[FST_Gemstar]

Yeah, geneware is vague.

Marcus: I like the kicking focus and the character is solid. There seems to be a lot of capacity available in the legs still. Any plans for what you want to do with them? I'm thinking hydraulics for higher and farther jumps.   I  also like the use of the half arm :-). You wanted a Pime Data Haven membership, but why for this character?

[Marcus]

I agree the capacity is fairly open still, I was originally wanting to put a mortar in one, but then released i can't find rules for a mortar in 5th, so then I considered a grenade launcher, but it was availability 20, then I was playing around with cyber holster, but i wanted to go with longarms, then I looked at kits but didn't have enough capacity for that without trimming out the armor. The Hydraulics sound like a good idea. I also briefly considered the limb extension, but it has no rules for use as a weapon, and I don't think I want to irritate a GM that much.

As to DHM I like the flavor of the Quality, I'll admit it's not very useful, but this character just happened to not require much in the way of qualities. My decker builds always need so many qualities, I just can't get datahaven membership on one.  It really comes down to giving a character access to the discussion fluff in the books. It's not going to change anything; but I think it's fun. To me it connects the character to SR community at large. Kicks may not be the best character for that sort of thing, given he's not very developed at this point, but I like build and I think it's fun, without pushing the envelop too hard.

[Shadowjack]

I'd argue that  DHM is quite valuable as it gives you the opportunity to connect with others in the shadows. It's a great way to make new contacts and if the GM is aware of it there are a lot of doors opened, such as finding deals on military grade weapons, memberships into other groups, potentially valuable gossip, or even hiring a hacker for remote work, or w/e, the list is endless!

[PJ]

Regarding the issue/argument/frustration over how to rule on a cyber limb...

Technically, you use your core for most all muscle related movement.  Since limbs have separate stats, the character's Physical Limit represents what is left of the meat body (any limbs not cyber and torso too).  So, even assuming four fully maxed out limbs at Agi and Str 9, they are still attached to a meat body.  I'm assuming no cyber torso.

So let's assume a Bod 3, Rea 3, Str 1 character.  His Physical Limit is (2x1)+3+3=8/3=2.6, round to 3.  He sprints, using his Agi 9 legs for base rate, and Str for dice pool, but is limited to three hits.  From an in game point, because his legs are jacked to the max, hes way fast, but limited by his body and can't push it past three hits.

This now make hydraulic jacks more appealing, as they add not only to distance, but to your Limit.

Also is why I think a house rule allowing cyber torsos to have Agi and Str scores makes sense (and it doesn't explicitly say as shells they can't).  If someone wants to spend a base 5.5 Essence and boatloads of Nuyen for a maxed out Agi and Str, they should get it.

[Marcus]

The system examples are not that limiting, regardless of realistic physics, we know for sure that if you use a weapon one handed it only uses the arm in question stats, and yes that isn't stunning realistic. But that's how the system works. For the half arm the example is clear you use the average of the arm and normal statistic. In play I follow that as the standard. But I understand folks don't agree, and that's fine. IMO if you have 4 limbs you're done, average the 4 limbs together and that basically what your stat looks like. Again I understand many won't agree, but it's the only way I see to give the limbs the value they deserve, both in terms of essence and cash costs. 

[Strange]

The system examples are not that limiting, regardless of realistic physics, we know for sure that if you use a weapon one handed it only uses the arm in question stats, and yes that isn't stunning realistic. But that's how the system works. For the half arm the example is clear you use the average of the arm and normal statistic. In play I follow that as the standard. But I understand folks don't agree, and that's fine. IMO if you have 4 limbs you're done, average the 4 limbs together and that basically what your stat looks like. Again I understand many won't agree, but it's the only way I see to give the limbs the value they deserve, both in terms of essence and cash costs.

This is how I see it as well. Thumbs up.

[Whiskeyjack]

Totally agree with Marcus.

Playability >>>> verisimilitude.

[Novocrane]

For the half arm the example is clear you use the average of the arm and normal statistic.

Which example?

The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand).

Not this one.

[PJ]

I'm jumping on the Marcus bandwagon too.

Back in 2E, maybe 3E, they had a blurb about Muscle Replacement/Muscle Augmentation (and maybe even Bone Lacing) costing 20%-25% less in nuyen and Essence for each cyberlimb you had.  And they made a point of stating if you had all 4 replaced, you could not get the former.  This would lend umph to the argument if you have four limbs replaced, that is your Str and Agi.

I've been wondering about partial limbs and customizing myself.  The quote from the book has me thinking that a partial limb has your stats (it says enhanced not customized, but only specific tasks).  And since the book doesn't say a lower limb/hand/foot would receive a cost reduction for customizing, you might as well go full limb at that point if the partials don't get your stats..

I'm supposing full limb is for those that want all benefits, partial limbs and torsos/skulls for people that want fluff and/or capacity space.  And those that want to be cyborgs but have access to only beta clinics or worse (torsos/skulls).

[revan.be]

The system examples are not that limiting, regardless of realistic physics, we know for sure that if you use a weapon one handed it only uses the arm in question stats, and yes that isn't stunning realistic. But that's how the system works. For the half arm the example is clear you use the average of the arm and normal statistic. In play I follow that as the standard. But I understand folks don't agree, and that's fine. IMO if you have 4 limbs you're done, average the 4 limbs together and that basically what your stat looks like. Again I understand many won't agree, but it's the only way I see to give the limbs the value they deserve, both in terms of essence and cash costs.

Aaand there lies the problem with shadowrun in general.....
If a class suposedly mainly for the new player has you doing averages of your limbs and torsos stats,
each time different for different types of actions you do with them , shooting, longarm shooting, arm wrestling , sneaking driving whatever....
Then turns out after all that , not to be realistic but being made so for playability......

[Marcus]

For the half arm the example is clear you use the average of the arm and normal statistic.

Which example?

The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand).

Not this one.

No, from the paragraph before that.
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as
leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute
for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the
average value of all limbs involved in the task.

As I said I'm sure folk will disagree with my interpretation, and that's fine. But that's how I read it, and how it makes sense to me. If the Mods feel like clarifying great, but until I see something in an errata, that's how I see it under RAW.

I understand why folks read it differently, and there are some hinkie issue that arise with this when you look at from the stand point of partials and even worse hands/feet. But as the rules of balance dictate you get what you pay for, you spend the 5k+5k per attribute point for the first 8 and then 6.5k for the next couple and you get the average. It makes using the partials good but not amazing.

[gradivus]

This is a character thread, not a rules thread, so I'm not going to go on and on about physical limits.There are plenty of threads on this issue already. And mods have chimed in. Cyberlimbs do not figure into physical limits by the rules. Does this make sense? Absolutely not.

[ProfessorCirno]

The only time cyberlimbs were fine and made sense no problem were in Shadowrun: Returns where they're just simple buffs because the game assumes you're already using your whole body for whatever and it accepts things as abstractions.

Every time Shadowrun tries to make cyber limbs "realistic" it just turns into a projectile vomit of overcomplications and math.

EDIT: The rules also do some real janky things to game assumptions of where cyberlimbs are useful and where they aren't.  "I'm a pretty robust ork, I'll grab this cyberlimb to be even more robust!" is a thing that is intensely mathematically discouraged whereas "wow I'm basically one step away from complete muscle atrophy, quick cover my arm with steel, now I'm the best crack shot ever!" is mathematically encouraged.