Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Pap Renvela on <01-31-16/2213:19>
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Since Ways cost the same during chargen and post chargen, do they count as a positive quality or are they like martial arts and not included in the positive qualities max?
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The way they're described has me a little stumped as well. The beginning of the book makes them look like the Mage's Arts, meaning you'd have to undergo Initiation into one of the Ways. Initiation isn't allowed during CharGen, and most GMs are hesitant to house rule allowing it. So that would mean you have to wait for gameplay, and pay for it the same you would any other Initiation. But at that point, it's not a Quality or a Martial Art, it's just a thing you do (like the Mage Arts).
But later the book sells you Ways as 20 point Qualities. And I'm not seeing anything in there that would disallow purchasing them at CharGen. In fact, purchasing them post-CharGen would cost 40 points, which is far more than Initiations usually run.
So... I really wonder how they meant for Ways to be purchased. However, if you're using the Quality route, then yes it should be among your Qualities (which means you only have 5 left). Perhaps a reason to wait and buy the Way later through a 13 point Initiation instead?
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They do NOT count towards maximum positive qualities
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They do NOT count towards maximum positive qualities
Source? =)
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I believe the author said so ... Need to check up on that again.
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And some have claimed the Ways price doubles post character gen, which my group ignores cause about .75 PP refund and cheaper foci/similar effect is not worth 40 karma.
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I believe the author said so ... Need to check up on that again.
Yes I did, you are correct. 8)
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And some have claimed the Ways price doubles post character gen, which my group ignores cause about .75 PP refund and cheaper foci/similar effect is not worth 40 karma.
They do not cost 40 post char gen, so you're doing it correctly.
8)
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So do you need to have the Way "quality" to be able to Initiate into that particular school? Or is it totally unrelated?
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You don't need the qualities to initiate.
Each adept without the qualities counts as following the Undecided Way and can choose the respective metamagics (powerpoints, adept centering, ...).
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I mean, do you need to have the quality to initiate into a way other than Undecided?
(actually, reading it again, it seems to be clear that the answer is yes. So much for reading comprehension.)
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Each adept can only have metamagics/enhancements/... from one other way besides the Undecided Way. And only access to the Undecided Way comes for free.
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well that's a new one to me, that changes the equation dramatically on Biocompatibility, Burnout's Way and Prototype Transhuman....
They do NOT count towards maximum positive qualities
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It's all about the Line Editor Marcus, it's his job to ensure consistency and accuracy.
The freelancers are working for a pittance and often only have visibility into the one tiny section of the book they are writing.
They have no editorial oversight afaik.
The Line Editor clearly been awol since the release of 5e and has basically fallen and not gotten up.
This is shown by this and many other easily caught editing fails as well as the year + delay in issuing any errata and the fact he's off writing Srun novels ffs instead of doing his job and you know, ensuring the accuracy, consistency and playability of Srun 5e.
This is 100% backed up by how the Line Editor for Battletech manages to get things right and issue errata in a timely manner.
I am astounded they have not replaced the Line Editor yet as he obviously is incompetent,
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It's all about the Line Editor Marcus, it's his job to ensure consistency and accuracy.
The freelancers are working for a pittance and often only have visibility into the one tiny section of the book they are writing.
They have no editorial oversight afaik.
The Line Editor clearly been awol since the release of 5e and has basically fallen and not gotten up.
This is shown by this and many other easily caught editing fails as well as the year + delay in issuing any errata and the fact he's off writing Srun novels ffs instead of doing his job and you know, ensuring the accuracy, consistency and playability of Srun 5e.
This is 100% backed up by how the Line Editor for Battletech manages to get things right and issue errata in a timely manner.
I am astounded they have not replaced the Line Editor yet as he obviously is incompetent,
Take a step back adzling. It's one thing to voice frustration and criticism, it's another to attack an individual.
Mod
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AJ, I have a question/concern here, and what it boils down to is...when the root cause of our major issues can be traced back to a specific individual, doesn't every criticism become a personal attack, since it is laid at their feet?
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AJ, I have a question/concern here, and what it boils down to is...when the root cause of our major issues can be traced back to a specific individual, doesn't every criticism become a personal attack, since it is laid at their feet?
Come on chummer -- get your corp speak on! There are ways to say things which make your point clear enough, without making the words personal.
“We know that it is possible for line editing to catch such things – even at Catalyst it can be seen with the many less problems in the Battletech line of books. It is therefore frustrating as a fan that this appearance of weak line editing has carried on throughout the 5th edition era, and it is disappointing that Catalyst has apparently not taken more substantial steps to address it.”
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etiquette aside, do remember that Street Grimoire was one of the earlier supplements. I certainly think that the more recent ones have been broadly better (barring the odd decision to skip a full table of contents in a couple of them -- come on people, these are reference books, not novels!)
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Yeah, there's polite ways of expressing your dissatisfaction, and there's calling people incompetent and/or shirking their duties or telling them to 'put down the crack pipe' as adzling has previously said. If you can't express yourself on a topic without denigrating other people, maybe you shouldn't express yourself on that topic.
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Yeah, there's polite ways of expressing your dissatisfaction, and there's calling people incompetent and/or shirking their duties or telling them to 'put down the crack pipe' as adzling has previously said. If you can't express yourself on a topic without denigrating other people, maybe you shouldn't express yourself on that topic.
What kind of inference are most people going to make about a person if that person's job includes editing, and the overall editing is of terrible quality? One might reasonably infer it reflects on that person's competence, let alone professionalism. ;D
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It's pretty clear that srun 5e suffers from horrific line editing and has done since launch.
You can draw your own conclusions whether that is due to the person in charge of same or other factors.
Howver catalyst does much better with battletech.
I wonder why that is?
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Like Beta and I said WhiskeyJack, you can say there's problems without being insulting to individuals. Infer all you want.
I personally find the editing standard to be abysmal and the lack of errata to fix previous errors is horrible. I'm not calling out individuals because it is rude and in my opinion the sheer number of problems indicates this isn't on the head of a single person. I have professional editing experience, though I wasn't the top of the totem pole; I would have been reamed had I let products go to the next level at the quality I've seen in some of these books.
At this point in time, I've aired my grievances. I've literally volunteered to do editing for free twice to help with the workload. No response either time. There's not much I can do but choose whether or not to purchase Shadowrun products at this point. I don't need to lower myself to insulting people, nor do I want to, nor would it help.
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So basically... you're making this shit up as you go? You're calling them Qualities, only they don't adhere to ANY of the rules that govern every other Quality in the game. You've got them listed with the rest of the Initiation Arts, but they don't require Initiation like all the other listed Arts do.
I understand when some GMs will house rule stuff, saying "Well yes. The rules do say that. But I've decided that at my table we're going to do something different." But when the writers themselves can't adhere to the rules of the game, I kinda lose my mind. How in the fuck can you call yourselves professionals, and expect people to pay rather large sums of money for your products, when you obviously can't decide how the game is supposed to be played.
THIS SHIT is why we have such lengthy and repeated discussions on these forums. "How does XYZ work?" over and over and over again. It's because the writers don't even know how it's supposed to work. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but both of them are outstretched to take our money.
Holy shit...
Funny ...
Take a step back and realize you're not even late to the party with your points ...
That Ways can't count as actual qualities per Core Book is old, same with infected qualities, which are often above the limit of positive qualities at chargen.
The writers know how they want it to work. It's just that there are sometimes minor mistakes which cause confusion.
Ways are unique in their interaction with the awakened individuals. By choosing a Way you automatically qualify for their stuff.
And what is more important for your yelling:
You complained about a point that is completely irrelevant for the Ways.
Since the Arts are for magicians only and the Ways are for adepts I leave you to figure it out on your own.
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I've literally volunteered to do editing for free twice to help with the workload.
I got a pretty quick reply (under a week) to my offer for copy-editing. I rate that response time as pretty fantastic.
How did you offer your help? The people who actually are involved in this kind of thing don't often read the forums, so you might not have contacted them in the correct way. It was in one of the threads where this stuff was getting hot and heavy.
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So basically... you're making this shit up as you go? You're calling them Qualities, only they don't adhere to ANY of the rules that govern every other Quality in the game. You've got them listed with the rest of the Initiation Arts, but they don't require Initiation like all the other listed Arts do.
I understand when some GMs will house rule stuff, saying "Well yes. The rules do say that. But I've decided that at my table we're going to do something different." But when the writers themselves can't adhere to the rules of the game, I kinda lose my mind. How in the fuck can you call yourselves professionals, and expect people to pay rather large sums of money for your products, when you obviously can't decide how the game is supposed to be played.
THIS SHIT is why we have such lengthy and repeated discussions on these forums. "How does XYZ work?" over and over and over again. It's because the writers don't even know how it's supposed to work. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but both of them are outstretched to take our money.
Holy shit...
Funny ...
Take a step back and realize you're not even late to the party with your points ...
That Ways can't count as actual qualities per Core Book is old, same with infected qualities, which are often above the limit of positive qualities at chargen.
The writers know how they want it to work. It's just that there are sometimes minor mistakes which cause confusion.
Ways are unique in their interaction with the awakened individuals. By choosing a Way you automatically qualify for their stuff.
And what is more important for your yelling:
You complained about a point that is completely irrelevant for the Ways.
Since the Arts are for magicians only and the Ways are for adepts I leave you to figure it out on your own.
Run Faster pg 133, Creating Infected Characters
Creating one of the Infected is just the same as creating any other character. The appropriate quality is selected during character creation when qualities are purchased, and the various benefits and penalties are assigned. The normal limit saying characters cannot have more than 25 Karma worth of Positive Qualities at character creation does not apply to Infected qualities, though the limit on 25 Karma worth of Negative Qualities remains in place.
You're right, there is precedence for purchasing Qualities that don't count towards your 25 point limit. However, there is also precedence for saying so to the players beforehand (without requiring them to wander the forums aimlessly until someone claiming to be the writer puts a quick little comment in about it).
Same goes for input from Mr Aaron, like when he came on the forums to tell everyone that only the Owner of a device can bring those devices into their PAN. Meaning the Decker cannot protect the Street Sam's chrome or toys unless the Decker becomes the registered Owner of everything the Sam has.
Or when he said you can use your Counterspell skill (and nothing else) to try and avoid getting hit by a Fireball. Despite the fact that we've eventually established there is absolutely no defense test to avoid a Fireball.
Basically, he's interjecting rulings that have absolutely no grounding in the Rules As Written. Nothing in the book suggests any of those claims, and yet here they are saying "Oh, well... that's what I meant to say."
When the Ways are in the same section as Initiation Arts, in a section which is entitled Secrets of the Initiates, then where are you supposed to infer this hidden meaning that Ways aren't an Initiation thing. That you can simply pay 20 Karma and immediately receive a package deal.
Arts are for Mages, Ways are for Adepts. Both are Magic users, governed by quite a few of the same rules. I leave you to wander in the dark, feeling your way through the haze, to figure it out on your own. Just be sure to check the forums regularly, b/c they've basically given up printing official errata and have moved to occasionally answering a question here or there depending on whether they too check the forums regularly. The errata has become a game of Telephone, where someone saw the post, and told a friend, who told a friend, who may eventually remember to mention it again when the question is asked for the thousandth time b/c nobody can find the answer in an official format.
These books cost too much to have such poor quality. Pretty pictures and spiffy fonts do not forgive piss poor editing and horrible organization. There is not a single aspect of this game that doesn't require cross referencing several sections of the book, if not several sections across several books, to even remotely understand "what they meant to say". Oh, and then there's the Hide and Seek in the forums to see if anything was further clarified muddied by someone later on.
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It should be said that Street Grimoire was from that dark era of releases and might be the biggest evidence to how screwed it all were back then. It's gotten better (a lot if you compare with Rigger 5)
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I wholeheartedly concur with the below.
Catalyst needs to change how they author, edit and release Srun books.
Although things have improved since the horror show that was Street Grimoire the newer books such as Rigger 5.0 (see errata thread for Rigger 5.0) are still badly mis-managed and poorly edited to the point where we still have to dig through these forums to divine what was meant and concoct houserules to fix things that were terribly written/ forgotten/ never edited to start with.
The fact that Catalyst can't get their act together enough to simply release errata after over a year is beyond comprehension.
It's like they are daring each other to see how long they can ignore their fanbase before people wholesale abandon Srun 5e.
THIS SHIT is why we have such lengthy and repeated discussions on these forums. "How does XYZ work?" over and over and over again. It's because the writers don't even know how it's supposed to work. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but both of them are outstretched to take our money.
These books cost too much to have such poor quality. Pretty pictures and spiffy fonts do not forgive piss poor editing and horrible organization. There is not a single aspect of this game that doesn't require cross referencing several sections of the book, if not several sections across several books, to even remotely understand "what they meant to say". Oh, and then there's the Hide and Seek in the forums to see if anything was further clarified muddied by someone later on.
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Mystic, I am attempting to get the Adept Ways fixed in Hero Lab so they reflect your intent when writing the section.
Currently HeroLab implements Ways as costing double post Chargen AND contributing to maximum Quality limit during Chargen.
I can understand why herolab does this, the errata for S.G. does not cover this at all for some reason *scratches head*.
Perhaps you could post here how Adept Ways should be treated so I can get this fixed for the playerbase in herolab?
thanks
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AJ, I have a question/concern here, and what it boils down to is...when the root cause of our major issues can be traced back to a specific individual, doesn't every criticism become a personal attack, since it is laid at their feet?
Criticizing and commenting on decisions is fine. Calling someone incompetent is a personsal attack. Period.
Things are not perfect, I get that. However, I can also admit to not having full visibility to all the inner workings and decision making processes. Hence, I find it hard to pass judgement, despite opinions I might have as to what could/should be done.
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To state opinion i believe the issue is too many freelancers not a lot of collaboration lack of clarity it was an experiment on if freelancers could provide material they did. It's just they weren't working in concert with one another so they didnt have knowledge what the other freelancers were doing. Hence why we have a hodge podge of rules that don't quite make sense with one another and no final say on what the rulings are. Again, this is just my opinion and what we can do as fans of this is come together as a group and decide what should be intended write our own errata vote on the choices or we can just go and blame someone else for a problem we can fix ourselves. *drop mic*
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And some have claimed the Ways price doubles post character gen, which my group ignores cause about .75 PP refund and cheaper foci/similar effect is not worth 40 karma.
They do not cost 40 post char gen, so you're doing it correctly.
8)
Thanks! Man, that made my day! Sadly, it was never mentioned in the SG errata from years back. Was it ever actually finished?
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Since the Arts are for magicians only and the Ways are for adepts I leave you to figure it out on your own.
When the Ways are in the same section as Initiation Arts, in a section which is entitled Secrets of the Initiates, then where are you supposed to infer this hidden meaning that Ways aren't an Initiation thing. That you can simply pay 20 Karma and immediately receive a package deal.
Arts are for Mages, Ways are for Adepts. Both are Magic users, governed by quite a few of the same rules.
Seems you failed to connect the dots ...
Adepts and Magicians are both awakened and are both allowed to initiate. That's why both are in the mentioned chapter.
But had you read the introduction more thoroughly you'd discovered that it's only about magicians. So nothing that follows applies to adepts. The descriptions of the various metamagics even continue to call out "magicians" as their respective audience.
And then we have the Physical Arts starting with: "Adepts can learn their own metamagics as they progress. As the adept chooses a Way (or chooses not to choose), more improvement options become available.
This again is clear, since the first part about initiating into arts did not apply to adepts. The chapter Physical Magic then has more Information about the Ways.
And sorry, just because you didn't read thoroughly enough, doesn't mean that the information was not there.
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Likewise, we don't mind some profanity, but excessive use of it in a single post is not allowed. Watch what you're saying, around here. Imagine you're speaking to a group of kindergartners that will repeat what they here to their parents and teachers.
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So basically... you're making this shit up as you go? You're calling them Qualities, only they don't adhere to ANY of the rules that govern every other Quality in the game. You've got them listed with the rest of the Initiation Arts, but they don't require Initiation like all the other listed Arts do.
I understand when some GMs will house rule stuff, saying "Well yes. The rules do say that. But I've decided that at my table we're going to do something different." But when the writers themselves can't adhere to the rules of the game, I kinda lose my mind. How in the fuck can you call yourselves professionals, and expect people to pay rather large sums of money for your products, when you obviously can't decide how the game is supposed to be played.
THIS SHIT is why we have such lengthy and repeated discussions on these forums. "How does XYZ work?" over and over and over again. It's because the writers don't even know how it's supposed to work. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but both of them are outstretched to take our money.
Holy shit...
Likewise, we don't mind some profanity, but excessive use of it in a single post is not allowed. Watch what you're saying, around here. Imagine you're speaking to a group of kindergartners that will repeat what they here to their parents and teachers.
I didn't realize Kindergartners were your target audience, but now that I look at the packaging again...
(http://i.imgur.com/oP2QFz3.jpg)
I can't wait to bring my bunraku sex puppet for Show and Tell.
Thank you for proving my point. You were expecting the pretty pictures to keep us pacified, so we wouldn't notice the quality of the product was terrible and steadily getting worse. "Look at the shiny things! Pay no attention to the writing and mechanics behind that curtain."
How about; instead of treating the customers like children, we put on our big boy pants and talk to the employees freelancers about their work. They're the ones who can't keep the rules straight long enough to write them all down. And as Adzling has been saying, there should be some amount of proofreading to make sure everything makes sense in the end. Not just rushing scribbles on napkins off to the printers so they can make another buck. Like I said before, these books cost too much to be this terrible.
There ya go... not a single grown-up word. Well, except for "sex", but I learned that one in your book.
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Where's the Errata after over a year?
Why isn't the errata that has been released (For S.G. & The Core book) complete?
Why can't Catalyst publish a book that is not riddled with errors, omissions and half-written rules?
/drops mic
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So I went looking for the TOS to see if discussing moderation action was verboten - I wasn't able to find the written TOS (looking on my phone though) so please let me know if orthogonal comment on moderation action is not allowed.
I ask because I note that Marcus's prior post was totally deleted. Yes I understand it was incendiary. I'm not referencing that point of it or defending it one way or another.
I do think it's a valid point to say the game comes across like "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" and "writers seem to be making things up as they go" - which is reinforced by the lack of updated official errata and the need to rely on freelancer forum posts, which (IMO) are unlikely to be vetted by the highest authorities on the game - as in, what you intended is rest and all, but you're not in a position to determine whether your RAI are how the RAW are supposed to work - one presumes that a lancer submits their draft and the editor (or some developer) brings it into compliance where it is lacking.
I'm going to contrast this with another game. Exalted 2e is notorious for having a gigantic errata document which freelancers did, for free, and which was approved by an employee of the company controlling the IP, to provide as much support as possible for a frankly broken system. Exalted 3e is only out to backers, but you have non-developer authors clarifying their intent with regard to their writing, without claiming that just because hey wrote it, that's how it should be in relation to the RAW. Instead they're saying "this is my intent but I'm not a developer so this is not Word of God, I'm trying to clarify but I'm not speaking officially."
I don't think we get either of those here. We get no errata, and writers speak authoritatively on their intent, when they may in fact have no authority to decide greater rules interactions as they are not the book or line dev.
Therefore to me, writer intent is valuable on an academic level, but ultimately not that useful, and hardly conclusive. Especially at tables where people care only about the book RAW + errata (certainly in part because a lot of people play the game but don't use the forum, or don't know author handles on it, so published books + official errata is all you can truly depend on).
Hence these feelings that there is no communication, no effective leadership/editing, and a lot of times author intent very often comes off as dissonant from the actual printed rules that we paid for. Look at the "clarification" on slaving and PANs as to how that kind if statement just causes more confusion when it conflicts with what the book itself is saying.
So it concerns me where those aspects of the post were also deleted, not just the inflammatory material, because I see these parts as legitimate criticism of the process and product, which I thought we were allowed to express.
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WhiskeyJack, I 100% agree with you.
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Where's the Errata after over a year?
Why isn't the errata that has been released (For S.G. & The Core book) complete?
Why can't Catalyst publish a book that is not riddled with errors, omissions and half-written rules?
/drops mic
Cause its all written in German apparently? Seriously I dont see the point of kicking sand in the mods face, just move on. will also point out though 4th Edition had a multitude of alternatives rules (some the early stages of limits where the skill rating also equaled the number of successes you got to keep) Seriously though if you dont like the product either A dont buy it or B write a letter to the company expressing your displeasure, no use taking it out on a forum post the company will not read. what they will read is social media their website is http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/ which lists all their facebook twitter and the like if you want answers I suggest going there instead of taking it out here. heck write a petition get other people to sign it do something other than complain like a 5 year old kid to a group of people that cant do anything to fix it.
Heck I'll do you one more #fixshadowrun5 @catalystgamelab I hate hashtags but guess what if it didnt work people wouldnt use them.
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I thought that there was clarification that they do not cost double after character generation, but if taken at character generation, count towards positive quality karma limit (thought I wish this wasn't the case).
In other news: Was there any initiation rituals/enhancements/metamagics associated with the Artisan's Way? It's the one Way that got forgotten in that section.
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I thought that there was clarification that they do not cost double after character generation, but if taken at character generation, count towards positive quality karma limit (thought I wish this wasn't the case).
That’s kinda how this whole thing started…
They do NOT count towards maximum positive qualities
I believe the author said so ... Need to check up on that again.
Yes I did, you are correct. 8)
And some have claimed the Ways price doubles post character gen, which my group ignores cause about .75 PP refund and cheaper foci/similar effect is not worth 40 karma.
They do not cost 40 post char gen, so you're doing it correctly.
8)
Mystic is apparently the author of those sections. And stepped forward to clarify that they do not count towards the 25 point limit, nor do they double in price post-CharGen.
To which I replied… but my reply was mysteriously deleted for using too many naughty words. And thus started this whole conversation about how the freelancers make stuff up as they go, with no adherence to the established rules. And nobody comes along behind them to make sure that what they said in Section A makes sense when compared to Section B. And how we (the community) are still somewhat at a loss as to whether their hitherto unvoiced intentions of how they wanted their section of rules to work, should be taken as official errata. When the Rules As Written say one thing, but (someone claiming to be) the author says something completely different.
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I doubt that anyone is 'claiming' to be an author when they're not.
However, as has been pointed out, just because an author intended xyz does not mean that once its submitted that the person aobve him intended to keep it xyz,
And the booken record- it would be nice if the people or person (if its just one) who does decide what is ultimately intended would stop playing Battletech long enough to state what intended is, especially in the matrix rules and that blurb 2/3 of the people ignore in SG about spirits only being limited to their domain- combat/combat, health/health. Oh and I'm sure others want clarification on a whole host of things not mentioned,
Not that I'm disparaging Battletech- played it for years...but if it can get effective errata so should SR.
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Let's just all agree that the Street Grimoire was drek and move on. The guy in charge admitted to the problem and has vowed to fix it which to a good degree things are better than they were. But they do not have a monetary incentive to actually go back and rewrite the Grimoire to make sense and be of use because everyone would just demand it to be free.
That being said, it has been said by the design team that Ways are not positive quantities, that they are not doubled after creation and basically have their own new set of rules. So if during creation, you have 20 karma you can buy a Way. It doesn't matter if you maxed out your positive quantities or not. After creation, you can spend 20 karma and get about .75 power points back for adept powers.
To me, it's not worth it, since Initiation is cheaper and I can still say I follow a Way just by selecting the suggested powers but to each their own.
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Ways give access to a few unique powers, which are quite helpful in some cases. Also, getting that 50% discount for every two points of Magic really can add up.
Domain of the Warrior, for example, lets you reduce the penalties from background counts caused by violence by Initiate level +1. Assuming Magic 8 and you only discounted 0.50 Adept Powers, you've also gotten a 'free' full Power Point (with .25 more per two points of Magic you get). On top of that, you've got a 2 Karma discount on bonding with Weapon Foci. Hell, looking at the Spiritual Way you could argue that their Metamagic to ignore 1+Initiate Level in Background count from religious/spiritual locations applies to insect shamans and some blood magic sites.
Initiation is cheaper to start, but Ways throw in more goodies and can grow with more Initiations.
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3/4 initiation they are effectively the same cost, and with the discount kicking in everytime your magic hits value/2 (aka even number) that is really sweet. Heck .75pp can get you some sweet powers or upgrade ones you already have.
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Returning gamer to the SR fold, last time I ran/played was with 2nd ed and yes, I'm feeling very old these days.
On Topic:
With all due respect, I understand that adding my voice to the grumbling is more "negative noise" and thus easy to tune out, but honestly, it makes me appreciate how Paizo runs their shop more than ever.
My group consists of 5 individuals who have been gamers (2 of them pros in the industry) for nearly 30 years now, and we all are aware of the challenges inherit in this industry, but the SG is a decidedly frustrating product. SR is on its 5th evolution, the support books should have a lot more clarity than is currently the case and is likely due to too many cooks adding to the stew.
I respectfully suggest SR's IP owners get together, appoint a committed project leader who gets all participating authors on the same page and definitively clean up the SG with a official 2nd printing (with a discount for owners of the 1st print). At some point you got to eat the frog and do the right thing with the product you put on the market, and not insist your customers have to wade through a sea of forum posts for answers. This is your baby and I'm quite certain a massive labor of love, don't let complacency ruin what could be achieved with honorable followup.
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I'll agree the ways have more then their fair share of issues. For a number of reasons. If you want make them kinda viable then treat them as martial arts. The thread where that was mentioned is in forum somewhere. I'm sure that hasn't and isn't going to be added to the errata though.
It is worth noting beast way was one the most rapid errata's of 5th to date.
I'm not saying everything is prefect and full agavy love, but some one does have some kind of vision of balance. Regardless it's not a huge deal You can always house rule it at your table, if ya just can't stand it.
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The problem there is folks are getting tired of house-ruling it at their tables. There's too many problems, of which this is a relatively minor one.
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Returning gamer to the SR fold, last time I ran/played was with 2nd ed and yes, I'm feeling very old these days.
On Topic:
With all due respect, I understand that adding my voice to the grumbling is more "negative noise" and thus easy to tune out, but honestly, it makes me appreciate how Paizo runs their shop more than ever.
My group consists of 5 individuals who have been gamers (2 of them pros in the industry) for nearly 30 years now, and we all are aware of the challenges inherit in this industry, but the SG is a decidedly frustrating product. SR is on its 5th evolution, the support books should have a lot more clarity than is currently the case and is likely due to too many cooks adding to the stew.
I respectfully suggest SR's IP owners get together, appoint a committed project leader who gets all participating authors on the same page and definitively clean up the SG with a official 2nd printing (with a discount for owners of the 1st print). At some point you got to eat the frog and do the right thing with the product you put on the market, and not insist your customers have to wade through a sea of forum posts for answers. This is your baby and I'm quite certain a massive labor of love, don't let complacency ruin what could be achieved with honorable followup.
Unfortunately, Catalyst doesn't read this forum and hasn't seemed interested in replacing whoever is ultimately in charge of this edition of the line and/or its editing.
It's pretty clear this is a line-level issue, because BattleTech gets regular errata, so you can't say it's really the IP owner's fault, beyond a failure to replace the people in charge of the line.
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They've fallen down and cant get up.
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Unfortunately, Catalyst doesn't read this forum and hasn't seemed interested in replacing whoever is ultimately in charge of this edition of the line and/or its editing.
Honestly, with attitudes like this flying around the boards, one can't really blame the Powers That Be for not reading posts here much. Why bother when instead of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism there's just a bunch of insults directed at them?
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Unfortunately, Catalyst doesn't read this forum and hasn't seemed interested in replacing whoever is ultimately in charge of this edition of the line and/or its editing.
Honestly, with attitudes like this flying around the boards, one can't really blame the Powers That Be for not reading posts here much. Why bother when instead of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism there's just a bunch of insults directed at them?
Because burying your head in the sand is a solution? Spare me.
I didn't make a personal attack on the editor in my post. It's not a personal attack to suggest a person should be replaced if many inconsistencies/vaguenesses, let alone blatant errors, are making it to publication. The editing of this line is objectively flawed and has been lacking for years - evidenced by the threads on these forums, no recent errata despite ongoing problems, and finally forumites making their own FAQ because nothing official seems to ever be forthcoming. The problems are painfully obvious to anyone who reads the books.
So you think we should fluff up peoples' egos because saying the end product is bad, is mean? You can do what you want - I'm not interested in being tone policed when my posts aren't TOS violations. I paid good money for these books, which I expected to be more usable on their own merits, without excessive table tweaking/interpretations/seeking community support, and that just isn't the case. In no way do I expect perfection but there is a big gap between perfection and simply consistent rules/good editing.
People would be more understanding if this problem was ever acknowledged by the powers that be, or if it was a one-off occurrence in a book released early in the line, not when the problems are systemic, ongoing, and show no signs of ceasing. I think it's safe to say a lot of people have given many benefits of the doubt, but continuing to do the same thing over and over when the results are the same is insanity. I am probably not alone saying that I have no more benefit of the doubt to give because my reserve of sympathy, understanding, and goodwill is not infinite.
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We're well past constructive criticism, that ship sailed a long time ago when the management gave up on any semblance of caring.
At this point it's just up to the community to fix what we paid $$ for.
Which doesn't engender any sympathy for the awol publisher, Catalyst.
If they actually spent some effort on releasing errata and updating PDF books to reflect said changes then I think everyone would be relatively happy.
However, given their track record (a year and counting with no errata, no updates to PDFs to incorporate old errata) we know that is not going to be happen.
So it's up to us to fix it, see Falar's fan-run "fix shadowrun cause no one else will" wiki.
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I don't know how much is on catalyst versus specifically the SR line leadership. Sure catalyst should have a hand in developing the IP and checking the thermometer of community opinion, but ultimately they do a lot more than just SR. Certainly they should be providing more oversight than they currently appear to be. But the weight is definitely resting more on the specific SR structure.
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I agree Whiskey but I was hit with the ban hammer for calling out the line manager so now i'm just going to refer to Catalyst going forward.