[Reaver]

Its not a new problem either

Bioware tackled this, and other DnD related tropes in their game Baldur's Gate..

There was 'the fastest dart thrower in the world' and the 'monster adventurer's party' (all the base classes filled by monster races). And lets not forget 'Neverwinter's Stupidest wizard'......

Or Deekin, the half-dragon, half kobald BARD!!! (who actually becomes bad-ass!!) From Neverwinter Nights...

And that's not even touching the original Emo Elf Ranger....

[Lorebane24]

One of my buddies once made a half-orc wizard named Gromsh Flopspell.  He had an Int score of 11, and his spellbook was a cocktail napkin with "magic missile" written on one side and "ray of frost" written on the other.

[ScytheKnight]

Well in terms of my table for anything really exotic I have one simple ruling.

Come to me with some details of how you're going to play the character, both RP wise, and how you're going to deal with any necessities and drawbacks/weakness of the character.

Someone in my game wants to play a Vampire? OK they need to tell me how they're going to go about feeding (both blood dietary requirement and Essence), how they're going to deal with not being able to eat or drink in social situation and how they're going to deal with taking damage from sunlight if they need to do a daytime job. Show me you have a solid grasp of how to actually play a vampire, and I'll be willing to at least consider it.

[Shadowjack]

You need to put your foot down and lay out some rules that must be followed. No phones or other distracting electronics at the table, no chummer (use real character sheets), use physical dice. Tell them if they don't pay attention they are not allowed to play again and even kick them mid session. There is no sense in forcing yourself through a bad GM experience because the players are disrespectful. Make them read the books too. Go back to basics, no oddball characters and everything must be within the normal rules. You can always find more players and the game runs pretty well with just 2 or 3 players so you mgiht want to cut out the weak links.

Bottom line: You are investing your valuable time to provide an enjoyable experience both for the players and yourself. If the players are taking that away from you, something needs to change immediately. You need to be assertive and let them know that their spot in the group is on the line if they don't follow the rules. That is completely reasonable.

[All4BigGuns]

...no chummer (use real character sheets), use physical dice.

There is absolutely zero valid reason to disallow use of Chummer, HeroLab or dice apps. Disallowing Facebook and whatnot is one thing, but going that far is just ridiculous.

[Lorebane24]

You need to put your foot down and lay out some rules that must be followed. No phones or other distracting electronics at the table, no chummer (use real character sheets), use physical dice. Tell them if they don't pay attention they are not allowed to play again and even kick them mid session. There is no sense in forcing yourself through a bad GM experience because the players are disrespectful. Make them read the books too. Go back to basics, no oddball characters and everything must be within the normal rules. You can always find more players and the game runs pretty well with just 2 or 3 players so you mgiht want to cut out the weak links.

Bottom line: You are investing your valuable time to provide an enjoyable experience both for the players and yourself. If the players are taking that away from you, something needs to change immediately. You need to be assertive and let them know that their spot in the group is on the line if they don't follow the rules. That is completely reasonable.

This seems a tad extreme to me.  I think, ultimately, you need to ask yourself two questions.

1) Are the players having fun?
2) Am I having fun?

If the answers to both questions is not "yes," then something should change, but having fun isn't the same as having your way every time, for players or for GMs.

[Reaver]

I am going to say it...

Trying to get your players to "unplug" is just not going to happen. It's almost as if the internet and the devices that get it have been stapled to their hands!

This is an ongoing problem in schools - where schools that have taken phones away from students have actually been SUED!! And Employers that fire employees for inappropriate phone use have both Civil, Human Rights, and Labour Relations charges filed against them. (Our company has had 18 in the 3 years! All from 20-somethings that can't put down their phones for 5 seconds. No, they don't win. But, its expensive to defend yourself against theses types of charges).

You can try, and I wish you well, but if People can't unplug for a $125k to $300k a year job, chances are they are not going to unplug for some unpaid "fun"


(And it is not that I don't feel your pain. This type of thing drives me nuts as well.)

[Sterling]

...no chummer (use real character sheets), use physical dice.

There is absolutely zero valid reason to disallow use of Chummer, HeroLab or dice apps. Disallowing Facebook and whatnot is one thing, but going that far is just ridiculous.

I can give you one reason to disallow Chummer: it stops people who don't have the actual books from putting together characters without knowing the rules behind them.  At least with HeroLab people have to pay for the additional sourcebooks, so it's more likely they have the actual books as well.

Dice Apps I agree with you 100% - As much fun as it is to throw handfuls of dice at home, it's a pain in the ass to try and locate a rogue die when you play Missions away form home.  A decent dice app speeds up the game which makes it better for everyone.

[All4BigGuns]

I can give you one reason to disallow Chummer: it stops people who don't have the actual books from putting together characters without knowing the rules behind them.  At least with HeroLab people have to pay for the additional sourcebooks, so it's more likely they have the actual books as well.

The problem here is that if you disallow Chummer, it's likely the player will insist that HeroLab (which contains all of the rules information for everything) as well, considering that to be fair (which it isn't at all fair since Chummer is free and HeroLab isn't).

[Sterling]

I can give you one reason to disallow Chummer: it stops people who don't have the actual books from putting together characters without knowing the rules behind them.  At least with HeroLab people have to pay for the additional sourcebooks, so it's more likely they have the actual books as well.

The problem here is that if you disallow Chummer, it's likely the player will insist that HeroLab (which contains all of the rules information for everything) as well, considering that to be fair (which it isn't at all fair since Chummer is free and HeroLab isn't).

If I'm blunt I think that Chummer is actually detrimental to Shadowrun and CGL.  If you can create a character using all published rules without buying the books in the first place there's little incentive these days to do so.  At least HeroLab is legitimately licenced by CGL.

If a player started complaining that Chummer was being disallowed but HeroLab wasn't, that player needs to find another game.  As GM that would be the least of the rules I may enforce, and I'm not willing to set a precedence that rewards whining.

[MijRai]

Yeah, in your opinion there's no reason to disallow Chummer/HeroLab and dice-roller apps, Guns.  That doesn't mean your opinion is correct, or that other perspectives don't have merit. 

One good point is that using character generator/builder apps gives people the option to not actually read the books and see how things are supposed to work.  I'm getting tired of it myself, since a ton of people in a chat game I'm in have been handed Chummer and told to go wild when they have no experience with the system or setting whatsoever.  You can guess how it goes. 

I've seen errors in these programs cause a ruckus too, which is annoying.  When someone with little experience with Shadowrun running a game says 'the program says you can't do it' instead of actually looking in the book, that's a problem. 

Hand-jamming your characters actually makes you go through the book, which also means you pick up on other things along the way. 

Another good point is that I've totally seen people mess with those apps and cheat (changing settings to give them more favorable things, putting in wrong numbers, actually messing with the code, etc.).  I'm getting tired of that shit too. 

Dice roller apps have the same kind of problem; I've caught players fudging the shit out of their little apps or rerolling things on the sly until they get their favored roll, which is harder to do when they roll a handful of dice in front of everyone and we can count the 1s before they can do some hand-shielding bull-shit. 

All in all, there's plenty of valid reasons to ban any and all character creation or dice-rolling applications or programs at your table.  I'm not saying it is right or wrong, though I personally do it. 

As far as players glued to their screens go (there is a difference between the occasional tech-check and being glued to the screen), you can totally tell them to put their shit down and listen.  If they don't, they reap the consequences of their actions.  If you don't want to kick them out, don't.  But don't tell them what they missed either.  Obviously their character was licking windows, playing Shadowrun's version of a mobile game, on the phone with someone else or something while everyone else was doing what they should have, and they missed their opportunity.  Throw surprise on them in Initiative, have them give offense to people who expect attention to be paid to them, etc.  Rub their nose in what they're doing wrong until they either get it right or get out.  It's the only way to do it if they won't be talked out of it and you don't want to just kick them out. 

[adzling]

nice post mijraj.

I fking hate cheaters.

thankfully I only play irl so it's a bit different than some group of randos on the internet.

We use Herolab exclusively (NO chummer, it's just too borked and open to abuse) and we use dice rollers (try rolling 30 odd dice and counting them...).

Totally agree as well about how to handle tech distracted players, good way to get them to pay attention ;-)

[Leevizer]

What Mijrai said about characters.

I had one player who had bought a cyberear augmentation. When I asked him why he bought it, the answer is "I dunno. My character is addicted to augmentations and this was cheap" which was just... So yes, Chummer and character creation tools are bad, as they allow you to skip things such as, you know, the rules of the game and your gear.