[Rapier]

Hi,

I was wondering how green is North America compared to today? Ok Seattle is mostly concrete but what about the Tyr, UCAS, and the rest of the continent.

Thanks

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It is much more urbanized than real life, but the rural areas aren't necessarily greener.  Toxic Zones are so common there's a term for them

Population distribution in the Sixth World isn't exactly like Mega City One, but it's closer to Mega City One than reality.

Some areas, notably the Tir and NAN nations, do strive to create pristine wilderness but they're the exception rather than the rule.  And they've got an uphill struggle against the ravages of war, corporate exploitation, pollution, and magical chaos.

[farothel]

I guess most of the national parks that exist now will exist in the future, although they might be less accessible due to magic, (magical) critters, being in a different country or all of the above.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I guess most of the national parks that exist now will exist in the future, although they might be less accessible due to magic, (magical) critters, being in a different country or all of the above.

Or became sensitive military sites (example, Crater Lake).  Or, related to being in a new country: reverted from being national parks to being sites of spiritual significance by formerly marginalized peoples (like, basically every natural park west of the Mississippi)

[Shinobi Killfist]

North America is ridiculously massive for its population. Much of it would be green in the sense that it’s not built up due to that. And 1/2 of it is controlled by the nan which many of their nations give at least a verbal nod towards environmentalism. So probably about the same as today in the NAN. UCAS/CAS probably much worse than today.

[mcv]

I would expect Salish-Shee, Amazonia and other countries that make eco-stuff a primary objective to be greener than today, but everywhere else to be a lot worse.

[Michael Chandra]

On the other hand, given the hits to population (hello VITAS! hello VITAS again!) and increased threats due to smaller countries and various wars, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people fled the wilds and they are, well, more wild now.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

On the other hand, given the hits to population (hello VITAS! hello VITAS again!) and increased threats due to smaller countries and various wars, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people fled the wilds and they are, well, more wild now.

Yeah I haven't studied in depth, but I believe total population numbers are lower in the 6th world but the sprawls are much more populated.  Which leaves a VASTLY smaller rural population, even before environmental policies (or lack thereof).

[Longshot23]

There's something from Target: UCAS or the UCAS chapter in Shadows of North America that says that recycling is almost a 'religion' in the UCAS. If that's what you mean by 'How Green is North America'?

Supposedly the NAN and Tir Tairngire are very green-oriented, because they don't want to be more of the same - or something.

[RiggerBob]

On the other hand, given the hits to population (hello VITAS! hello VITAS again!) and increased threats due to smaller countries and various wars, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people fled the wilds and they are, well, more wild now.

Yeah I haven't studied in depth, but I believe total population numbers are lower in the 6th world but the sprawls are much more populated.  Which leaves a VASTLY smaller rural population, even before environmental policies (or lack thereof).

World population by our numbers today is estimated to reach 10 billion in 2080.

The numbers mentioned in older books for both global waves of VITAS (2010 and 2022) are 1.7 billion and 500 million deaths (combined about 33% of the population at that time), which actually only sets the population back about 30 years (6.9 billion in 2010, 4.5 billion in 1980)...

Which still leaves us with estimated 9.3 billion people in 2080 (the number that should be reached in 2050, without VITAS) or more than 2 billion more than today.

And that's ignoring for example the faster life cycle of orks (and the fact that same orks are poorer on average with poorer parts of the population statistically having more kids anyway....)


So... even when we include VITAS it's really not realistic to assume a lower global population by 2080.

[Rapier]

I was just wondering how much of the land was still forested or "natural" as opposed to urban or suburban.

[Michael Chandra]

On the other hand, given the hits to population (hello VITAS! hello VITAS again!) and increased threats due to smaller countries and various wars, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people fled the wilds and they are, well, more wild now.

World population by our numbers today is estimated to reach 10 billion in 2080.

The numbers mentioned in older books for both global waves of VITAS (2010 and 2022) are 1.7 billion and 500 million deaths (combined about 33% of the population at that time), which actually only sets the population back about 30 years (6.9 billion in 2010, 4.5 billion in 1980)...

Which still leaves us with estimated 9.3 billion people in 2080 (the number that should be reached in 2050, without VITAS) or more than 2 billion more than today.

And that's ignoring for example the faster life cycle of orks (and the fact that same orks are poorer on average with poorer parts of the population statistically having more kids anyway....)


So... even when we include VITAS it's really not realistic to assume a lower global population by 2080.

Eh, true enough, those given how Orks die young as well, I wouldn't say they'll mean a faster population growth. But we can't apply current growth level to a world with Dragons, the Sea Dragon, etc, etc. Anyway, if we look at what constitutes the UCAS, its 2010 population was approx 162m, while in Shadowrun it is listed as 172m. So honestly I think we can roughly summarise to a 1:1 relation to current days instead.

So, back to OP: Assuming equal population but more focused in cities, and several magic stuff going on, basically more green than nowadays.

[RiggerBob]

At least in the NAN and Tir Tairngire there have been multiple reforestation programs (with assistance of magic).

Anyway, if we look at what constitutes the UCAS, its 2010 population was approx 162m, while in Shadowrun it is listed as 172m.

Do these 172 million include SINless?

[Michael Chandra]

No idea. Don't know the source of the number. But I highly doubt it excludes them.

[mcv]

Supposedly the NAN and Tir Tairngire are very green-oriented, because they don't want to be more of the same - or something.

Is it the entire NAN? I know the Salish-Sidhe Council is, but I thought the PCC might have a different attitude. And Tsimshian is a toxic hellhole.