NEWS

Shadowrun 5E Matrix: Unanswered Questions

  • 24 Replies
  • 3170 Views

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #15 on: <09-02-18/2031:31> »
I actually meant it more like she misremembered.
I guess cgl aren't the only ones who should write more clearly.  :P
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
« Reply #16 on: <09-02-18/2053:28> »
Found it:

No, because the cyberdeck isn't a separate icon while Jones is using it, it's his persona. Jones can invite a mark on his persona (because it's his), but not the deck icon (because it's not his). As to whether or not Jones spends his own action doing pushed Matrix actions, that's in the complex form description.

Hmm, the fact that a commlink/deck/whatever isn't available as a device or icon when it is a persona is a pretty big deal.  For one, relating to Technomancers again, it means you couldn't have the whole "Machine Sprite using Diagnostics for a bonus to everything Matrix" on a deck because as soon as it was used, it becomes a Persona and isn't a valid target.

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #17 on: <09-02-18/2110:05> »
Yeah, I saw that. Note how Aaron actually never even mentioned a PAN, masters, slaves, or device-hood.

It doesn't really fit.
« Last Edit: <09-03-18/0023:50> by HP15BS »
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 698
« Reply #18 on: <09-03-18/0734:13> »
Out on the grid, you see the things around in a 100 Meter radius around your position, meaning the position of the device your are running persona is running on.
Do you have any reference for this?  I know I've looked and not found any.  I can personally see an argument either way, as in 100m radius from your Persona, and 100m radius from your device.
In this case, do you automatically spot any Icon within 100m radius of your device that is in the vicinity of the Seattle grid?
Or Icons within 100m radius of your Persona on the DeeCee grid?

These arbitrary 100 Meters (Letīs call them Detection Radius for now, itīs always better to have a keyword linked to something important like this) in which you automatically spot devices that are not running silent are often a point of contention, for multiple reasons:

  • Despite it is questionable if your Persona = Device is running on, Iīm 90% sure your Personaīs physical Position is derived form your deviceīs Position. So when you "move" your Persona in the Matrix, itīs mostly a visual Metaphor. Itīs not like Astral Projektion, where you travel 50km away and can percieve the Auras there. In the Matrix, the Detection Radius always stays with the Device you Persona is running on. However: I can understand how you come to your conclusion, given the mushy usage of "Movement" in fluff texts, AND Iīm still only 90% sure and not 100% - this surely needs a detailed official clarification, because it would make a huge difference in Matrix gameplay!
  • If Iīm correct here, it would be quite important to know how far you (meaning: the actual living being!) can be away from the device your Persona is running on. Whatever Interface you are using - AR Gloves, DNI, Click-Blinking... - these controls are usually wireless! Can I control a Persona running on a device in one place while being in another place, to get another "point of view" (i.e. the center of my Detection Radius) or to misdirect traces? (Also, can I target/hack these controls in the Matrix? :o)
  • It is somewhat implied that you also know the physical location of things you have spotted in your Detection Radius and thus, donīt need to use Trace Icon anymore. Many tables I know prefer this interpretation, since it also makes things a bit faster. But are they correct? Is this RAI?
  • If I automatically spotted an Icon because it entered my Detection Radius, do I automatically lose it when it leaves the Detection Radius again? RAW, I only lose Icons if they successfully hide from me or leave the Matrix.

Forgive me if I seemed flippant about the Masters-as-Slaves thing. I personally would have no problem with allowing it, I just think that you canīt really give "technical explanation" for man-made software protocolls:  Someone decided that a device cannot be a Master or Slave at the same time, and now itīs part of the Matrix protocols.

But now that I further think about it, There is a HUGE issue with this that surely demands a Errata or Clarification:

Core Rules, P. 268: "There are also wide area networks, or WANs, with multiple devices slaved to a host. This is the world of  that special kind of rigger, the security spider. They slave(!) their RCC to the building’s host and connect to the entire  security system, including all of its slaved drones."

That would be a problem now, because RCCs need to be Masters to share Autosofts with their slaved Drones. Does this mean that Spiders donīt use shared Autosofts and have individual Autosofts running on their drones instead? Or can the slaved RCC still share Autosofts inside the Hostīs WAN (would make more sense IMO)? Can the security rigger even control his/her persona on the slaved RCC?

Also, is the RCC in this case visible outside the Host?



« Last Edit: <09-03-18/0825:24> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
« Reply #19 on: <09-03-18/1243:05> »
Forgive me if I seemed flippant about the Masters-as-Slaves thing. I personally would have no problem with allowing it, I just think that you canīt really give "technical explanation" for man-made software protocolls:  Someone decided that a device cannot be a Master or Slave at the same time, and now itīs part of the Matrix protocols.

Well, you wondered why everyone wanted to daisy chain PANs.  A reason is that it is a fundamental part of our modern technology.  The idea that the future went backwards on that is kind of hard to swallow.*
It doesn't make sense, so it won't "stick" in players minds.
To make matters worse, it isn't even made for a good reason.  It isn't like Wireless Bonuses are going to make or break anything.  Even from the start, they felt like an afterthought.  The cherry on a sunday.  Sure, they may be the best part to some people, but nothing about the game would really change if they were suddenly removed.

*It is one of the reasons 4th Edition brought Wireless into Shadowrun.  At the end of 3rd, it was getting harder to swallow that there was no wi-fi in the future.

When you (generic) come out of nowhere to say "You can't do in the future what you can do now," without there being an obvious reason for it...  It just doesn't make sense.  Right now, it comes across like it was arbitrarily decided to punish technology based characters - as if they are the ones that are the most game breaking.



In a tangentially related subject, it is a similar situation to the whole "movement on the Matrix" discussion we are having.  Even though it is not technically correct, we (collectively) think about "going out on the web," "going to site ABC," not bringing those things to us.  Not to mention the visuals for any VR computer experience always have the avatar moving to their destination.
There wasn't any defining point, that I could find, in the rules to make it clear how the Matrix worked in that regard.  If the Matrix changes how players imagine the way the technology works, it needs to be made clear.
Then again, like with the chaining PANs, it still might not sink in.  ;)

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 698
« Reply #20 on: <09-03-18/1338:03> »
The "Movement in the Matrix"-thing is really icky, because the way things are right now (provided Iīm right about the RAI, which Iīm still not entirely sure!), the rules clash not only with the visual metaphor of the Matrix as a Virtual Space overlaying reality - I think it also clashes with the way Astral Projektions works. Now the Matrix and the Astral World are two different thing, but there are some parallels regarding the relation each of these "spheres" have to the real world, and many players feel inclined to further this parallels. F.i., some players like to see parallels between the two Matrix Interface Modes and the two "Modes" of interacting with the Astral Space and assume that it kinda works the same way:

  • Persona = Astral Form -> My "Other Form"
  • Augmented Reality = Astral Perception -> My other Form is still with my body/hardware
  • Virtual Reality = Astral Perception -> My other Form can move around freely and leave the body/hardware behind

And it would be so wonderfully simple if it really worked this way, but it (most certainly...) doesn`t right now. It surely would be a good thing for the next rewriting of the Matrix for 6th Edition or the enhanced 5th Edition, tho. That or an official, unequivocal answer to the question: "Where is my personaīs location in the Matrix (in relation to the real world)?" Because, as I mentioned: Iīm still not 100% sure if Iīm correct here  ;)

FYI, I also cooked up something in regards to this topic: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28047.msg505969
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
« Reply #21 on: <09-03-18/1637:32> »
I'll be compiling all of the questioned points into the main post, while I do that here is another couple I remembered:

  • Can a commlink/deck store more than one SIN at a time?  Obviously, even if the device could broadcast more than one it would be a really silly thing to do.
  • Can you transfer (cyber) Programs form one Deck to another?  What if they have the same Owner?  I know there was a ruling somewhere, if memory serves by Aaron, that a Decker can't copy programs (because they can't defeat the copy protection of all things), but what about transferring?

EDITed to add:  Initial post updated with the questions posted so far.  Let me know if I missed any.
« Last Edit: <09-03-18/1648:36> by Iron Serpent Prince »

PingGuy

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 99
« Reply #22 on: <09-04-18/1056:45> »
Found it:

No, because the cyberdeck isn't a separate icon while Jones is using it, it's his persona. Jones can invite a mark on his persona (because it's his), but not the deck icon (because it's not his). As to whether or not Jones spends his own action doing pushed Matrix actions, that's in the complex form description.

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the deck's device icon and the hacker's persona icon merge, but it just displays the persona icon as a result?  That seems like what the intent is anyway.  For example:

If you put marks on a persona icon and run a trace, you get the location of the deck, not the location of the persona.  Since the persona is right in front of the hacker, it would never make sense to trace it if you got the persona's location.

The way it read to me was that the persona icon stands in for the deck's device icon while the hacker is in the matrix.  The deck doesn't disappear from the Matrix, but its ability to be directly targeted does.  You have to target the persona to affect the device, but you can still affect the device, because it's still there doing its job.

The RCC example fits with this too.  You can slave your RCC to a host and use it to control any relevant device that is slaved to the host.  You aren't slaving your RCC to the host and then slaving those devices to your RCC.  They are already slaved to the host, you are just inserting your RCC into the system to use its control functionality on the other devices available there.

Ech0

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 43
« Reply #23 on: <09-04-18/1721:32> »
I am a bit surprised that no one has complained/made remarks about the (new?) definition of Personas themselfs.  :o

I found it rather surprising to read the paragraph on page 22, detailing that a persona is once-and-for-all fixed due to the matrix protocols. No matter the device you use to log into the matrix, your persona is one and the same - every time.

Once GOD has kicked your butt for being a matrix terrorist (or worse yet, a technomancer), what reason do they have for allowing your persona to ever reconnect to the matrix again - or sending a police squad to your location, once you do? Because they have faith in you and believe your can change your evil hacker ways?

That, and all that weird new noise equipment plus the true origins of the new matrix, rubbed me the wrong way.

« Last Edit: <09-05-18/1525:55> by Ech0 »

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 698
« Reply #24 on: <09-06-18/0516:37> »
Now what‘s the deal with the Editor Complex Form? Do I need a Mark on the File? Can I ignore File Protection? Will it trigger Data Bombs?
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"