Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: imperialus on <12-26-10/1326:19>
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Just read the blurb about Attitude on the frontpage and figured I would chime in with a suggestion.
Give each and every freelancer, editor, and anyone else who touches the manuscript a free PDF of Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life and Shadowbeat (Neo-Anarchists Guide to North America is also an option). Tell them that for every page, every paragraph they write they should look back at those books and ask themselves "Is what I am writing like this updated for 2072?" If the answer is no, then they need to rewrite it.
Please, for the love of all that is holy I want to love this book. I want everyone to love this book. I'm getting very tired of defending CGL all over the internet. You have the opportunity to be awesome now. Please, please, please use it!
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I guess you're to late!
And my last information about Attitude was that it is for high class or High Society, the rich the famous and the spoiled. But my informations are very old...
And the books you're talking about aren't that brilliant at all. Background stories were okay and nice, but the rules and equipment were not!
What I await is a book that gives use a little bit of this and a little bit of that...
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My thought was that it's illogical to suggest that the way to advance a game is to bind it irrevocably to its past. I mean, yeah, if there's good stuff, loot away. But, only take what's good and what's relevant to the direction that the game's heading.
It's like all the movies we see lately that are simply aping movies from the 70's and 80's instead of trying to introduce something new, is that really how you want the creative process to work? Imitating what's already there?
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Some of my characters are wealthy, Lifestyle High or more, and so I hope there will be more for the Life of rich and famous people, but we will see...
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My thought was that it's illogical to suggest that the way to advance a game is to bind it irrevocably to its past. I mean, yeah, if there's good stuff, loot away. But, only take what's good and what's relevant to the direction that the game's heading.
It's like all the movies we see lately that are simply aping movies from the 70's and 80's instead of trying to introduce something new, is that really how you want the creative process to work? Imitating what's already there?
It is a hard line for the writers to work. Creativity is essential to keep the game fresh, but at the same time there has to be enough similarity to at least imply some kind of continuity, or the long-term players will be irritated that their favorite game's setting just went from "High Tech and Low Life" to "2010 with Elves".
Not a job I'd want to take on without a lot of research and support. ;)
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I fully understand the need to tie back to the games history and to research what you're working on. That's why I even went so far as to say loot the good stuff.
But, read the OP, he basically says "if you don't copy/paste then change 2050 to 2073, scrap and start over".
There's a difference between rehashing the old and learning from it.
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just remember, the high and mightly, the all powerful, dont always look like they are. Some live very simple lives but have many powerful friends
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I fully understand the need to tie back to the games history and to research what you're working on. That's why I even went so far as to say loot the good stuff.
But, read the OP, he basically says "if you don't copy/paste then change 2050 to 2073, scrap and start over".
There's a difference between rehashing the old and learning from it.
I think his point was more on the lines of suggesting that the writers take into consideration what worked well about previous takes on the same topics in the setting, rather than starting over from scratch and risking thematic drift.
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There will be no going forward if one continually stare into the rear-view mirror.
I just hope Attitude gives us a view of the average joe life in SR, as right now everything is from a runners POV. This then slants a whole lot of issues, like why is wireless everywhere when it gets in the way of doing runner business.
Seeing how joe benefits from this, and similar, may help cut back on some background noise.
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If we're looking to previous books, of course, then the two State of the Art books from 3rd ed are totally worth it too.
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I fully understand the need to tie back to the games history and to research what you're working on. That's why I even went so far as to say loot the good stuff.
But, read the OP, he basically says "if you don't copy/paste then change 2050 to 2073, scrap and start over".
There's a difference between rehashing the old and learning from it.
I think his point was more on the lines of suggesting that the writers take into consideration what worked well about previous takes on the same topics in the setting, rather than starting over from scratch and risking thematic drift.
Yeah, that's basically my point. Shadowrun seems to have lost a lot of its direction and focus over the past year. The new writers don't seem connected to the history and background of the setting. I was being somewhat hyperbolic but my point stands, the new writers need to develop a deeper understanding of what made Shadowrun what it is now and then they can start worrying about how to make it their own... I mean just for example, if the new writeup for the Urban Brawl rules doesn't at least pay lip service to the rules that were portrayed in Shadowbeat I'll be ticked.
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Given that writers are required to read almost nothing about Shadowrun itself by now (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2047.0), I don't think they're gonna read anything on RL related issues.
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see, now I just don't get that... Shadowrun's backstory is what makes it different than anything else out there, the mechanics are nothing too special at least... JH has to realize that Shadowrun is a niche game in a niche market. The people who play, or at least the people who are willing to take the time to form groups and GM the game are going to be fans of the setting and appreciate the idea that the supplements that come out for it are at least logical when compared to the great heaps of books we probably all already have. Why release old supplements on PDF if the ideas contained within them aren't going to be carried forward.
Back in August after the court case against CGL was dismissed and the licence was extended I told myself I would give them a year to get their things in order. It just seems depressing that if anything they are moving the the exact opposite direction that I would want to see them going.
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i have been following the game since late sr2, but i know nothing about the urbal brawl rules. As such, any such rules in a upcoming book could be made from writer farts and i would not know. I have already been turned away from the cp20xx community thanks to its insitence on the holiness of 2020 style, please do not make me do so with sr as well.
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Just to note, before anyone gets to up in arms about "Tranqs" link... The comments made there are baseless speculation, and completely wrong.
Bull
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i have been following the game since late sr2, but i know nothing about the urbal brawl rules. As such, any such rules in a upcoming book could be made from writer farts and i would not know. I have already been turned away from the cp20xx community thanks to its insitence on the holiness of 2020 style, please do not make me do so with sr as well.
I have no problem with things changing, as long as there is a reason for it. Tons of things have changed in Shadowrun over the past 20 years (both in game and IRL) and 99% of them I have welcomed. It's when something changes with no regard for what happened before that it concerns me. Right now I'm sitting by myself on ENworld trying to explain to them that "No, the Auschwitz entry in War is not suggesting that the PC's go and re-kill a bunch of holocaust survivors. That's not how spirits in Shadowrun work." It isn't easy when they can point to the text and say "Sure looks like spirits of the dead to me!" all because the author of that section couldn't be bothered to develop an understanding of how a fundamental aspect of the Shadowrun setting works.
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Right now I'm sitting by myself on ENworld trying to explain to them that "No, the Auschwitz entry in War is not suggesting that the PC's go and re-kill a bunch of holocaust survivors. That's not how spirits in Shadowrun work." It isn't easy when they can point to the text and say "Sure looks like spirits of the dead to me!" all because the author of that section couldn't be bothered to develop an understanding of how a fundamental aspect of the Shadowrun setting works.
You'll want to point the finger for that at the writers of Shadows of Europe, not War!, in this instance. While the section in War! added the potential for profit (via minor artifacts) into the equation, hordes of undead taking out their frustration on the living, all in the shadow of Auschwitz, came from page 229 in Shadows of Europe.
I've got no issue with anyone who finds the whole thing distasteful -- I do, and I like my Shadowrun plenty gritty -- but to complain about whether or not that section of War! clashes with established canon, you need to look at the established canon about Auschwitz and Oswiecim, going back six years to SoE.
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At the same time, I think the more panicked folks do have a point that it might have been more tastefully left out.
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Tying into the past is okay. Being irrevocably hog-tied to it without the ability to change a single thing is very not so cool, for my two cents. What's most important for me is internal consistency. Realism in a game is an odd concept. Do the changes fit within the general guidelines that the previous material has established? Does it push the envelope without making it unrecognizable from the previous material? Is it internally sound material, without contradicting itself? If it contradicts previous source material, is it done with an eye to explaining the differences and keeping those changes from being confusing?
So long as those sorts of questions are asked, I don't see any real problem with change. It's necessary for the game to move forward, and the direction it will move forward is going to change under different folks. I didn't like some of the initial changes made under Rob Boyle, but came to appreciate where things were headed with SR4. I'm fine with change, so long as it hangs together and remains internally consistent. Changing something "just for the rule of Cool!" isn't always the best idea, if the consequences of said change aren't at least glanced at. The rule of cool has always just seemed like an excuse to me. I'll really be looking forward to Attitude, providing the editing/proofing issues of WAR! have been addressed. (I seemed to recall reading in one of the multi-page threads here on Dumpshock, those issues had been looked at.) It was a little disconcerting to see recent BT material not suffer from the same editing drop-off that recent SR material seemed to have. So if those things are addressed, I'll be glad to look at more material to see if I like the direction SR is headed in now.
WAR! wasn't something that really rang my bell, but to be fair, neither was fields of fire. Or the military gear in Arsenal. I don't really have much interest in the military side of things in SR. I'm here for the criminal/media aspect of the game, and get my military fix in other games. I still purchased it and read it, as I like reading new SR material (just a bit more difficult reading for me, because editing problems is a personal pet peeve). Attitude is definitely subject matter that interests me in SR, though. Here's hoping it's a good read!
Edit: Please don't have Attitude start off lacking an introduction. That was an unwelcome surprise in WAR.
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Critas is right. Oświęcim in SoE was described as a hell-on-earth for ghosts of both victims and tormentors alike. They were awakened in 2011, forcing everyone out of the city. Sylvestrines raised the 'spirit barrier'.
As I see it, yes, those are Ghosts - echoes, or shreds of human souls. And they're unique, as no other SR material mentioned them as directly, as SoE. So, it's canon.
But still wrong to kill them, for any reason.
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I look at it this way:
I agree it is wrong to kill ghosts and (most) of my PCs feel the same way, especially with ghosts such as those found in Auschwitz. Diplomacy and investigation with paranormal entities always are the first tools in my toolbox.
But, if I find myself in a situation where it comes down to killing them or joining them, I'm glad there's information on how to take them out.
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There are also ghosts in On The Run. Like, actually-stated-to-be-the-spirits-of-the-dead ghosts.
Ignoring the concentration camp angle, why is it wrong to kill ghosts, in general?
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At the same time, I think the more panicked folks do have a point that it might have been more tastefully left out.
While I personally never plan to use the material presented on Auschwitz, as has been pointed out elsewhere, when the publisher starts self-censoring what topics they do and don't address.
Speaking as someone who's great-grandmother was born and raised on a reservation, Shadowrun's treatment of American Indians walks the same line of "questionable content". Heck, it is a little uncomfortable of a read for me. But, it's a dark and gritty game, if it doesn't make you a little uncomfortable, something is sincerely wrong.
In terms of recreating dark events from our very real past, how about the Japanese occupation of the Koreas and the Philippines? Anyone at FASA consider how pissed these ethnic groups might be to be told their playing a game where that history repeats itself?
Do either of these rise to the same level as the Auschwitz article? Probably not, since your not using the "ghosts" of real people as campaign fodder. A particularly despicable GM could do a little research and give historically accurate names to the ghosts based on prison records. I'm glad I'll never meet that guy. But, the difference is in degree, not type. Censor one, you necessarily set the stage to censor the other.
It's worth noting that, while the author of this particular article didn't completely step away from the "ghosts of victims" bit, he did try to steer it towards ghosts of the villagers and other dark spirits attracted to the site.
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Ignoring the concentration camp angle, why is it wrong to kill ghosts, in general?
Probably a variant of the "soul" issue i have seen showing up related to brain backups in transhumanism circles.
Hell, if ghosts are a spirit of man variant, is it not equally bad to kill one of them? Or any spirit, summoned or free?
Iirc, the catholic church in SR have a proscription against catholic mages making use of spirits because of the troubling issues regarding souls. Not that far fetched given that the real life catholic church has a ban on all things contraceptive, as it interferes with the introduction of souls to earth (or something like that)...
Once one start to go beyond the "self" as a emergent phenomena of electrochemical processes in nervous system, all manner of topics become a big issue...
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Ignoring the concentration camp angle, why is it wrong to kill ghosts, in general?
It's wrong to kill the ghosts from Auschwitz, for obvious reasons*. If you find a murderous, or malicious ghost, go for it, if you can't banish or cure him. Its just that ghosts should be treated like humans, since they were human once...
*I'm not delving into that matter.
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You'll want to point the finger for that at the writers of Shadows of Europe, not War!, in this instance. While the section in War! added the potential for profit (via minor artifacts) into the equation, hordes of undead taking out their frustration on the living, all in the shadow of Auschwitz, came from page 229 in Shadows of Europe.
I've got no issue with anyone who finds the whole thing distasteful -- I do, and I like my Shadowrun plenty gritty -- but to complain about whether or not that section of War! clashes with established canon, you need to look at the established canon about Auschwitz and Oswiecim, going back six years to SoE.
I have read that defense for the section in question for the second or maybe third time and I'm still not sure if you're serious or not.
You are of course correct that in SoE we can find the canonic source for these ghosts and already back then the problem was that their description didn't quite fit with the overall mechanics for spirits within the SR rules. At least we also got a solution in form of the Sylvestrines locking the place up once more with their spirit barrier.
And now let's look (again) where this was taken with the new section in WAR!:
- The spirit barrier - the very thing that contained those ghosts within the area instead of letting them roam free - is forcefully destroyed although treasure hunters (see also next point) or other non-spirits were never unable to enter the region ... Bad research on game mechanics?
- Since the treasure hunt adventure hook (including the part about "ghost-busting") is about everything we get as to why (but not how) the barrier was destroyed, the author leaves us on the one hand with once again free roaming spirits and all the ramifications connected to that and on the other hand more or less forces us to make up an even larger story about what happened to the Sylvestrines and the true reasons for the barrier's destruction. The latter I personally find extremely unattractive for a gaming supplement ... even without the additional weight that the Holocaust-theme imposes.
- What you call "minor artifacts" are in terms of the SR rules not just ordinary foci but even unique enchantments. And in that they are not at the bottom of magical extravganza (where "minor" things could be expected) but at the top ... and they are given a prize tag that's laughable
- And while we're at it, these "minor artifacts" come with two very new properties that don't fit with the rest of the magic rules, not even with the very open rules on unique enchantments:
- They came into existance neither through the use of the enchanting skill, nor other distinct magical occurrances ... and even stem from a time where usable magic still hadn't returned to the world. While the tides of mana sure allow for (permanently) imprinting the region with a background count even in times of an ebb, there's just no precedence for items like that. I even tried the Alchera approach of magical constructs gaining a physical representation, but that would again call for dual nature and it sure as hell would come off as another (very tasteless) nazi-zombie-horror if I even remotely suggested that the events at Auschwitz are linked to rituals and magical happenings that resulted in such items being created ("possibly" even at the will of the nazi scientists? ~puke~)
- The mentioned scalpel has positive properties similar to a weapon focus (DV increase) without any negative ones (like the dual nature), which makes it (as a template for similar items) superior to even previously described unique enchantments like that sword in Digital Grimoire.
- Apart from all that it's very obvious that the background research on Auschwitz wasn't done too well either, since one would not expect to see such a magical scalpel from someone who is known for delegating all the cruelties. And no the "it's magic" approach just doesn't chime there.
So my honest questions to you: Are you really willing to blame all that on SoE's introduction of terrorizing ghosts in that area? Are you really saying that the new section only added a potential for profit (via minor artifacts)?
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First, Let me admit my own culpability for continuing to engage discussions regarding War! that are in a thread that is about suggestions for Attitude.
Second, I don't speak for the moderators, obviously; however, let's get back on topic or let the thread die. Want to discuss the "Work Makes Freedom" article of War? start a thread dedicated to it.
I'm asking all sides here for a little reasonability, and I know all sides are guilty, can we stop hijacking threads to rant and rave about War?
EDIT
I know Critias has already posted while I was creating it, but here ya go, everyone, a place to continue arguments on Work Makes Freedom (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2079.0).
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Chaemara, I'm going to ignore your absolutely reasonable plea for sanity, simply to clarify something (since time and again over the last week or so, I feel I've been misunderstood, purposefully or not).
I'm not defending the piece as a whole. The post of mine you quoted, Cochise, was in response to a very specific complaint about the Auschwitz section "not being how spirits work" and a claim that the writer didn't "develop an understanding" of what ghosts are or aren't, in SR canon. I was just pointing out that SoE had established that ghosts -- or, at the very least, those ghosts -- worked the way the War! writer had them.
Whether you like it or not (and I've repeatedly said that I don't, but people keep ignoring that for some reason) the ghosts there don't break canon. If you don't like angry ghosts rampaging around the Polish countryside, take it up with whoever wrote SoE, is all I'm saying.
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So, I guess I need an update on the Shadowrun Ghost situtation. My understanding of shadowrun ghosts comes from Running Wild, page 178:
"For rules purposes, ghosts are considered wild spirits," "that have become imprinted by the dead." They are not lost souls, or spirits of the dead of any sort.
I get it, everyone (including me) finds the idea of destroying spirits near Auschwitz distasteful. What I want to know, is there new information since Running Wild that states that ghosts really are spirits of dead meta-humans?
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My suggestion for Attitude? Don't put anything about ghosts in there. ;D
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So, I guess I need an update on the Shadowrun Ghost situtation. My understanding of shadowrun ghosts comes from Running Wild, page 178:
"For rules purposes, ghosts are considered wild spirits," "that have become imprinted by the dead." They are not lost souls, or spirits of the dead of any sort.
Even Running Wild doesn't state that they ARE wild spirits, it only says to treat them that way for rules purposes (right before it tells the GM to tweak how much they want ghosts to really act and feel like dead people, or not, to suit their individual game).
It says "most magicians concluded that," and is as vague as the in-character section, never stating with clarity what they are. There's an awful lot of quotation marks in that section, discussing things like souls, memories, etc, just like back in the IC fluff about ghosts. To me, that implies that the writers intended to leave that decision up to individual GMs, while suggesting they use the core rules for wild spirits, for simplicity's sake.
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My suggestion for Attitude? Don't put anything about ghosts in there. ;D
Crap. I was going to have the Ghosts of Bruce Lee, Muhammed Ali, and Elvis all operating as ghostly Shadowrun team.
*sigh*
Guess I'll scrap that then.
;)
(However, I may need to write a Mission about this now :))
Bull
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My suggestion for Attitude? Don't put anything about ghosts in there. ;D
Crap. I was going to have the Ghosts of Bruce Lee, Muhammed Ali, and Elvis all operating as ghostly Shadowrun team.
*sigh*
Guess I'll scrap that then.
;)
(However, I may need to write a Mission about this now :))
Bull
Could make a comment about Charlie's Angels, but I won't. ;)
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My suggestion for Attitude? Don't put anything about ghosts in there. ;D
Crap. I was going to have the Ghosts of Bruce Lee, Muhammed Ali, and Elvis all operating as ghostly Shadowrun team.
*sigh*
Guess I'll scrap that then.
;)
(However, I may need to write a Mission about this now :))
Bull
Could make a comment about Charlie's Angels, but I won't. ;)
How about adding one more and go A-team?
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Given that writers are required to read almost nothing about Shadowrun itself by now (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2047.0), I don't think they're gonna read anything on RL related issues.
Fuck. I wasted all that time reading every SR book (including the ebooks).
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Guys, the ghost talk has moved elsewhere, keepit on rack and about Attitude here
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Fair enough.
What I've read of Attitude is awesome. There is a lot of material to cover, but I think it's a good mix.
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There will be no going forward if one continually stare into the rear-view mirror.
I just hope Attitude gives us a view of the average joe life in SR, as right now everything is from a runners POV. This then slants a whole lot of issues, like why is wireless everywhere when it gets in the way of doing runner business.
Seeing how joe benefits from this, and similar, may help cut back on some background noise.
I thought we got a decent look at how a wage slave lives in the Corp Guide and Vice provided plenty of insight on the life of the gutterpunk/outlaw/mobster. War! really could have gone more into the life of a warrior-for-hire, but War!, War! never changes.
With all the espionage stuff handled by the Spy book, Attitude has little left to cover except the high life of celebrity and the weirdness of L.A.
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With all the espionage stuff handled by the Spy book, Attitude has little left to cover except the high life of celebrity and the weirdness of L.A.
Bwahahahaha!
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Yeah... I didn't realize what SpyGames was when I, well... yeah. Now I know, and knowing is half the disappointment.
But, it could conceivably cover more than just the Denver ridiculousness with Ghostwanker.
That doesn't mean that it couldn't still cover all the cloak and dagger lifestyle stuff. That's still possible..
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If you don't like angry ghosts rampaging around the Polish countryside, take it up with whoever wrote SoE, is all I'm saying.
Who DID write that part of SoE?
-k
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Oh there is plenty of non-Denver stuff in SG. My post was that the stuff in Attitude s pretty broad--more than your post suggests.
The credit for the Poland chapter lists Maciej Kowalski and Joao Nunes. Peter Taylor ran the whole project since it began as a fan project in 2000 so he deserves some credit/blame. IIRC he was a micromanaging ballbuster before I had to ditch and it became an official project. And ghosts are not just in Auschwitz. The GM section describe Poland as heavily riddled with ghost haunts on page 229. But they made the ghosts of Auschwitz hostile to people in SoE. VERY hostile. So it's not like David channeled the ghost (so to speak) of any anti-semites like has been suggested. He *gasp* simply adhered to canon. And given the choice of live people vs. malevolent spirits who are at best shades of Shoah victims, I am siding with the living every time.
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Oh there is plenty of non-Denver stuff in SG. My post was that the stuff in Attitude s pretty broad--more than your post suggests.
Ah, cool. That's encouraging to hear. I remember talk that it was mostly an L.A. sourcebook with stuff about the lifestyle of the area included. I'll be happy to see more stuff about life in the 6th world. One of the most challenging things I find when dealing with new players is helping them get a grip on just how different life can be, not just in the shadows, but in general.
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That doesn't mean that it couldn't still cover all the cloak and dagger lifestyle stuff. That's still possible..
It's more than possible, trust me.