[Sentinemodo]

Hello, rule gurus

I got a discussion with my players, but even though they are wiser then me I still have my doubts.

1. is it possible for a mage in Astral to go through solid nonliving objects like walls (I'd say yes)

2. is it possible for a mage in Astral to go through other auras or living objects like metahuman (I'd say yes, but I have doubts)
- for the above I imagine myself an Astral as the ghosts world, and ghosts can go through walls, people no problem

3. key question - is it possible to perceive through the solid non-living objects like walls (mind you if an astral travelling mage could do so, so would be able an astral perceiving mage). (I'd say yes, even if this could be considered as a game breaker)
- for the above the solid oejcts (except earth) are described as opaque, like glass, and I can move through them, they are insubstantial, a minor obstruction, like a cloud of dust.
- on the other side auras vibrant in life and collors do obstruct vision.
- similar mana barriers, designed to obstruct movement are also designed to obscure  vision (albeit the owner can easily see through)
- i'd assume, that visibility in astral is dependant on the amount of ambient life surrounding the mage. on a desert or in high atmosphere, the visibility could easily go hundreds of miles, in city you cant see the other side of the street due to marching people, but if you move up a little, you can see over their head for a good hundreds of meters (let say standard daylight vision), in jungle you'll be virtually in the fog. (that's cool idea for a scenario by the way)
- the nonliving walls would obstruct the vision like layers of glass, can be distorting for good aiming purposes, but whats important they would not block the Line of Sight.

Now if the above would be correct, then it could be a game breaker - you walk the city and see what people are doing in their houses. But wait, they could have plants in their homes, they could have aquariums with fishes, heck even the bacteria in hydro-pipes gobstruct the vision a little. If you go among villas, the gardens and fences or wine leave at the walls obstruct astral vision. Is it that much better then infraread google in night or xray vision googles. Even Matrix has this kind of vision, just search for the nodes (like commlinks) triangulate them and you have the same capability just different aspect.

Now there is a spell like detect life that could do the same, but this is different, detect life will find someone hiding behind the auras and leaves (even if they couldn't be seen by astral perception), moreover depending on the number of hits, the spell yields more information the simple perception.

what are your thoughts? any rulebooks references on this?

[FastJack]

1)

The insubstantial nature of shadows means that astral forms cannot interact with them; they simply pass through them as if they were not there. While this makes travel in the astral plane easy (as astrally-projecting magicians can walk right through buildings), even the simplest physical task such as flipping through a book is impossible on the astral.

2)

Auras are insubstantial and therefore offer no resistance to an astral form attempting to pass through them. The living being that corresponds to the aura, however, may sense when something or someone has passed through his aura.

3)

Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.

[Bewilderbeast]

- for the above the solid oejcts (except earth) are described as opaque, like glass, and I can move through them, they are insubstantial, a minor obstruction, like a cloud of dust.

This might be your problem, I think. Opaque does not mean "like glass." Opaque is the opposite of transparent. It means light doesn't pass through it, and that you cannot see through it.

[Dahrken]

In fact even the astral shadow of (physically transparent) glass is astrally opaque, blocking astral LOS !

[Tagz]

You got numbers 1 and 2 right, but not 3.

Physical objects that are not active on the astral offer no resistance to astral beings.  They can move right through them.  Keep in mind though that if you move through living things they get a chance to percieve that there is something there ( SR4A p 193 Astral Detection.  It's a Perception + Intuition (4) test.)

No, you can not see through walls.  Anything that blocks LOS blocks perception on the astral.  Almost all physical objects, living or not, block astral LOS.

Your fairly right about the lack of life (or mana) helping to improve one's vision in the astral, the glow from mana and auras obfuscating vision after a distance.  And even if you could see forever, with distance you lose detail.  It's not like you can see the flames on stars in the night sky, you only see a speck of light from far away.

The thing that really makes things easy or harder to see in the astral is contrast.  A lone aura in a deserted warehouse, a shadow of a drone moving through a lush jungle, a room with a few people and one person has an astral form, those sort of things.

For your reference you can look at an Astral Visibility Table located on Street Magic p114, where you can find lots more info on the nature of the astral.

[Sentinemodo]

This might be your problem, I think. Opaque does not mean "like glass." Opaque is the opposite of transparent. It means light doesn't pass through it, and that you cannot see through it.

Might be

[Sentinemodo]

Thanks everyone

FastJack Chapeaux bas! you really know the books by heart