Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: user-unknown on <11-06-12/1445:36>
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Hi, my group is fiiiiinally starting a shadowrun game. Still haven't actually played yet, but looked around a bit on here over the last year or so and have hopefully made something relatively decent...
Character creation guidelines from GM - all PCs start as members of a special forces group, but are going to be disavowed shortly into the first session. We are apparently playing in a game world without magic, so no other metatypes allowed. Have to stick to cost limit but apparently we can take gear of any rating (including forbidden) at character creation. (EDIT - however I am trying to keep my character within the guidelines, and think/hope I have done so far). Also we are allowed to take hacked programs at character creation ;D We are also going to be given a certain number of extra points for contatcs, but I don't know how many yet, so haven't included any contacts below.
My idea for the character is kind of a Daniel Jackson type 'specialist' who has been assigned to the time as their electronics support person. I have also tried to make him relatviely competent in combat, but not sure if I've succeeded.
[spoiler]
Daniel 'Delta' Ellis
Daniel came to the notice of the agency after hacking into one of their secure servers - presented with the option of prison or signing up, he chose to join the agency as a cyber security specialist. He has received the standard training and implants to bring him up to the fitness standard required by the agency, but is still very much focussed on matrix and EWAR support. His criminal background however leads many of the agency staff to regard him with suspicion, if not outright hostility...
Attributes
BOD 4
AGI 3 (4)
REA 3
STR 2 (3)
CHA 3
INT 5
LOG5 (7)
WIL 3
Edge 4
Positive Qualities
Analytical Mind
Codeslinger (Hack on the Fly)
Negative Qualities
Bad Rep
Implant Induced Immune Deficiency
Oblivious
Records on File (with Agency)
SINner (Daniel Ellis)
Skills
Electronics Group 4
Athletics Group 1
Outdoors Group 1
Automatics 4 (SMG +2)
Cybercombat 1
Electronic Warfare 4
Etiquette 1 (Hackers +2)
First Aid 1
Hacking 6 (Exploit +2)
Infiltration 1
Pilot Ground Craft 1
Pistols 1
(Dodge 3 + Unarmed Combat 3 - from skillsoft)
Knowledge
Cantonese 2
Combat Tactics 1
Firearms 2
Gaming 2
Military 2 (Special Forces)
Security Design 5 (Government)
Security Tactics 5 (Matrix)
Shadow Community 3
Underworld 4 (Matrix Crime)
Cyberware
* Biomonitor
* Cybereyes 3 (Low Light Vision, Smartlink, Thermographic Vision, Vision Enhancement 3, Vision Magnification, Flare Compensation)
* Cyberears 3 (Damper, Audio Enhancement 3, Spatial Recognizer)
* Datajack
* Encephalon Rating 2
* Math SPU
* Skillwire Expert System
* Skillwires (Rating 3)
Bioware
* Cerebral Booster (Rating 2)
* Enhanced Protein Exchange: PuSHeD
* Muscle Augmentation (Rating 1)
* Muscle Toner (Rating 1)
* Synthacardium (Rating 3)
Gear
Commlink - 5, 5, 5, 5 - Fairlight Caliban, Iris Orb OS, Hardened 6, Optimization: Exploit, Response Upgrade 5, Customised Interface, Sim Module (Hot), Response Enhancer 3
HK 227-X
Ares Predator
Backpack with general survival gear (GPS, rations, light stick, flares, etc.)
Subvocal Microphone
Armor Jacket
Medkit (Rating 6)
Programs
* Analyze 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Browse 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Command 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Reality Filter 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Scan 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Edit 6 (Optimisation 2)
* Encrypt 6 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 2)
* Armor 5 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 1)
* ECCM 5 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 1)
* Sniffer 5
* Stealth 5 (Ergonomic, Optimisation 1)
* Track 5
* Attack 5
* Blackout 5
* Biofeedback Filter 5 (Ergonomic)
* Defuse 5
* Decrypt 5
* Data Bomb 5
* Medic 5
* Spoof 5
* Exploit 5 (Mute, Optimisation 1)
=== Agents ===
* Agent 4 (Adaptability 3)
* IC 4 (Homeground 3)
=== Other Programs ===
* Knight Errant Self-Defence Skillsoft Cluster
* Tacsoft 2
[/spoiler]
This looks pretty decent to me, but if anyone has any comments I would really appreciate some help :) I am aware that my gear is pretty lacking - currently have 8.5k spare but not quite sure what to do with it. I haven't seen the other PC sheets yet so not sure what else is covered by them, but I imagine if no one else has things like autopicker, tag eraser etc. it would be useful to get those. I would quite like to get some additional initiative passes, but only have 1.75 essence left and everything that grants extra seems to use 2 :-\
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I suggest you get the War! book and look at the NPC special forces in there. I haven't done the math for BP yet, but for the karma generation, special forces needs WELL OVER 1000 karma. I'd probably say somewhere in the realm of 1500 to 1600 at least.
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Yeah, I have mentioned this to the GM but we're going to be sticking with 400 BP character creation :) That was part of my reasoning behind making this character - it seems like I can make a pretty decent hacker with 400 BP, and the relative lack of combat skills / attributes can be written off as being due to being a new recruit / 'civilian specialist' type person.
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Yeah, I have mentioned this to the GM but we're going to be sticking with 400 BP character creation :) That was part of my reasoning behind making this character - it seems like I can make a pretty decent hacker with 400 BP, and the relative lack of combat skills / attributes can be written off as being due to being a new recruit / 'civilian specialist' type person.
Well, there's still no way to be anywhere near spec forces, so the most you'll be able to do is build a normal Hacker (which it looks to me like you've got a pretty good start). Better suggestion would be to get sledge hammers and approach your GM menacingly until he gets scared enough to give you enough points to actually build what the game concept is.
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Do yourself a favor and think about getting a commlink out of War...
Response is normally THE limiting factor for a hacker and if you can get your hands on a response 6+ commlink go for it...
Response 7 should be well enough and allows for later modification up to rating 10 (absolute maximum) (you can only ever upgrade commlinks by 3 points max)
And of course you can go for rating 6/7programs with additional options (like multiple targets on your attack program)
You could then probably strip the optimization form your current programs to get back a bit of money you just invested.
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Response 7 should be well enough and allows for later modification up to rating 10 (absolute maximum) (you can only ever upgrade commlinks by 3 points max)
Not quite... it's maximum of +2, so he'd need Response 8. The Renraku Suterusu (Response 8, Signal 7) would fit the bill perfectly, since he's got no Availability limits..
Also we are allowed to take hacked programs at character creation.
Big question here is... will your GM enforce Program Degradation?
--If so, it's going to ding you in the long run if you get too many of them. Probably only worth it for programs you plan on upgrading later.
--If not, then get everything you can at Rating 10, Optimization 2 and follow the below advice. Optimization means you don't have to spend that 192,000¥ on upgrading to Response 10.
Either way, Optimization 2 is still a good idea.
Also, be sure to slap Ergonomic on Analyze, Browse, ECCM, Edit, Encryption, Purge, Scan, and Stealth, as well as putting Mute on Edit, Exploit, Spoof, and anything else that might be used in a foreign node.
--- --- ---
Non Degrading Programs Advice
1) Get "War!"
2) Buy a Renraku Suterusu - 32,750¥ - 40F availability - Response 8, Signal 7.
3) Get System 8 - 32,000¥
4) Get Firewall 10 - 50,000¥
5) Buy every program you might ever want a Rating 10, Optimize 2.
6) Profit.
Total cost = 82,000¥ plus programs.
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Also we are allowed to take hacked programs at character creation.
Big question here is... will your GM enforce Program Degradation?
I have a suspicion the game is not going to run long enough for that to be a problem... If it does turn out to run longer than I expect, then I guess I can replace them as I go along.
Regarding getting a higher rating commlink - this would make me more effective, but although we are allowed to take things of any rating, I don't really want to. AFAIK everything at the moment is legal for a starting character. I guess my main concern is that this is going to be the first game my group plays with Shadowrun, and I would prefer to keep to the original plan as much as possible :) It seems like if we go too far off piste we are probably going to end up being massively unbalanced, and end up thinking the game is way too easy and get bored with it. I am also trying to avoid making a character that is massively powerful compared to the other characters as I'm almost certain theirs will be somewhat... less powerful (I have already had a discussion with one of our players about why their special ops character would probably not have Unfit, and their highest physical attribute at 2... ???)
Also, I only have about 9k nuyen left. I suppose I could drop encephalon to 1 and raise the commlink and programs with that though... Have also tried to ensure that various programs which looked the most useful can still be used by my IC and Agent programs, and AFAIK the highest you can ever get those is rating 6?
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The book "War!" goes into actual military-grade computer technology. There's pricing in there for up to Rating 10 for Programs and Commlink hardware.
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Come to think of it you could probably buy a nonrestricted agent rating 10 together with what JustADuded said and let it hack on itself with better results then you whish for...
I jsut can't find the cost for agents in War, are there no Agents above rating 6 or do they fall into a category which is provided by war?
Then take the remaining 350BP to make a zero Nuyen Mundane Sniper or the like (since Adept is out of the question iirc)...
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Agents are basically an automated "skill replacement," which means they're limited to Rating 6, since skills only go up to 6 (barring Aptitude, of course).
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Agents are basically an automated "skill replacement," which means they're limited to Rating 6, since skills only go up to 6 (barring Aptitude, of course).
And Spirits.
I wouldn't worry too much about the amount of points you've got vs. special forces in War!, really the important thing is how skilled you are in your specialty. The Spec Forces grunts tend to be at 4's in most things they're heavily trained in and 5+ in their gunning things down. Since your a hacker, you've got a six in your hacking, seems appropriate. You can hold your own with an automatic and you've got veteran level ratings in your other electronics/cracking skills (other than cybercombat which probably wasn't used much honestly). In all reality you've made a guy that seems to be the Spec Ops Van Guy.
As for what you've got statwise, you're not really gaining a whole lot from your cerebral boosters since your hacking (and other matrix skills) are always Program+Skill instead of Logic+Skill.
Honestly I'd would get rid of the Cerebral Booster, Math SPU, and Cybereyes/ears (they're just a more costly version of what you can get through Goggles/Glasses/Contacts and Earbuds/Headphones except for the Damper).
If you can scrounge up the points, slapping a 1 into Pilot: Aircraft would let you handle flying surveillance drones (and fly any enemy drones you manage to hack into). You can't default that though (of course you could snag a skillwire for it).
As far as your commlink goes, if you decide not to use War! (which is a good decision for your first game), a decent way to get a good link in your case (since you're making spec ops characters with no avail limit) would be Light Military Armor. It's expensive as all get out, but comes with a military commlink installed with rating 4 Response, Signal, System and Firewall. You can upgrade it to rating 6 hardware (Response/Signal) for 8500. You would have to put a mobility upgrade into it so that you wouldn't be encumbered, but all together the cost would only be 33,000.
In addition, it comes with Image Link, Smartlink, and Flare Comp built into the helm already, and you can slap some other vision mods into the helmet.
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[quote author=WellsIDidIt link=topic=9109.msg161069#msg161069 date=1352308649
I wouldn't worry too much about the amount of points you've got vs. special forces in War!...
...if you decide not to use War! (which is a good decision for your first game)...
[/quote]
As to the first comment, the NPCs in War! actually have the appropriate skills to be considered special forces, and this is the reason that 'former special forces' concepts tend to raise eyebrows in most groups--starting points unless REALLY, REALLY high are not enough to have the necessary skill.
As to the second, why don't people stop trying to hoodwink people into banning the book just because they dislike it and don't want anyone else to like it?
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I can understand if anyone wants to restrict himself to book x and y,
but if the rest of the group dosn't it can get really really fast really really unbalanced and it can start to lack fun that way.
Therefore I'ld really ask myself why do I think I'll have more fun when I'm not using the gear my GM specifically allows.
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I can understand if anyone wants to restrict himself to book x and y,
but if the rest of the group dosn't it can get really really fast really really unbalanced and it can start to lack fun that way.
Therefore I'ld really ask myself why do I think I'll have more fun when I'm not using the gear my GM specifically allows.
That's one thing, and I can understand it. My problem comes from the War! haters who just take every opportunity to down it (and bash the company for producing it) in an attempt to skew opinion of it in the direction of their own view.
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I don't think we are using the War book anyway as none of us have it - we are only using the corebook, Runners Companion, Augmentation, Unwired and Arsenal. If the game continues, I may look into getting it but will have to ask GM if it's allowed.
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That's one thing, and I can understand it. My problem comes from the War! haters who just take every opportunity to down it (and bash the company for producing it) in an attempt to skew opinion of it in the direction of their own view.
Yeah just imagine people who constantly bring up their own feelings about things like, say, magically active characters shouldn't use bioware or cyberware at all ever....
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I just tried to see how far one could get...
With Born rich and 60 BP in Nuyen + in Debt for 30k you come as far as:
1 Comlink Renraku sutenusu
1 Firewall 10
1 System 8
2 "Hacking" Programs at rating 10 with Optimization 2, ergonomic
I'ld go for stealth 10 and Exploit with mute
There is about 14k left
If we lower the Firewall to 9 we can add in a unrestricted Agent at rate 6
and be left with 8450 Nuyen...
If the GM would be so Kind to unlimit the BP to Nuyen option then we possibly indeed could go beyond normal limits and create some super hacker Agent but Money is too limited
Increasing a Hacking Programs rating from 6 to 7 is upping costs from 6k to 49k which is insane.
Considering this I'ld go
1 Comlink Renraku sutenusu
1 Firewall 10
1 System 8
1 Stealth rating 10 with Optimization 2, ergonomic
114,450 Nuyen left for all the rest of the programs at 6 with half of them ergonomic attacks options with area and mute
And don't forget to get together the stuff for 5 hot sim initiative passes
You'ld still have a huge benefit from the rule:
- you can suddenly run 16 programs instead of 5 before degragation happens
- you have all programs running at 6 plus options, which will still make hacking easy
- with that stealth and firewall no ordinary target will catch or hack you
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As to the second, why don't people stop trying to hoodwink people into banning the book just because they dislike it and don't want anyone else to like it?
I suggested that it was a good decision not to use it for their first game. So that people could learn the rules without the massive power increase. Doesn't really matter how you look at it, good or bad, War! is a massive power creep.
Now, you can disagree if you want, but all I have to do is ask a simple question: Is a rating 10 device more powerful than a rating 6 device?
Now, rating 10 commlinks were not available before War!, neither were 7-9. Blatant Power Creep.
As to the first comment, the NPCs in War! actually have the appropriate skills to be considered special forces, and this is the reason that 'former special forces' concepts tend to raise eyebrows in most groups--starting points unless REALLY, REALLY high are not enough to have the necessary skill.
They lack any knowledge skills at all, any social skills at all (other than instruction and intimidation), any mechanic skills at all (Ok, I'll give you first aid since that's effectively Human Mechanic), any hardware skill for actually disabling hardware, and any diving or watercraft skills.
So yes, they have all the skills required to be a real Special Forces operatives. The main issues are that BPs are so restrictive to a generalist character type and that Spec Force characters (realistically) would be trained in just about everything at a general level and most combat skills at a professional to elite level.
With a Karma Build the skills would only cost around 450 karma, which means it is feasible (if you ignore that Firearms is over the starting cap), but it would leave you a little light in the attributes and gear departments. Bringing the Firearms group down to 4, you could easily go with that skill set up (429 karma) which is a combat grunt spec ops member, not a specialist) and still have stats of 3/5/3/3, 3/4/3/3 (265 karma), have 10 points of contacts (20 Karma), have 20 karma worth of Knowledge skill and 40k worth of gear.
Or, you could make an ex-spec ops character that wasn't just a combat grunt.
That's one thing, and I can understand it. My problem comes from the War! haters who just take every opportunity to down it (and bash the company for producing it) in an attempt to skew opinion of it in the direction of their own view.
I have no issue with the company producing it. I do think it's title was horribly misleading (should've been Bogota! in my opinion) and that the actual gameplay section was on the light side, but the only real issue I have with the book is the horrible quality of it. The editing work was abysmal, and it really really shows. Much of the gear is set up to be horribly ambiguous in description, and a lot of it seemed half though out in the writing.
I apologize that my advising a new player to not jump into the power creep book first thing has deeply offended you senses. I suggest alligator skinned clothing.
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Marshmallow and flames aside...I used to get this request for a player to play "Special Forces" something or other with various systems, and really its the GM who needs to step in and rationalize it. Its not the Hacker part i am debating, the "Special Forces" tag is the bullseye. Most successful well trained "Special Forces" work for and are pretty much the property of the govt. Ex- should probably accompany any starting "Spexial Forces", and with a suitable background explaining why you are not dead, with you head full of high end military knowledge and training, its hard to make a clean break when you are worth so much to you "parents." Just my 2 cents, but after a certain point, its like just going through the motions with dice...If you start that high, whats the point? Hack the planet until you come up with something else that has to have huge numbers to even compete, which has yet to account for the other players and how they will interact and if its even possible to balance against the other roles. Rigger gets a Tank? Gauss Gannons for the Troll Artillery Platform? unless thats all you want to do, cause I find it gets stale, Its almost like when you use the cheat codes in a video game and it loses its desire much faster. Its all about the level of involvement. They brain wash loyalty, and all other kinds o things to make it to where there is no other life but the one they trained you for. So, again, just 2 more cents on the OP subject, as a Gm i have to ask myself seriously, "Do i want such a pervasive influence on my game? To the point where its becomes almost a waste of time to roll dice?"
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Marshmallow and flames aside...I used to get this request for a player to play "Special Forces" something or other with various systems, and really its the GM who needs to step in and rationalize it. Its not the Hacker part i am debating, the "Special Forces" tag is the bullseye. Most successful well trained "Special Forces" work for and are pretty much the property of the govt. Ex- should probably accompany any starting "Spexial Forces", and with a suitable background explaining why you are not dead, with you head full of high end military knowledge and training, its hard to make a clean break when you are worth so much to you "parents."
Uh :o As my original post says, the 'special forces' bit was mandated as part of all character's background by GM as we start the game as an active team. He has also let slip that the 'ex' part will follow soon into the first mission... ;)
Anyway, I know it's not the 'correct' point range for what people consider special forces to be, but since this is our first game I'm going to assume the GM is going to balance it around us having this number of points. Ignoring the 'special forces' bit then, is this a decent starting hacker with combat skills?
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, and really its the GM who needs to step in and rationalize it.
Uh :o As my original post says, the 'special forces' bit was mandated as part of all character's background by GM as we start the game as an active team. He has also let slip that the 'ex' part will follow soon into the first mission... ;)
Anyway, I know it's not the 'correct' point range for what people consider special forces to be, but since this is our first game I'm going to assume the GM is going to balance it around us having this number of points. Ignoring the 'special forces' bit then, is this a decent starting hacker with combat skills?
I was referring to the "Get this book, Break Character rationale" of some of the other posters. Not OP.
"Special Forces" is just a label, so its up to GM to define what makes them so special
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with you head full of high end military knowledge and training, its hard to make a clean break when you are worth so much to you "parents."
Organizations that don't allow retirement tend to suffer in recruiting quality.
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There is a difference between you retiring at the end of your career, and them losing assets that are in their prime and have been actively invested in with R/F Wares and Gears out the wazoo.
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They get to a chance to leave at the end of their tour if they want just like everyone else. They're usually several tours in by the time they make the cut to begin with though.
As for ware, it can be pulled out and reused. I have a hard time seeing the military use anything better than Alphaware for these guys, just so they can reuse and reuse and reuse. Normal gear, you're not going to be taking home anyway so that's not really an issue.
The only thing they'll usually be bringing home is any cybernetics that they paid for (that aren't F) and/or an easier time getting a CCW license in some cases. I know that some states are currently considering enforcing a minimum time after service before you can get a CCW license (or legally buy a firearm in the state) due to PTSD concerns, but it's met a lot of resistance.
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They get to a chance to leave at the end of their tour if they want just like everyone else. They're usually several tours in by the time they make the cut to begin with though.
As for ware, it can be pulled out and reused. I have a hard time seeing the military use anything better than Alphaware for these guys, just so they can reuse and reuse and reuse. Normal gear, you're not going to be taking home anyway so that's not really an issue.
The only thing they'll usually be bringing home is any cybernetics that they paid for (that aren't F) and/or an easier time getting a CCW license in some cases. I know that some states are currently considering enforcing a minimum time after service before you can get a CCW license (or legally buy a firearm in the state) due to PTSD concerns, but it's met a lot of resistance.
I suspect that in a lot of cases its cheaper to leave the old cyberware in. Especially if there's a reserve term pending. I also wouldn't be surprised if cyber lengthened your enlistment.
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I suspect that in a lot of cases its cheaper to leave the old cyberware in. Especially if there's a reserve term pending. I also wouldn't be surprised if cyber lengthened your enlistment.
Oh yeah, definitely.
I could easily see an army, especially the ones that aren't yet "for profit" organizations, giving you some basics as a "Standard Issue" package, along with necessary prostheses, as well as a stipend to help pay for optional upgrades, since they directly improve your value as a combat asset.
You can "spend ahead," of course, but then they own your ass until you've paid back the cost of your implants... probably a discounted rate based off the army's wholesale / bulk-discount rate, of course, but still enough to need 15-20 years to pay it all back if you get chromed out to the level of a Prime Runner-grade Street Samurai.
Less of a problem for Elves than for Orks, of course, but who said life in the Sixth World was fair?
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I suspect that in a lot of cases its cheaper to leave the old cyberware in. Especially if there's a reserve term pending. I also wouldn't be surprised if cyber lengthened your enlistment.
When you get right down to it, it's only half about cost; the other half is a matter of logistics. The person retiring doesn't need his old implants anymore as far as they look at it. In addition, if he keeps his military grade implants what can he do with them? Sure some may be legal to own, but what happens if he sells his military models to the highest bidder so that they can reverse engineer and design better streamlined viruses, bugs, etc that just affect military X's ware.
Cost is important, but it's not the only factor on the board.
That said, I believe military surgeons are usually paid around the same as a Lt., which is only around 4,000¥ or 48,000¥/year. The surgeries wouldn't be nearly as expensive (to the military) as the costs in Augmentation for independent docs. Assuming a surgery a day,
I would really assume that most service areas would have required packages (for mundane) that are included in enlistment. Augmentation is so rampant that they have to augment soldiers for them to be a viable combat asset. In addition, the time served, pay off formula is a lot riskier in military service avenues than it is in Law Enforcement and Security Firms because the risk of injury to the asset is much higher.
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I honestly think you're over thinking things.
1) I suspect most soldiers have minimal to no cyberware. About 80% of what you can get out of cyberaugmentation you can get as an external option on a milspec armor suit. Vision, Hearing and Com augmentations I suspect are all handled exterior to the soldier. Remember, the kind of concealment issues runners care about largely don't matter.
2) The costs of cyberware are trivial compared to the cost of training and supporting a soldier. Right now in real world terms the cost to keep a single American Soldier in a combat theater is between 850,000 and 1 million dollars. On that scale the 100 bucks you save repurposing the datajack is chicken scratch. Besides which by the time Joe Soldier musters out his ware is probably 5 to 6 years behind the SOTA. I know that at the RPG scale we largely ignore that kind of issue but if we're talking in universe that's a pretty big argument against trying to retrieve it.
3) Remember that in Shadowrun, unlike the real world, the market to recruit soldiers is highly competitive. There are literally dozens of private, public and para military organizations hiring. I suspect that if Corp Army A scoops out all your ware at the end of your term and Corp Army B doesn't make you undergo massive invasive surgery then corp B is going to get a much better grade of recruit. The same goes for national armies which are competing in the same recruiting pool. In fact I suspect that a fairly powerful recruitment tool in the SR verse is prosthetic devices for people who can't afford them.
4) Everyday in the real world people leave the US armed forces with skills that are many times more dangerous and in demand than any piece of Cyberware. In the real world our response to this has been to trust them and keep an eye out for problems. That's worked pretty well.
5) Armies in the SR world train combat mages and adepts all the time and don't seem to worry about the same issues.
My suspicion is that it works like this.
You take whatever your military branches version of the ASVAB and they determine that your not worth training as a mage or adept.
At this point everyone probably gets a datajack, but that's a trivial cost on the level of military training. If you joined up to get Cyberlegs to replace the ones you lost in that car crash, or a pair of eyes to cure your blindness this is where it happens.
If your MOS is logistics or aviation maintenance or something that's probably it. You may have some optional ware made available to you if you pay for it.
If you get a front line infantry combat MOS you might at this point be looking at an initiative enhancer of some kind or some supplemental ware. Again the costs are pretty trivial compared to the costs of training a soldier.
If you end up as a pilot or tank crewman you probably get a vehicle control rig. Again this is a trivial cost.
More extensive ware may come as a reup bonus or with a rider extending your term, but you don't want to deter your best recruits from applying from the positions you need your best people in.
I suspect that most rookies in special forces are second enlistment or later and are signing up for something like a 6 year term followed by a like term as reservists. Like Nuclear Power Plant technicians and Hazmat disposal guys in the real world I suspect that they are required to maintain some contact with their parent body and possibly maintain some of their security clearances. But remember by the time they muster out your spec ops trooper is sporting ware that is close to a decade old, even if it was continually upgraded up until the begin of their reserve tour.
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Remember Military Armor is expensive and tailored to the individual. It's not a cheap way to stave off cybering your troops, it's a tool for your assault teams.
A lot can go into Armor and External devices, but many things like your Wired Reflexes, enhanced Agility, Reaction Boosters, ect. aren't as widely available. Law Enforcement rely on drugs since actual combat is relatively rare for them, but soldiers that will be deployed need these to stay viable against other threats that have this sort of advantage.
Costs may be trivial, but you can bet that the corporation is going to collect every single penny they can. That's how corporations work and a military functions just like a corporation in essence. Sure, the ware might be getting old, but you can recycle and upgrade it between users a lot easier than while it's in one. Many corporations look at factors in the fractions of a penny, I don't really see this being any different.
You can't get rid of a skillset that someone has learned, but that doesn't mean you have to turn them out into the population with a loaded gun. Some ware may not be military proprietary and the soldier may pay off on his own (after all even at 2-3 grand a month, they have lifestyle paid for so they can save up a good 10-15k easy on a two year tour if they want), but you can bet they'll be taking the combat grade stuff out if for no other reason than to avoid a PR nightmare "Ex-Ares marine butchers family of 8 with Military Grade Anti-Human Reflexes," ect. The media isn't exactly known for being truly accurate.
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It's a lot easier to retailor a suit of armor than rip out ware though, and again I suspect that your average grunt is depending a lot more on the coordination provided by military tacnets than he is on ass kicking reflexes.
Even with mil spec gear I suspect that deactivation is more common than removal.
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There is also the option of skillwires. When compared to training expenses, it's rather trivial at 6000 nuyen for Rating 3. You can get the whole soldiering package there, the rest can be taught normally (survival stuff perhaps). The software of course would be expensive, but I'm sure government contractors don't charge per installation. Or at least, these armed forces would have a cheaper means of providing skillsofts.
Let's see, with a Datajack, Skillwires Rating 3, and Wired Reflexes 1 it comes to 15,750 nuyen and 2.43 Essence with a Cyberware Suite.
Cheap. With an Agility of 3 and a Smartlink, that's 8 dice for shooting which ain't bad.
Now there doesn't seem to be much of a stigma for people to 'ware up in the Sixth World. And for those signing up to be in a combat MOS, I'm sure they'd take any upgrades they can to survive. That suite above is damned cheap, I've made guns that cost less than that. Factor in mass production and so on I don't think most outfits would even bother redeeming the ware. Of course, they'd be useful as second-hand 'ware to new recruits.
There are the professional soldiers who rate a Military Armour suit. Then there are the fodder that don't need much training.
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Or at least, these armed forces would have a cheaper means of providing skillsofts.
Oh, yeah, that part's simple.
I'm pretty dang sure they've got enough skilled coders that they can just task some of them to custom-make the required Skillsofts without having to pay royalties. Either that, or make a work-for-hire arrangement with Ares or someone, so that they own the software outright rather than paying per-license.
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The Lone Star SWAT suite from Augmentation seems about right for typical combat soldier (the description specifically mentions the UCAS military, although there's wiggle room for what the UCAS equivalent of SWAT is.) Flare Comp, Thermo and Smartgun Eye mods. Wired 1 and Plastic bone Lacing.
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Yeah I wouldn't even bother with the eye mods for fodder. Or even the standard soldiers. Sure, there's something to be said about always having Flare Comp on (and also the sound dampeners) but it's easier to build them into Goggles or Helmets. Makes upgrades easier, software and hardware.
I'd consider Synthacardium (I think that's the one) to be a good standard issue bioware. Boost all your soldier's capabilties? Yes please.
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Yeah I wouldn't even bother with the eye mods for fodder. Or even the standard soldiers. Sure, there's something to be said about always having Flare Comp on (and also the sound dampeners) but it's easier to build them into Goggles or Helmets. Makes upgrades easier, software and hardware.
I'd consider Synthacardium (I think that's the one) to be a good standard issue bioware. Boost all your soldier's capabilties? Yes please.
Running, Climbing, Swimming, and traversing difficult terrain at speed (Gymnastics - Parkour specialty)... oh heck yeah.
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Yeah I wouldn't even bother with the eye mods for fodder. Or even the standard soldiers. Sure, there's something to be said about always having Flare Comp on (and also the sound dampeners) but it's easier to build them into Goggles or Helmets. Makes upgrades easier, software and hardware.
I'd consider Synthacardium (I think that's the one) to be a good standard issue bioware. Boost all your soldier's capabilties? Yes please.
Running, Climbing, Swimming, and traversing difficult terrain at speed (Gymnastics - Parkour specialty)... oh heck yeah.
Yep, sounds good for a less budget conscious force. Couldn't be repossessed though (at least unless its the Aztlaner Army...)
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Yeah I wouldn't even bother with the eye mods for fodder. Or even the standard soldiers. Sure, there's something to be said about always having Flare Comp on (and also the sound dampeners) but it's easier to build them into Goggles or Helmets. Makes upgrades easier, software and hardware.
I'd consider Synthacardium (I think that's the one) to be a good standard issue bioware. Boost all your soldier's capabilties? Yes please.
Running, Climbing, Swimming, and traversing difficult terrain at speed (Gymnastics - Parkour specialty)... oh heck yeah.
Yep, sounds good for a less budget conscious force. Couldn't be repossessed though (at least unless its the Aztlaner Army...)
It's only 30k for a Rating 3 at Standard Grade pricing... why would they bother? Just make it part of the debt they have to work off during their tour.
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Yeah I wouldn't even bother with the eye mods for fodder. Or even the standard soldiers. Sure, there's something to be said about always having Flare Comp on (and also the sound dampeners) but it's easier to build them into Goggles or Helmets. Makes upgrades easier, software and hardware.
I'd consider Synthacardium (I think that's the one) to be a good standard issue bioware. Boost all your soldier's capabilties? Yes please.
Running, Climbing, Swimming, and traversing difficult terrain at speed (Gymnastics - Parkour specialty)... oh heck yeah.
Yep, sounds good for a less budget conscious force. Couldn't be repossessed though (at least unless its the Aztlaner Army...)
It's only 30k for a Rating 3 at Standard Grade pricing... why would they bother? Just make it part of the debt they have to work off during their tour.
That was actually my point earlier remember. I suspect armies aren't spending a lot of time repossessing cyberware from honorably discharged vets.
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I think thats a reason to put everything that's possible on auxillary gear and not implants, like mentioned before...
Cyber eyes? no... slap it on the helmet visor
Strength boost? slap in onto the military armor
Hell why waste 30k on a single guy when you can 6 people with an automatic rifle for the same money?
With a pay of 5,5k nuyen which is probably way to much...
I think in 2070 military is still trying to be cost effective and humans will still be somewhat expendable
Of course there are approaches where thousands of foot soldiers aren't the solution but the...
you probably go for spec ops, where money is seamingly no problem anymore...
a squad of 4 people each worth 1.000.000 nuyen are less expensive,
then 1.000 soldiers worth each 5000 nuyen.