Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jyster on <05-05-13/0845:30>
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If I'm firing 2 warhawks, single shot, and I fire in the same action phase. Are both the shots at no recoil penalties, or is the second shot at a -1?
The problem arises, when firing from 2 different weapons in the same action. All it talks about is when firing a SA weapon.
The first shot is free, so my group thinks that because its a second weapon and firing SS that the first shot for the second weapon should be free. The rules do not clarify this problem, but the rules suggest that the second shot should be 0 penalty.
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Recoil is cumulative for multiple weapons. The shot from the first gun is at no penalty, the shot from the second is at -1(recoil from the first shot). It'd be incredibly easy to get recoil comp for 1 little point, obviously.
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Baron Cow appears to be correct.
SR4A 150 (emphasis mine):
ATTACKER USING A SECOND FIREARM
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, re- quires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the small- est dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun at- tacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Joe, that's if you are firing both as a single simple action, but yes, mtfeeny is correct.
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Ah, misinterpreted the OP.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Unfortunately, nowhere does it say the first shot from your second weapon is uncompensated in he same action phase.
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Put a personalised grip on both for 100 nuyen each and your recoil problem is solved.
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Baron Cow appears to be correct.
SR4A 150 (emphasis mine):
ATTACKER USING A SECOND FIREARM
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, re- quires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the small- est dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun at- tacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.
I thought that rule meant that if you fire a Long Burst with two SMGs at the same time, and one has RC 4 while the other has RC 3, the uncompensated recoil modifiers (-1 and -2) get added to both weapons, giving recoil -3 on both weapons, done after the splitting of the dice pool. I don't read that rule as saying "you get 1 extra recoil on the 'second' weapon you fire at the same time".
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Huh, actually, after rereading:
RAW, SS weapons can't get recoil.
It is ambiguous whether
Semi-automatic mode
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier
means "the first shot from this gun" or the first shot of the action phase, regardless of which gun it comes from.
I think it is actually the first. So if you dual-wield BF weapons, both first shots are -2 recoil and both second shots are -3 recoil.
The rule JN quoted says that uncompensated recoil applies to everything. So if you have 2 RC per gun, and you dual-wield firing BF/BF, then BF/BF, the first pair of shots are at no RC penalty (2-2=0 on both), and the second pair are at -6 each (5-2=3, each applies the penalty to both weapons).
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Huh, actually, after rereading:
RAW, SS weapons can't get recoil.
It is ambiguous whether
Semi-automatic mode
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier
means "the first shot from this gun" or the first shot of the action phase, regardless of which gun it comes from.
I think it is actually the first. So if you dual-wield BF weapons, both first shots are -2 recoil and both second shots are -3 recoil.
The rule JN quoted says that uncompensated recoil applies to everything. So if you have 2 RC per gun, and you dual-wield firing BF/BF, then BF/BF, the first pair of shots are at no RC penalty (2-2=0 on both), and the second pair are at -6 each (5-2=3, each applies the penalty to both weapons).
I think you may be on to something, but I don't agree with your example. It definitely says uncompensated recoil from one gun is applied to the other. In your example, the first gun fires a short burst. This normally causes -2 recoil, but you have 2 RC. That's 0 recoil passed to the second gun. It fires, racking up -2 recoil, but it compensates for this. Then the first gun fires again, this time going up to -5 recoil. The 2 RC drops it to -3, and this is uncompensated recoil. The second gun fires, earning -5 for itself PLUS -3 uncompensated from the other gun. So that's -8 reduced by 2 RC to -6 total. The 4 shots are at -0/-0/-3/-6.
I don't see how this says dual SS guns don't have to deal with recoil. If the first gun doesn't have any RC, that -1 recoil is uncompensated and is passed to the second.
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Under those interpretations, you're really starting to make little sense with the recoil rules. So you're saying compensated Recoil won't matter, while uncompensated recoil will? But if I fire a revolver, that first shot is compensated due to it giving no recoil. Also, it makes little sense that firing two identical weapons at the same time would cause 1 of them to have heavier recoil.
"Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon." To me this sounds like "you're firing without full recoil compensation with one hand, and the toughness to keep that gun under control also affects the accuracy with your other gun, and vice versa." But each weapon still has its own recoil compensation that determines how easy it is to control the weapon. Only when your accuracy starts suffering do both attacks begin to suffer. So fire 2 SA guns without RC once at the same time, no problem. Fire them again and the kick makes it harder to aim right, especially with a double kick. So the -1+-1 on each attack means you now lose two dice on each attack.
Here's another important detail on Recoil:
SR4a p152: Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a -1 dice pool modifer for the second shot only. Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer -9 recoil.
Note that the generic rule here is that recoil is per weapon. The specific dual-wielding rule then says that uncompensated recoil from each weapon fired simultaneous applies to all weapons being fired in the same Simple Action. But until you get uncompensated recoil, there's no problem, and this only applies when firing multiple guns in the same Simple action. When you start getting uncompensated recoil, here's what happens:
Say I got 2 SMGs with 4 RC each (the max for surpressed HK-227Xs). I got a Dicepool of 8 Agility + 6 Automatics and a specialty in SMGs. I split my 14 dicepool 6/8, subtract the off-hand penalty for 6/6, then add the specialty to each for 8/8. I fire a short burst with each, which at 2 Recoil and 4 RC is fully compensated.
Then I fire both again, once more with short bursts. Splitting would end me at 8/8 before recoil. Now I got 1 uncompensated recoil on each SMG, which combines to 1+1 and 1+1, so 8-2/8-2 ends me at 6 dice for each shot.
Now say I got Shiva Arms and 4 SMGs. Splitting would go 2/4/4/4, meaning I end up with 4/4/4/4 after specialty and off-hand penalties enter the game. The first burst with each goes fine. But then I fire again. I end up with 1 uncompensated recoil per gun, which stacks up to four times that! Now I got 4 Recoil Penalty on each attack, meaning I'm left with exactly 0 dice for each of the four attacks... If I want even a chance of hitting, I'll have to add my Edge to the pre-splitting dicepool for, at an Edge of 4, 1 dice per attack... Or I play it smart and only fire 2 of them in the second Simple Action, landing me at that 6/6 mentioned before.
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That also brings me back to OP's question: Since you are firing 1 SS weapon in your first Simple Action, then another in your second Simple Action, you do not suffer from recoil since each weapon only has 1 round leaving it in that one Action Phase. And similarly, if you have poorly-compensated SMGs, you can fire one with your one hand, then fire the second with your other hand and avoid the recoil.
Of course you suffer an off-hand penalty unless Ambidextrous, and you don't have a spare hand available to reload so would need to drop one weapon before you can reload the other. Not to mention being detected faster due to carrying more weapons on you and being remembered faster by people.
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Also, it makes little sense that firing two identical weapons at the same time would cause 1 of them to have heavier recoil.
I don't agree. It's not about recoil shoving your gun off track, but the other one staying true. The bullet fires, you take a penalty to trying to aim it straight. If you have an assault rifle bucking in your right hand, kicking madly... Do you think you can concentrate on firing a pistol in your other hand without penalty? An impossible situation, but it exaggerates the situation to demonstrate what I mean. The uncompensated recoil throws YOU off. It's a penalty to you hitting, not a penalty to the gun's accuracy.
"Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon." To me this sounds like "you're firing without full recoil compensation with one hand, and the toughness to keep that gun under control also affects the accuracy with your other gun, and vice versa." But each weapon still has its own recoil compensation that determines how easy it is to control the weapon. Only when your accuracy starts suffering do both attacks begin to suffer. So fire 2 SA guns without RC once at the same time, no problem. Fire them again and the kick makes it harder to aim right, especially with a double kick. So the -1+-1 on each attack means you now lose two dice on each attack.
Now it seems like we're saying the same thing. Maybe I picture this wrong, but you don't actually fire both guns at the exact same time. I've tried this in real life... one gun always goes off first. That's why the recoil from the "first" gun is less. You're less destabilized.
Here's another important detail on Recoil:
SR4a p152: Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a -1 dice pool modifer for the second shot only. Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer -9 recoil.
Note that the generic rule here is that recoil is per weapon. The specific dual-wielding rule then says that uncompensated recoil from each weapon fired simultaneous applies to all weapons being fired in the same Simple Action. But until you get uncompensated recoil, there's no problem, and this only applies when firing multiple guns in the same Simple action. When you start getting uncompensated recoil, here's what happens:
Say I got 2 SMGs with 4 RC each (the max for surpressed HK-227Xs). I got a Dicepool of 8 Agility + 6 Automatics and a specialty in SMGs. I split my 14 dicepool 6/8, subtract the off-hand penalty for 6/6, then add the specialty to each for 8/8. I fire a short burst with each, which at 2 Recoil and 4 RC is fully compensated.
Then I fire both again, once more with short bursts. Splitting would end me at 8/8 before recoil. Now I got 1 uncompensated recoil on each SMG, which combines to 1+1 and 1+1, so 8-2/8-2 ends me at 6 dice for each shot.
I'm with you up until the math at the end. I think it'd be one shot at 7 and one shot at 6.
That also brings me back to OP's question: Since you are firing 1 SS weapon in your first Simple Action, then another in your second Simple Action, you do not suffer from recoil since each weapon only has 1 round leaving it in that one Action Phase. And similarly, if you have poorly-compensated SMGs, you can fire one with your one hand, then fire the second with your other hand and avoid the recoil.
Of course you suffer an off-hand penalty unless Ambidextrous, and you don't have a spare hand available to reload so would need to drop one weapon before you can reload the other. Not to mention being detected faster due to carrying more weapons on you and being remembered faster by people.
Firing a bullet causes -1 recoil. SA or SS, it causes -1 recoil. SS can't normally fire twice in an action phase, so it isn't mentioned.... but it IS there. That -1(if uncompensated) would apply to the second gun.
Is the OP saying he fires one gun as a simple action, then fires the other? Or he's firing both guns in a simple action, then both again as another simple action?
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Actually, technically in Shadowrun you fire simultaneous with both weapons when dual-wielding. Which means you can't just go "oh, the first shot kills him? Second shot is at another guy then". Anyway:
Since he's firing Single-Shots, we're basically talking firing Ruger Warhawk Main Hand with Simple Action 1, then firing Ruger Warhawk Off-Hand with Simple Action 2. Which is basically the cheap way of packing a heavy punch while avoiding the Single-Shot limitation and without having to split your dicepool and lose smartgun benefits.
And like I said, the recoil rules mention that the recoil is per weapon. It doesn't say "if you fire more than one round in an Action Phase you suffer from an escalating recoil modifier", it says "weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase".
If the assault rifle in my right hand kicks madly, the pistol can't be fired without penalty no. That's exactly what the rules say: Uncompensated recoil applicable to one weapon also apply to the other. Note it doesn't say "applicable to the first gun you fire of the two, also apply to the second you fire of the two", it says "applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon". You fire them at the same time so if you get hit with uncompensated recoil by weapon A, that means you also get an extra penalty on weapon B. And if at the same time that pistol's kicking because it's my second shot with an uncompensated pistol, that kick on weapon B will also give me a penalty on weapon A. But if the SMG in one hand can handle 3 bullets just fine thanks to its gas-vent 2 during Simple Action 1, then the SMG in the other hand won't have a problem firing its own 3 bullets in Simple Action 2.
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What I'm talking about is dual wielding warhawks and splitting dice and firing the same simple action.
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In that case I'd note two things.
1: Given how recoil is per weapon as far as I can read it, I don't think you get hit by recoil.
2: Why not fire one per simple Action? You still only get 2 shots off in the same IP, and this way you don't split the dicepool and still get the +1/+2 from lasersight/smartgun.
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So, in summary, you're saying he can't do what he's trying to do, for starters. You can't fire a SS gun twice in an action phase, so the best you can do is fire each gun as a separate simple action. And since guns are fired simultaneously, the math would follow the previous example.
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Well you can dual-fire 2 Warhawks at the same time. It is, however, a big waste unless you really needed that second Simple Action for something else. And only their uncompensated recoil would double up. As singleshots they don't have recoil, so they don't share uncompensated recoil to begin with if I'm right on "recoil is per weapon".
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I think you may be on to something, but I don't agree with your example. It definitely says uncompensated recoil from one gun is applied to the other. In your example, the first gun fires a short burst. This normally causes -2 recoil, but you have 2 RC. That's 0 recoil passed to the second gun. It fires, racking up -2 recoil, but it compensates for this. Then the first gun fires again, this time going up to -5 recoil. The 2 RC drops it to -3, and this is uncompensated recoil. The second gun fires, earning -5 for itself PLUS -3 uncompensated from the other gun. So that's -8 reduced by 2 RC to -6 total. The 4 shots are at -0/-0/-3/-6.
Since you're firing both at the same time, it doesn't make sense for there to be a "second" gun with more recoil. When they say "any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon", this doesn't mean you pick one gun whose uncompensated recoil modifiers apply to the other gun - it happens both ways. So what actually happens is this:- First Burst:
- "Left" gun: -2 Recoil, 2 RC, no penalty.
- "Right" gun: -2 Recoil, 2 RC, no penalty.
- "Left" gun: 0 uncompensated Recoil + 0 uncompensated Recoil from "Right" gun, gives a -0 Recoil penalty.
- "Right" gun: 0 uncompensated Recoil + 0 uncompensated Recoil from "Left" gun, gives a -0 Recoil penalty.
- Second Burst:
- "Left" gun: -5 Recoil, 2 RC, 3 uncompensated Recoil.
- "Right" gun: -5 Recoil, 2 RC, 3 uncompensated Recoil.
- "Left" gun: 3 uncompensated Recoil + 3 uncompensated Recoil from "Right" gun, gives a -6 Recoil penalty.
- "Right" gun: 3 uncompensated Recoil + 3 uncompensated Recoil from "Left" gun, gives a -6 Recoil penalty.
Note that even if the "Left" gun were to have an RC of 6, both guns would still have the -3 penalty from the "Right" gun's uncompensated Recoil - the spare RC of the "Left" gun doesn't affect the uncompensated Recoil from the "Right" gun.
Now, in the case of firing 2 SS weapons at the same time, what you'd get is this:- "Left" gun: no Recoil, no penalty.
- "Right" gun: no Recoil, no penalty.
- "Left" gun: 0 uncompensated Recoil + 0 uncompensated Recoil from "Right" gun, gives a -0 Recoil penalty.
- "Right" gun: 0 uncompensated Recoil + 0 uncompensated Recoil from "Left" gun, gives a -0 Recoil penalty.
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That's what Michael said earlier, minus the error with Single Shot. They can only be fired once per action phase. You could fire 2 SS at once as a simple action, but that'd be a waste since you can't fire them as a second simple action. Better to fire each once, not splitting your pool. The essence of my mistake was that I don't believe in firing 2 guns at once, but that's just an interpretation error on my part.
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Yeah, it's a real shame to fire 2 Warhawks in the same Simple Action. Sure, no recoil, but you don't get recoil firing one, then the other, either.
Jyster, any questions?
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You can always get shiva arms and fire 2 warhawks 2 times in one IP ;P
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Yep. DW is simultaneous.
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Well, I was hoping to get an official response instead of people who might know of the rule.
I understand that you can fire each warhawk in a different simple action, but that's not the rule I'm asking about.
Plus, getting recoil comp on the weapons doesn't answer the question also.
So how do I get an official answer? Because thats what I need to give to the group for the answer.
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An official answer isn't obtainable. All you can do is quote the same part I quoted, which indicates Recoil is per weapon. A lot of the rules are like that: It's not literally legally spelled out but it's still fairly doable to get a good interpretation of the language used.
If you want to quote the exact rules, you got this:
SR4a p152: Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon.
That's the entire definition of recoil. Guns that fire multiple rounds per IP get recoil from their own bullets. Unless a rule specifically mentions something else, that's the way it goes. And dual-wielding says that uncompensated recoil is shared. Nothing said about compensated recoil (if any).
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the answer can be found on p. 150 SR4A under "attacker using a second firearm", as quoted by JoeNapalm earlier on this thread. simultaneously firing two warhawks will net you +0R. neither gun is generating recoil, therefore there is no recoil applicable.
edit: this explains firing two weapons in the same simple action.
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Like I said, there is no consensus on this rule so far.
So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
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Like I said, there is no consensus on this rule so far.
So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
i think this is because there was some confusion in the matter regarding wether you meant 1 simple action=2 shots, or 2 simple actions=1 shot each. ambiguous indeed.
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Their reasons I can't tell you, since I have no contact with their staff whatsoever. However, I should note that there's several controversies surrounding rules that they never gave an official statement on, and those are the big debates. In this case, however, we do appear to have reached consensus by pulling out the exact rule-statements. Note that Baron said that "the essence of my mistake was that I don't believe in firing 2 guns at once, but that's just an interpretation error on my part."
Also, keep in mind people can often misinterpret things. In the recent weeks, I've seen someone argue that Full Body Armor protects against magic when the rules state it doesn't, I've seen someone argue that Long Bursts do not use cumulative recoil but just their own recoil, I've seen a statement that "free" means no nuyen cost AND no essence cost. If on each of these occasions, even when the wording in the books seems very clear, they have to come out and clarify because people refuse to go with the most reasonable interpretation of what's written, then they wouldn't have any time left for development of SR5. If they came out every time there was a disagreement on RAW and RAI, it'd cost a LOT of time.
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He's asking for an answer from Catalyst. The answer is that they don't post here. The closest you'll get is a freelancer sometimes.
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So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
Because we don't need one. And this goes for just about all rules arguments. You have the language - the RAW, if you will. Take it as it is literally written (a SS action creates no recoil - which would mean ever), and if there is conflicting language (which there is not here) choose what is best for your table (in this case the alternate is - consider it as a second shot on the same weapon for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, and is only good for a table that has a GM with a thing against DW). It's not hard. There's no a mystery. You may think for yourself.
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You can learn german and ask Pegasus about an official rules statement, they do give them out and afaik what Pegasus says is as official as you get.
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afaik what Pegasus says is as official as you get.
Which means: Not at all.
The only thing that's official are errata, and we don't get those (at this point in the production pipeline, understandably).
What Pegasus' SR team says is just as much interpretation in terms of conflicting RAW as it is if a freelancer says it, if I say it, or just about everyone else in this or any other forum.
The fact of the matter is that most people, including the writers don't even go into that much thought about loopholes. Sure, Bloodzillas eventually get mentioned and fixed, but something as inconsequential as "How do I handle an obscure fringe case with guns that basically never occurs" won't ever be addressed, because common sense dictates: "Do it as your GM wills, after discussing it. If your interpretation isn't shared by the majority of your group, your interpretation is wrong for your group."
A question such as this won't make it into the errata, and not even an FAQ, simply because the question isn't asked frequently.
The funny thing is, this kind of service (an official rules crack team) isn't even needed. Most people I know don't even read the errata or are aware of different printings of the rulebooks.
Games Workshop offers (or offered, I don't know the current state of affairs) this kind of thing. You can even call a hotline and some dude will answer your question right then and there. The funny part: Try it. Then call again, see if you can get another dude on the line.
We tried it, we got three different answers from three different guys. All of the answers were official.
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So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
Because we don't need one. And this goes for just about all rules arguments. You have the language - the RAW, if you will. Take it as it is literally written (a SS action creates no recoil - which would mean ever), and if there is conflicting language (which there is not here) choose what is best for your table (in this case the alternate is - consider it as a second shot on the same weapon for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, and is only good for a table that has a GM with a thing against DW). It's not hard. There's no a mystery. You may think for yourself.
Wow, self important much, or are you trying to be a tool.
I came into the official rules section of the company that is making the game to get a rules clarification, I don't see why another poster being rude and self important about a rules question.that actually belongs in this forum.
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Look, we tried to help you. People even reached consensus, based directly on what's in RAW. That's all we can give you. I am unaware of any way for you to get more than this. If you are unsatisfied with that and only want official statements, then I ask of you to make sure to include that next time you have a question, since then I don't feel like I'm wasting my time digging through the rules trying to help you.
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So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
Because we don't need one. And this goes for just about all rules arguments. You have the language - the RAW, if you will. Take it as it is literally written (a SS action creates no recoil - which would mean ever), and if there is conflicting language (which there is not here) choose what is best for your table (in this case the alternate is - consider it as a second shot on the same weapon for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, and is only good for a table that has a GM with a thing against DW). It's not hard. There's no a mystery. You may think for yourself.
Wow, self important much, or are you trying to be a tool.
I came into the official rules section of the company that is making the game to get a rules clarification, I don't see why another poster being rude and self important about a rules question.that actually belongs in this forum.
You need to check yourself there Jyster. It looks like you're new, but that isn't an excuse for being offensive when someone is just trying to answer your question.
As a note, this forum may be hosted through the Shadowrun 4 website, but that doesn't mean that it is an "official rules section". This is a forum, and as a few others have already mentioned, the Catalyst staff does not frequently answer these threads. We have tried to answer your question in many ways, please be nice.
As a note: it looks like the majority answer is No, firing two single shot guns (one in each hand) during the same simple action does not suffer from any recoil.
People have noted that you need to worry about the drawbacks from firing two weapons at once (splitting your dice pool, no smartgun or laser sight bonus), but there is no recoil.
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how do you make a link to a previous post? one in particular: "ambidexterous?" great points on the +'s/-'s of dual-wielding.
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You see the Re: <Topic Title> above every post? Click that for the url to link to that exact post. Then just paste that url somewhere.
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More specifically, right-click it and choose "Copy Link Location", then paste it.
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http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=10493.msg189678#msg189678
;D
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So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
Because we don't need one. And this goes for just about all rules arguments. You have the language - the RAW, if you will. Take it as it is literally written (a SS action creates no recoil - which would mean ever), and if there is conflicting language (which there is not here) choose what is best for your table (in this case the alternate is - consider it as a second shot on the same weapon for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, and is only good for a table that has a GM with a thing against DW). It's not hard. There's no a mystery. You may think for yourself.
Wow, self important much, or are you trying to be a tool.
I came into the official rules section of the company that is making the game to get a rules clarification, I don't see why another poster being rude and self important about a rules question.that actually belongs in this forum.
You do realize it's kind of rude to respond to a bunch of people who tried to help you by effectively saying that their help is no good to you?
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jesus turned his cheek.
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Yeah, and we all know what cheek that actually was.
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So why can't we get an official ruling in the shadowrun catalyst rules forum?
Because we don't need one. And this goes for just about all rules arguments. You have the language - the RAW, if you will. Take it as it is literally written (a SS action creates no recoil - which would mean ever), and if there is conflicting language (which there is not here) choose what is best for your table (in this case the alternate is - consider it as a second shot on the same weapon for some unknown and incomprehensible reason, and is only good for a table that has a GM with a thing against DW). It's not hard. There's no a mystery. You may think for yourself.
Wow, self important much, or are you trying to be a tool.
I came into the official rules section of the company that is making the game to get a rules clarification, I don't see why another poster being rude and self important about a rules question.that actually belongs in this forum.
People gave you every bit of information (and more) required to answer your question, in the spirit of helping you, or enough for you to make an informed decision if you didn't trust that input (which you seemed to not), you continued to whine and demand even though we'd already held your hand the whole way. There's only so much we can do for you - and there's absolutely nothing the debs owe you. Not a whole lot of ways to say that.
You are the one out of line.