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Running and sneaking

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odd

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« on: <02-17-16/1542:20> »
Is there a rule somewhere about a penalty to sneaking when you move faster than a certain speed?  I feel there should be but couldn't find the rule.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #1 on: <02-17-16/1625:33> »
There's no explicit penalty but it'd be fair to just generally assess a penalty to it.
Playability > verisimilitude.

jim1701

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« Reply #2 on: <02-17-16/1628:41> »
On page 136 under using Stealth rules it says to use the perception modifiers on the target (i.e. whoever you are sneaking past.)  Based on that I'd say the observer might get a +2 DP modifier due the "object/sound stands out in some way." 

Now if they are trying to sneak past the observer and are passing directly through their LOS than IMHO that would be an automatic fail unless invisibility, the concealment power or some other special circumstance were involved. 

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #3 on: <02-17-16/1705:01> »
I don't think there is ever an auto fail. There are always circumstances you can try to exploit.
Playability > verisimilitude.

jim1701

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« Reply #4 on: <02-17-16/1736:31> »
I don't think there is ever an auto fail. There are always circumstances you can try to exploit.

Strictly by RAW?  No.  But my GM call would be that if you are running through a room trying to be sneaky and you are crossing the observer's LOS then you fail barring special circumstances such as I noted previously.  There are some levels of absurdity I'm not willing to deal with no matter what the rules might say.  I did state, however, that this is strictly my own opinion.  I did not attempt to pass it off as RAW or even RAI.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #5 on: <02-17-16/1750:46> »
There is, in the real world, such a thing as learning to run stealthy. Scout snipers learn it as well as a number for more stealth orientated forms of martial arts. I would actually say that as far as impact goes moving running stealthily does not necessarily reduce your stealth. In fact its focus is on noise reduction and if your good at it you can be inaudible at any distance more than a few feet away and it actually reduces your chance of being seen by reducing your time in exposed areas. The limitation is that in order to do that you have to walk "funny" whish makes it a lot more easy to twist your angle. As a result, you move more careful to avoid hurting yourself... also falling down is not real stealthy unless you can roll out of it quietly. So more than a stealth reduction, I would recommend a movement penalty. A reduction of 1/4. so 4 speed -1, 8 speed -2, etc. The reduction of stealth for walking through an open/reviled area is that your being forced out of stealth and actually your better off stealth running (quite but visible) then just running (noisy and visible) or trying to "stealth" in plan site (visible for way too long). Sure the people's eyes are attracted to motion, but a blur out of the corner of the eye might be enough to get someone looking in the right direction but not enough to know it was not a stray dog or where to shoot. If your slowly easing across a well lite light colored back ground in your all black "stealthy" suite they could still easily pick you out and shoot you if they notice. Alternatively if you have armor made of light bending cloth (I forget the name) and stealth run right in front of them. It is possible the don't hear or see you. They may notice some motion but unless they knew you were coming and expected stealth their is little chance they would be more than a little alerted.
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

adzling

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« Reply #6 on: <02-17-16/2018:04> »
Yeah sneaking in plain sight without something to hide behind/ in is a bit much imho.

+ don't forget our eyes (and most animals + one would suppose cybereyes as well) are designed/ evolved to notice fast moving objects better than slow-moving/ still ones.

++ our footfalls generate more noise then someone moving slowly/ creeping.

So I'd also impose a bonus to the observer's dice pool or penalty to the sneaker's for trying to sneak while running for both visual and auditory.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #7 on: <02-17-16/2232:37> »
Yeah sneaking in plain sight without something to hide behind/ in is a bit much imho.
That is true if your running or not.

+ don't forget our eyes (and most animals + one would suppose cybereyes as well) are designed/ evolved to notice fast moving objects better than slow-moving/ still ones.
correction to that adzling, We are designed to draw to movement, that does doesn't mean we notice them or are more aware of what they are. Also a fast moving object moving through a shadow will draw less attention than a highly visible object in the open and light of day. The cybereye's should have listed bonuses to account for there acuity and remember half of noticing something stealthing about is mental just because you see something doesn't mean you recognize and respond to it appropriately. We filter out a lot of what we see all the time. 5 fast moving cars drive by on the road, I may not notice color, people inside, or the bike coming at high speed in the shadow on the side walk. They don't mean to scare the crap out of me some times but that's why they ring the bell all the time near people. No people around? Trees and plastic bags blowing in the wind also catch attention. If your GM gives a bonus to spot check its for clear views, still nights, and ample light on the target to see them and distinguish them without your mind filtering it out as daily sensory noise. Perception is not the ability to perceive all things but the ability to pick out significant details over the noise of life.

++ our footfalls generate more noise then someone moving slowly/ creeping.
Not always true, I have met people who made a ton of noise trying to be quiet and I have meet people who make almost no noise even running. Which will make you jump when then come running past. As a former Marine, I can tell from experience that people can run at ..almost.. full speed noiselessly if the know how. If they crouch stop, they can even make a silent stop and pop up right beside you in the dead quiet of night while you are actively looking for them. Had a scout sniper instructor that used to terrorize us on watch in the dead middle of night... in and open field.... running up and crouching... with out noise... then breathing on our necks...  Almost made me have a heart attack in my 20s then I had to report my post while he was laughing. Part of the problem is while your searching for someone you also make noise. So if its a quiet night, he doesn't have to be silent, he just has to be more quiet than the noise you make yourself. If you don't know he is coming then yes your more quiet, but then he needs to be more quiet but he can more easily approach from an angle behind where movement is less likely to draw your eyes so to make up the extra effort and slowing down for speed he can run I more direct path through the open. If you want to say they need to take "stealth running" as a stealth specialization, ok. But some people are just more naturally stealthier than others as well.

So I'd also impose a bonus to the observer's dice pool or penalty to the sneaker's for trying to sneak while running for both visual and auditory.

Again, if the is behind the target moving quietly (yes running) this does not always make any since. Are they talking? Cars? wind? There a group and they are all walking? are they all trying to walk in stealth, because if not they are making a lot more noise then he is. If there talking are the paying attention to the conversation or are they actively looking out for this or some other person. If they don't know he is coming and don't have reason to notice, any penalty both by game rules and based in reality should come from the environment. Other wise your making the assumption that some who is skilled as stealth (yep the put time and training into that skill, even if indirectly through experience) is inherently un-stealthy. You don't reduce gunnery for it being dark, but you do apply a limited light penalty. The big difference is that a player can compensate for environmental and situational penalties but  for you stealing skills they paid for. If you shooting in low light you can have low light on your scope. If your worried the number of people around a target makes it hard to get close due to noise and the number of eyes looking around, wait until they move. Then they will make a lot of walking noise to cover yours and generally people look the way they are walking so few if any eye's would see them run up. Particularly just as a group starts moving. Everyone will take a second to orient their direction. Then after they have been walking for a while their visual checks often became routine and predictable, at least enough to get way closer than they would like. So unless you have a trained security group, walking slow in a circle, faceing out, in the middle of the day, in an open field,.... oh wait those are all eviromental condition modifiers again... jk. You get the idea right?

If a GM wasnt's to prevent a players from doing something he doesn't get to say, no you have less of that skill now.... because I don't like it. He can put as many environmental modifiers as he can find though.
« Last Edit: <02-17-16/2312:48> by ClaytonCross »
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #8 on: <02-18-16/0011:23> »
+ don't forget our eyes (and most animals + one would suppose cybereyes as well) are designed/ evolved to notice fast moving objects better than slow-moving/ still ones.

So, you're saying that I'm a T-Rex? =)
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #9 on: <02-18-16/0108:07> »
+ don't forget our eyes (and most animals + one would suppose cybereyes as well) are designed/ evolved to notice fast moving objects better than slow-moving/ still ones.

So, you're saying that I'm a T-Rex? =)

Also, The pimp sitting in his bright neon multi-chromatic color changing out fit is way harder to see than the guy in black running in shadows. Reflector belts are a lye! Wearing black and runing full speed zig zag across the road is the best way to be seen in the dead of night with no street lights. The drivers making blind turns with their windows up listening to the radio while blasting the AC will surely know around the corner because of your horribly loud foot steps and because your running so fast. (jk)
« Last Edit: <02-18-16/0110:51> by ClaytonCross »
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

MijRai

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« Reply #10 on: <02-18-16/0139:46> »
Also keep in mind whatever the person you're trying to sneak by is focused on.  I've totally walked right up to someone, gone around them and tapped them on the shoulder and have them jump, just because they didn't focus on me/recognize what my movement was. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

adzling

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« Reply #11 on: <02-18-16/1036:20> »
haha of course all of the above is true.

however we are talking about a fast moving sneaker relative to a slow moving sneaker.
the slow mover will always make less noise and be less observable given equal conditions/ skill.

there, was that so hard?