the context of what's going on?  Well... it's easy to rip down!

Its one of the few things a security mage can do from the astral, so I'd see it as commonplace.

Yeah.  I'm sure that in the Sixth World there are "no magic allowed on the premises" signs that are as common as "no weapons allowed" signs.  For all the same reasons.

Signs, 100%, and repercussions for ignoring them, also 100%. Still, I personally will never be onboard with just coming out with it in a non-combat situation without warning. Not my style, or how I like to be treated at a table.

But at the end of the day, most of the characters that rely on quickening are typically not really the blank trench coat type to begin with. So if you plan to glow like a christmas tree as a criminal, I expect you'll also likely pink mohawk right through that poor astral fuck.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-13-20/1849:37>
Anyhow, when I personally run, non-combat dispels are only going to happen as a result of failed warnings, failed license checks, or shocking player stupidity.

Oh, agreed. 

You absolutely have a point about the possibility of a spell being dispelled "just because it's easy to do it" is not a nice thing for a GM to do.  But if it makes sense in the context of what's going on?  Well... it's easy to rip down!

Its one of the few things a security mage can do from the astral, so I'd see it as commonplace.

Yeah.  I'm sure that in the Sixth World there are "no magic allowed on the premises" signs that are as common as "no weapons allowed" signs.  For all the same reasons.

That would be my assumption. I mean I'd think they'd first just ask you to leave or stop the spell in most environments, secure enough ones might start off with a dispel.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-14-20/0306:11>
Yeah.  I'm sure that in the Sixth World there are "no magic allowed on the premises" signs that are as common as "no weapons allowed" signs.  For all the same reasons.
*Scribbles down enthousiastically for future reference*
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-14-20/1216:44>
Another thought for consideration is martial arts. Currently they cannot be learned at chargen due to the CRB's karma spending stipulations, but I really think that is awfully silly, and we should alter that to include martial arts and techniques either via errata or for SRM specifically through FAQ.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-16-20/1743:44>
Lormyr:

I agree, in the two games I am running (adults and for my son {14-17})   I allow martial arts in Chargen.

I believe/think it's just not knowing what is happening in the future.

Best,
SL
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Hobbes on <08-16-20/1837:28>
Another thought for consideration is martial arts. Currently they cannot be learned at chargen due to the CRB's karma spending stipulations, but I really think that is awfully silly, and we should alter that to include martial arts and techniques either via errata or for SRM specifically through FAQ.

Martial Arts didn't exist when the CRB was written.  As they contain no restriction on when you can get them I think it's fair to presume they're char gen legal. 

I would also presume whenever Adept Ways gets re-printed they would be char gen legal unless they have an initiation requirement or something. 

Expecting CRB Errata every time a new thing comes along just isn't practical.  If a new thing has some kind of requirement or acquisition restriction I would expect that to be explicitly stated in the rules for acquiring that new thing. 

Which is a bizzaro double standard as stuff in the CRB I consider excluded unless listed.  But there isn't any way we're getting CRB Errata with every splat book.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-16-20/1849:21>
Another thought for consideration is martial arts. Currently they cannot be learned at chargen due to the CRB's karma spending stipulations, but I really think that is awfully silly, and we should alter that to include martial arts and techniques either via errata or for SRM specifically through FAQ.

Martial Arts didn't exist when the CRB was written.  As they contain no restriction on when you can get them I think it's fair to presume they're char gen legal. 

I would also presume whenever Adept Ways gets re-printed they would be char gen legal unless they have an initiation requirement or something. 

Expecting CRB Errata every time a new thing comes along just isn't practical.  If a new thing has some kind of requirement or acquisition restriction I would expect that to be explicitly stated in the rules for acquiring that new thing. 

Which is a bizzaro double standard as stuff in the CRB I consider excluded unless listed.  But there isn't any way we're getting CRB Errata with every splat book.

I think there is a view that "Splat is the new Errata"
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <08-16-20/1933:36>
Which is a bizzaro double standard as stuff in the CRB I consider excluded unless listed.  But there isn't any way we're getting CRB Errata with every splat book.

That is pretty much the crux of it, as that is the primary way most people handle.

We don't need errata though, if the authors and line editor just use a bee's dick of forethought.

"Martial Arts and Techniques may also be purchased during character generation using your starting Karma.".

One sentence inclusion fix. Tailor as needed per specific instance.

Edit Update: And it turns out a bee's dick of forethought was employed and I just flatly missed it! "Acquiring a martial art happens during character creation or advancement; styles are purchased with Karma, much as qualities are.".
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Jayde Moon on <09-16-20/1528:23>
Hey, really great discussion, and it's certainly great to know that the FAQ has been mostly well received by the agents who have access.

I've read over the thread and am cross referencing with other stuff to see if we can work in your various criticisms (very constructive, thank you all for that).

For example... Cultured Bioware is, as far as I'm concerned, copypasta from the 5th Edition FAQ... if the team doesn't see an issue besides (well it's always been that way), I'm happy to to pull that.

Also will clarify the buying services questions.

I think Skill Bonus caps are gonna stay as they are for now, unfortunately... but I like the 'inelegant' fix of +4 being the total after negatives are taken into account... we'll see.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <09-17-20/0605:46>
Cool, look forward to seeing what you guys do with it.
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Hobbes on <09-17-20/0946:08>
I am curious as to why Missions choose to restrict 'ware grades (Beta, Delta, and Used Cultured) when the 6th edition CRB doesn't.  If it was a carry-over from 5th or if there was a specific concern that the team wanted to address?
Title: Re: SR6 FAQ
Post by: Lormyr on <09-18-20/1111:43>
Great point Hobbes. I personally don't see a compelling reason to go that route either.