Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: belaran on <01-14-17/1732:36>
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Hi,
Having resume playing Shadowrun over a year ago, after a hiatus that lasted through most of 3ed and all 4ed, I've decided to brush up on my Tir Tairngire lore knowledge by reading (again) Tir Tairngire (2nd ed), Shadows of North America (3ed update), Land of Promises (4ed update) and the few pages on the recent elections in Storm Front (also 4ed). First question, did I miss something, somehwere ?
It certainly feels so, as I could not find in which book (from 3ed ?) the coup of 2064 is documented. Especially, I would like to know a bit more how this coup came to be and what are the whereabout of the "princes on the run" - Sean Laverty and Hugh Surehand, but also maybe Ehran and the other. Or is this coup really not documented ?
BTW, I've quickly browsed System Failure and only though a footnote about Surehand on p.108
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It was literally just that one plot point in System Failure.
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Yeah, there really hasn't been anything written about it. You might find a couple more references in the Sixth World Almanac, but otherwise, it happened, but was overshadowed by other events (like the Crash).
Laverty is still in TT, AFAIK, but is keeping a low profile well away from Cara'sir, teaching more elven mages.
Ehran is the head of the DIMR, and was involved in the Artifacts plot. Also showed up in Denver to stop Harlequin and Ghostwalker from taking their fight to the bitter end.
Surehand is in Seattle, or thereabouts, trying to secure a path back to power in TT.
Nivarra was seen during the Artifacts plot, doing creepy as fuck experiments that seemed to be turning part of the forests in TT into something like the Blood Wood.
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Nivarra was seen during the Artifacts plot, doing creepy as fuck experiments that seemed to be turning part of the forests in TT into something like the Blood Wood.
NO.
Kill her! KILL HER WITH FIRE!
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Gets even better. There's a little throwaway line in one of the books talking about how those Amazonian metavariant elves that live in the rain forest are fighting a splinter group that seem to be protecting/worshiping the Sangre del Diablo trees. A group of elves with thorns.
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Gets even better. There's a little throwaway line in one of the books talking about how those Amazonian metavariant elves that live in the rain forest are fighting a splinter group that seem to be protecting/worshiping the Sangre del Diablo trees. A group of elves with thorns.
And how blood elves supposedly got from the Ukraine to Amazonia, and became Xapiri Thepe as well, we will of course never know. ...........
Aithne Oakforest is in Pomorya afaik building himself a new powerbase and likely preparing a vendetta against Lofwyr.
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Aithne building a power base in Pomorya is (afaik) only mentioned in the (German) Novapuls magasine. Is there anything else "canon" that mentioned that ? Aithne is an important subplot of one of my campaign, I would love to have more intel on his whereabouts...
I also need to read again Earthdawn and the stuff about thorny, blood elves, completly forgot what they were about...
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Gets even better. There's a little throwaway line in one of the books talking about how those Amazonian metavariant elves that live in the rain forest are fighting a splinter group that seem to be protecting/worshiping the Sangre del Diablo trees. A group of elves with thorns.
I was reading this exact 'report' earlier today, and I remember thinking 'this isn't going to end well' . . . .
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Gets even better. There's a little throwaway line in one of the books talking about how those Amazonian metavariant elves that live in the rain forest are fighting a splinter group that seem to be protecting/worshiping the Sangre del Diablo trees. A group of elves with thorns.
And how blood elves supposedly got from the Ukraine to Amazonia, and became Xapiri Thepe as well, we will of course never know. ...........
Aithne Oakforest is in Pomorya afaik building himself a new powerbase and likely preparing a vendetta against Lofwyr.
Point 1: Boats, like everyone else.
Point 2: Magic is weird.
Point 3: Well, Loffy is most likely the one responsible for the death of Aithne's son. I'd be out for blood too.
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Gets even better. There's a little throwaway line in one of the books talking about how those Amazonian metavariant elves that live in the rain forest are fighting a splinter group that seem to be protecting/worshiping the Sangre del Diablo trees. A group of elves with thorns.
And how blood elves supposedly got from the Ukraine to Amazonia, and became Xapiri Thepe as well, we will of course never know. ...........
Aithne Oakforest is in Pomorya afaik building himself a new powerbase and likely preparing a vendetta against Lofwyr.
Point 1: Boats, like everyone else.
Point 2: Magic is weird.
Point 3: Well, Loffy is most likely the one responsible for the death of Aithne's son. I'd be out for blood too.
That's not my point. The blood elves of blood wood were before the ritual normal earthdawn elves, and after they were normal earthdawn elves but with thorns growing out of their bodies. They had not suddenly transformed into the amazonian metavariant Xapiri Thepe.
And if you want to imagine that at some point a group of blood elves somehow left blood wood and wandered all the way to Amazonia you still haven't explained why they are suddenly Xapiri Thepe.
I guess you could argue some sort of genetic spreading effect during the 5th world, but that falls short as well because if that was the case they should have appeared everywhere else as well.
The point is, it's an easy throwaway line to make, and on the surface sounds cool, but it makes no sense whatsoever when you look at it more closely. Now if that line had been about a weird phenomenon in the Ukraine for example around the vicinity of Tjernobyl it would have been very cool and would have made sense.
Btw does anyone remember where there's the info about Jenna Ni'fairra and her strange magical rituals?
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The stuff on Ni'fairra's happy fun time rituals was in Artifacts Unbound, the Something Dark in the Woods chapter.
As for how the blood elves got from Chernobyl to the US, well, the Immortal Elves had a lot of time to move around during the 5th World.
As for why they're showing up around the Diablo trees, there's two possible options. You decide which one you think is more comforting.
1) Someone cast a ritual Corrupting those elves, so that they wouldn't be harmed by the Diablo trees, much as the Blood Elves of old didn't taste as good to Horrors after they Corrupted themselves.
1a) Where did they learn the ritual from? Only three options - magic experimentation, they were shown how by a spirit or an Immortal Elf living in their tribe, or some damn fool left instructions on the ritual.
1b) This would mean that the Diablo trees are at least tangentially related to Horrors if Corruption makes their food not taste as good.
2) The Symbiosis quality Corrupted the Xapiri Thepe into a form that could thrive amongst the Diablos.
2a) This would mean that besides spreading and eating people, the Diablos are Corrupting the manasphere and environment on a local level.
2b) This means we may perhaps be looking at a new round of SURGE-like effects as Corruption spreads.
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It may also mean Diablo trees now have agents to spread them to other locales . . .
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It may also mean Diablo trees now have agents to spread them to other locales . . .
They already had that in Aztechnology.
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Precisely none of those options are comforting.
Goddammit, Alachia...Her hubris started this mess.
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Precisely none of those options are comforting.
Goddammit, Alachia...Her hubris started this mess.
It did. ..and it didn't.
Certainly Alachia was the one to turn down the Theran kaers out of pride and an unwillingness to pay their steep prices, and then the elven wooden kaer stated to fail. But it was not Alachia that came up with the idea for the ritual of thorns, it was her wardens and she rejected the idea the first time and only very reluctantly agreed when there was no choice.
The reason the blood elves carried on with the ritual on their children after the scourge was because they knew that if they stopped not only would the true pattern of blood wood be destroyed but so would the true pattern of every single blood elf.
At the time of the blood wood supplement Alachia actually thinks she may have found a way to restore the true pattern of wyrmwood and is actively pursuing this in secret.
So things are not as black and white as Caroline Spector would have us think in worlds without end.
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It may also mean Diablo trees now have agents to spread them to other locales . . .
They already had that in Aztechnology.
Yeah, but Aztechnology has a lot of other irons in the fire. This group of Xapiri Thepe are dedicated.
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Maybe, but they still have a civil war on their hands, so until they have either won or lost, it seems like they have their hands full.
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Huh. Well that would go a ways towards softening my stance towards Alachia if true.
Because currently, she is right the top of my list of "Arrogant, powermad assholes to avoid at all costs" in the Sixth World.
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Huh. Well that would go a ways towards softening my stance towards Alachia if true.
Because currently, she is right the top of my list of "Arrogant, powermad assholes to avoid at all costs" in the Sixth World.
She's still a powermad asshole, but not all of the Blood Wood's suffering was her fault. That would be giving her far too much credit.
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Huh. Well that would go a ways towards softening my stance towards Alachia if true.
Because currently, she is right the top of my list of "Arrogant, powermad assholes to avoid at all costs" in the Sixth World.
She's still a powermad asshole, but not all of the Blood Wood's suffering was her fault. That would be giving her far too much credit.
Dwagon, you should DEFINITELY have that stance towards ANY Immortal Elf, Dragon, megacorporate executive, national politician, or religious leader. ALL of them. The ones in those roles who aren't powermad assholes have been taken out or replaced by people who are, and power and arrogance go hand in hand.
The best you can say is that there are some who are less asshole-ish than others. Sean Laverty just wants to teach elves magic. Aina just wanted to escape the Horror of her past. Big D and Hestaby are (or were, in Big D's case) pretty chill for dragons. Schwartzkopf just enjoys being a professor and seeing how the young races find new ways to do things this cycle. But don't let that fool you into thinking that any of them don't have tons of power, and know how to use it for their benefit. They're all schemers and manipulators of the highest order. A benevolent arrogant, powermad asshole is still an arrogant powermad asshole.
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Dwagon, you should DEFINITELY have that stance towards ANY Immortal Elf, Dragon, megacorporate executive, national politician, or religious leader. ALL of them. The ones in those roles who aren't powermad assholes have been taken out or replaced by people who are, and power and arrogance go hand in hand.
I do. It's why I have a LIST. :)
It just so happens she's at the top of that list. Any one of those things is "AVOID AT ALL COSTS", but the ranking comes down to the fine details.
If I'm going to die, I'd rather not listen to a millenia old has-been queen preach at me about the inherent purity/superiority of elvenkind and her in particular.
The best you can say is that there are some who are less asshole-ish than others. Sean Laverty just wants to teach elves magic. Aina just wanted to escape the Horror of her past. Big D and Hestaby are (or were, in Big D's case) pretty chill for dragons. Schwartzkopf just enjoys being a professor and seeing how the young races find new ways to do things this cycle. But don't let that fool you into thinking that any of them don't have tons of power, and know how to use it for their benefit. They're all schemers and manipulators of the highest order. A benevolent arrogant, powermad asshole is still an arrogant powermad asshole.
I am more aware of that than you probably assume of me.
In every scenario I write, someone is always playing someone else and there's always an ulterior motive or greater plan.
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And how blood elves supposedly got from the Ukraine to Amazonia, and became Xapiri Thepe as well, we will of course never know. ...........
(snip)
That's not my point. The blood elves of blood wood were before the ritual normal earthdawn elves, and after they were normal earthdawn elves but with thorns growing out of their bodies. They had not suddenly transformed into the amazonian metavariant Xapiri Thepe.
And if you want to imagine that at some point a group of blood elves somehow left blood wood and wandered all the way to Amazonia you still haven't explained why they are suddenly Xapiri Thepe.
I guess you could argue some sort of genetic spreading effect during the 5th world, but that falls short as well because if that was the case they should have appeared everywhere else as well.
The point is, it's an easy throwaway line to make, and on the surface sounds cool, but it makes no sense whatsoever when you look at it more closely. Now if that line had been about a weird phenomenon in the Ukraine for example around the vicinity of Tjernobyl it would have been very cool and would have made sense.
Btw does anyone remember where there's the info about Jenna Ni'fairra and her strange magical rituals?
Just a thought, but... if an Elven race was normal, then held a big ritual and grew thorns, and then another Elven group, a far, far distance away, who were not known to have thorns, suddenly showed up with them, would it make more sense to think that:
A) A group of Elves moves across the entire planet, rebuilt their culture, their language, their genotype, then waited 10,000 years, came out in a disguise, then suddenly pulled their thorns back out, or,
B) Someone got access to the same ritual and performed it for their people.
Just, you know. Tossing a thought out there. Don't mind me! I'll be moving along now...
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B absolutely as has already been suggested by Mirikon.
Eventhough it should be said that there's several issues with this explanation as well.
1) Who taught it to them? The number of people who have direct knowledge of the ritual can be counted on one hand, and would more than likely only number anyone who was actually in blood wood at the time of its casting. As I have already said Alachia is seen in earthdawn materials to be seeking a cure for blood wood, so I have difficulty seeing her as the culprit. As I said earlier this image of Alachia as the evil queen incarnated is Caroline Spectors doing and isn't really substantiated in ED materials, or at least is a whole lot more complex than her black and white picture.
2) The ritual of thorns is like all high level ED rituals an unique ritual and should therefore have been modified considerably. Again the number of people actually able to do so isn't very high.
3) The ritual of thorns like all unique ED rituals is of such a high circle (probably 13+) that it can't be cast until the mana levels are high enough. Yes I know this happened with the ghost dance, but that noticeably altered Astral space at the site and no such phenomena has been reported in Amazonia. And such a ritual would have sent astral shock waves out while and after it was cast, and none of Amazonias 3-4 great dragons noticed this?
As I said before it's an easy throwaway line to write, but substantially harder to actually explain so it makes sense.
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Actually, it isn't that hard to explain so it makes sense.
Who taught them? Several possibilities. While I agree that Alachia wouldn't repeat the mistakes of the past (she makes all new ones), that doesn't mean that the knowledge wasn't passed on. Remember, before the CFD plot started up, we had Artifacts from the Earthdawn era 'waking up'. At least one of them has been confirmed to be an artifact with rituals that warped some of the forests in Tir Tairngir. The people who created the Ritual of Thorns knew that magic was cyclical, having had warning of the Horrors from the previous age of magic (see: Therans), so they may well have created and hidden instructions on the ritual, so that future elves would know how to protect themselves from the Horrors.
While the major Immortal Elves likely aren't involved in this, there are, canonically, more than just the handful we normally talk about in conjunction with the Tirs. Not many, but upwards of 20, IIRC. We have no way of knowing if one of them may not have become Corrupted, or sought the Ritual of Thorns for noble reasons to protect the elven tribes.
While it is unlikely in the extreme, remember that there are quite a few dragons in that area, and dragons can be bastards. It wouldn't surprise me if the Ritual of Thorns was used as a way to try and combat the Diablo trees, and it has spiraled out of control (like magic wants to do).
But honestly? There's another scenario that makes much more sense. Amazonia is a very magical country, with a LOT of their version of shamans. Who do shamans like to talk to? Spirits. And spirits may know, or have access to the knowledge, how to modify and perform the Ritual. We've already had one major plot involving spirits and plants, as well, in that same area. If one of the shadow spirits from the Ghost Cartels plot got loose, well, that would explain a lot, no?
As for the power levels, remember that magic levels are higher now than they were during the Ghost Dance. And while the knowledge for the Ritual of Thorns is higher, the power required to change a single tribe is far less. Instead of an 'all at once' thing, I'd say 'village by village' is more likely. Both because the rituals wouldn't send out shockwaves to let everyone know what's up, and because it would require less sacrifice, maybe even none, depending on the group size, and how willing the spirits were in helping out.
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The method you describe would also make it easier for the spirits to benefit from the pain and otherwise subvert the original purpose of the Ritual of Thorns.
Additionally, given the various Class 3 SURGE effects introduced in Runner's Companion, a thorn expression would easily explain the condition. If you can turn into a manifestation of Ganesh or a flesh-form looking victim or express the photosynthetic abilities of Xapiri Thepe.
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And there was a Theran presence in South America (Araucania): a blood elf may have migrated to the area. Ehran had a base in the Amazon, no? And I agree with Mir, that while the the conversion of the terrain and pattern of the Wyrmwood is a high level ritual requiring enormous power and sacrifice, the conversion of a single or small group of elves into blood elves would be a smaller, and very doable ritual in the 6th world.
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The horns are simply an opportunistic trick, self inflicted.
Why? Well, Hualpa's not directly fond of metahumans meddling in his forests, isn't he?
Obvious pattern:
-Grow Horns Magically
-Claim to be SURGE-Victims to get positive rep and shelter
-Stick around the Sangre Del Diablo
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-Profit
And for those who wonder what "Profit" I speak of, try to get some Diablo-juice from your talismonger and see what it costs.
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And there was a Theran presence in South America (Araucania): a blood elf may have migrated to the area. Ehran had a base in the Amazon, no?
Yes. One of the adventures in the Harlequin module is set in his residence outside Bogotá.
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And there was a Theran presence in South America (Araucania): a blood elf may have migrated to the area. Ehran had a base in the Amazon, no?
Yes. One of the adventures in the Harlequin module is set in his residence outside Bogotá.
Which probably got leveled during the Azt/Am war.
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Yes. One of the adventures in the Harlequin module is set in his residence outside Bogotá.
Which probably got leveled during the Azt/Am war.
I think Ehran's plantation was located somewhere along the Jutaí River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutai_River) which puts it in the northwest but well beyond Bogotá and the Aztlan-Amazonian border.
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Yes. One of the adventures in the Harlequin module is set in his residence outside Bogotá.
Which probably got leveled during the Azt/Am war.
I think Ehran's plantation was located somewhere along the Jutaí River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutai_River) which puts it in the northwest but well beyond Bogotá and the Aztlan-Amazonian border.
Either way, the entire area is extremely toxic (thanks Aztlan!). Without some massive cleanup efforts, the area's astral is probably far too toxic for him, or any mage for that matter.
That's if Aztlan didn't go out of their way to firebomb the place into oblivion because reasons. I'm sure they have ways of finding out the true identity of the property's owner. Even if they don't, they would know that the owner is stupid wealthy, has absurd amounts of magical security, and isn't on their side.
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Either way, the entire area is extremely toxic (thanks Aztlan!). Without some massive cleanup efforts, the area's astral is probably far too toxic for him, or any mage for that matter.
That's if Aztlan didn't go out of their way to firebomb the place into oblivion because reasons. I'm sure they have ways of finding out the true identity of the property's owner. Even if they don't, they would know that the owner is stupid wealthy, has absurd amounts of magical security, and isn't on their side.
There's a cool run idea there. "Ehran was forced to abandon his Amazonian house during the war, leaving precious artifacts or grimoires behind. Because of the toxic areas surrounding it, he hasn't been able to return yet. Mr. Johnson wants your team to reach the place and grab the loot. What he forgot to tell you is that Ehran left powerful spirits to guard the site... Or he did tell you, but wasn't aware some of said spirits have turned toxic due to the surrounding pollution."
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But the place is hundreds of kilometres away from Bogotá. As far as I know the war was hardly fought on previously undisputed Amazonian territory at all. Bogotá sits above the north-western edge of the Amazon basin, the engagement on Amazonian territory was confined to this area and there air strikes were used to destroy the rainforest. The interior was never affected.
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I think Ehran's plantation was located somewhere along the Jutaí River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutai_River) which puts it in the northwest but well beyond Bogotá and the Aztlan-Amazonian border.
Ah. I forgot how far away it was. Thanks.
If the Azzies knew about it (and given Harlequin's recent actions, this seems possible), they'd go out of their way to raid and/or bomb it.
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Either way, the entire area is extremely toxic (thanks Aztlan!). Without some massive cleanup efforts, the area's astral is probably far too toxic for him, or any mage for that matter.
That's if Aztlan didn't go out of their way to firebomb the place into oblivion because reasons. I'm sure they have ways of finding out the true identity of the property's owner. Even if they don't, they would know that the owner is stupid wealthy, has absurd amounts of magical security, and isn't on their side.
There's a cool run idea there. "Ehran was forced to abandon his Amazonian house during the war, leaving precious artifacts or grimoires behind. Because of the toxic areas surrounding it, he hasn't been able to return yet. Mr. Johnson wants your team to reach the place and grab the loot. What he forgot to tell you is that Ehran left powerful spirits to guard the site... Or he did tell you, but wasn't aware some of said spirits have turned toxic due to the surrounding pollution."
Dammit, stop giving me ideas! I already have several missions and at least two missions books planned, a dossier on an entirely new kingdom, and entirely new metamagics (ok, not completely new, perhaps "recovered" is a better word) all planned out, and I'm also designing a whole new tabletop RPG! GACK!