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Little things that bug me about SR legendary Runners

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Reaver

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« Reply #15 on: <06-05-19/2124:30> »
So we all agree then? Shadowrun 4chan was better than Shadowrun Reddit.

Or...

Is this a case or art imitating life?
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <06-06-19/0027:38> »
Eh like I said I like the smaller cast for character development. So Reddit.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

mcv

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« Reply #17 on: <06-06-19/1139:37> »
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'.  I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too.  Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?

Marcus

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« Reply #18 on: <06-06-19/1317:55> »
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.

Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.

So please define Mary Sue for me.
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #19 on: <06-06-19/1400:55> »
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'.  I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too.  Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?

I'd have to check, but I *think* /dev's just about to turn 30. (Oh lord, we're all old!)

But, yes, several 'runners are getting on in years. Some people, like Villers, can go the Leonization route, but...

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #20 on: <06-06-19/1412:32> »
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.

Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.

So please define Mary Sue for me.

Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.

And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well.  In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #21 on: <06-06-19/1447:30> »
So please define Mary Sue for me.
The world and its rules bend to accommodate them, and not the other way around. Using Clockwork as an example: he is both a decker and a drone rigger, and he is very competent in both roles. While it's not hard to obtain the skills necessary to be competent in both roles, having a good cyberdeck, a good RCC and a variety of drones would be obscenely expensive. As a person, he is thoroughly unlikable. He is hostile, bitter, vindictive, abrasive, openly bigoted and has a poor sense of humor. Despite this, people keep working with him....or at least, he keeps getting hired, because he's a loner too. On top of being so generally unpleasant, he has also made death threats against other Jackpointers and even one of their children. Yet, he retains his Jackpoint membership, and no one he has threatened has decided to simply off him first.
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #22 on: <06-06-19/1713:13> »
If two dinosaurs fight do you get upset about it?
Rest assured both are just plot monsters. Ghostwalker is just less warm fuzzy BiG D. Root for whomever you like better.
...my namesake would have rooted for Ghostwalker.  In 2E, she went through both of Harlequin's "little games" and loathed him.
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #23 on: <06-06-19/1734:28> »
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.

Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
...loved The Smiling Bandit - [Strikes-again/Ha-Ha-Ha] though.
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FastJack

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« Reply #24 on: <06-06-19/1737:35> »
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'.  I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too.  Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?

I'd have to check, but I *think* /dev's just about to turn 30. (Oh lord, we're all old!)

But, yes, several 'runners are getting on in years. Some people, like Villers, can go the Leonization route, but...
Dev was born in 2056, so she's 24 in 2080.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #25 on: <06-06-19/1817:55> »
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.

Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
...loved The Smiling Bandit - [Strikes-again/Ha-Ha-Ha] though.

I loved a lot of them. Smiling bandit being a favorite.

4e plus I can’t think of one I give a shit about.

Marcus

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« Reply #26 on: <06-07-19/1309:00> »

Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.

And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well.  In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.

So here's the thing. Mary sues aren't flawless characters. Mary Sue is a reference to the Brady bunch tv show. Mary sue characters are those whom everything just goes right for, just b/c they are whom they are. Nothing bad Happens to a Mary Sue. The term has become wildly miss-used on internet.  No character in the jack point group fits that description.  If you want to say they are really strong characters or they are unrealistic character certainly some of them meet some of those standards.


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Voran

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« Reply #27 on: <06-07-19/1354:48> »
Yknow, its not really an annoyance/etc, but another thing I noticed with the Legendaries and Jackpointers highlights what I feel is a disconnect with the narrative-drama fluff and the ruleset.

When you look at all the jackpointers and shadowtalkers and stuff, they're all pretty much soloists, maaybe pairing up with each other once in awhile.  The way they get described in the various ministories in the source books/etc, they're seemingly always running solo, doing entire runs worth of stuff by themselves apparently.  Maybe someone like Clockwork or one of the riggers, or Mercs talks about working with a team but usually its not a 'core team' its faceless mooks they're using to fill slots, or nameless guys in a larger merc operation.

On the other hand, as a social game, SR is kind of setup as 'you get a table group and you guys make a team' and unless chars are dying left and right, generally repeat table sessions means repeat chars.  I mean, its not a huge deal, and some of the narrative fluff does nicely show 'not legendaries' doing teamwork, for good or ill. 

prophet42

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« Reply #28 on: <06-07-19/1404:43> »
The 'Mary Sue' concept actually traces back to an early (& really horrible) Star Trek fanfic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: <06-07-19/1434:50> »

Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.

And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well.  In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.

So here's the thing. Mary sues aren't flawless characters. Mary Sue is a reference to the Brady bunch tv show. Mary sue characters are those whom everything just goes right for, just b/c they are whom they are. Nothing bad Happens to a Mary Sue. The term has become wildly miss-used on internet.  No character in the jack point group fits that description.  If you want to say they are really strong characters or they are unrealistic character certainly some of them meet some of those standards.

Even using that definition 4e+ are more Mary Sue than the earlier edition shadowland characters.