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Commlink and Deck can be implanted / put in cyberlimp, yet RCC can't

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DoStuffZ

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« on: <06-02-15/1620:48> »
So I just had the idea to put my commlink in a cyberlimb, no problem p.453 is quite helpful on that bit. I also found the Deck the same place. The three (Commlink, Deck and RCC) are described to be very alike. Commlink being the smaller one, Deck being the size of a tablet and RCC being the bigger one (a suitcase). RCC is also described as being a commlink with a few extra features. If they are so much alike, why is it that while the former two can be implanted, yet the RCC can't.

Both the commlink and deck will be assumed to have a new shape that'll fit inside your body or cyberlimb. Is it intentionally that they haven't added RCC to that list or is there something that prevents an RCC to be implanted.

My thoughts would be its an oversight, and the values should be in the kind of
Commlink    0.2     [2]      2000+commlink
Deck     0.4     [4]       5000+deck
RCC     0.6     [6]       7000+RCC

Regards

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #1 on: <06-02-15/1818:35> »
I really couldn't comment in whether or not this is an oversight, and while I think it is odd that commlinks and decks are both listed as headware this might be a reason RCCs aren't listed. A cyberskull only has 4 capacity, which is enough for a deck and nothing else.

I think your house rule is perfectly acceptable. As a gm, I'd allow it, but I would make the cost consistent with the other incremental increases and go to 8k instead of 7k.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #2 on: <06-02-15/1834:31> »
Size.

Comlinks are about the size of a smart-phone.

Cyberdecks are about the size of a tablet computer.

Rigger Command Consoles are about the size of a small briefcase.

They need to be significantly larger in order to have the I/O for multiple parallel data-streams without signal loss. Remember you can have 20 Fly-Spy drones, all getting their Autosofts from the RCC and no loss of signal or program quality. This isn't even getting into the manual controls and possibly multiple screams for displaying simultaneous sensor feeds.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #3 on: <06-02-15/1857:22> »
I seem to recall that back in SR2 or SR3 cyberlimb RCCs were possible. Sadly I can't recall which books dealt with that.
Rigger 2/3? Man and Machine?

Found it!

P. 25 of Man and Machine. Essence cost was 0.3 which was the same as a higher end cyberdeck back then (transys highlander, Excaliber was 3.5)looking at that then I can't see why a rcc can't fit into the same slot as a cyberdeck
« Last Edit: <06-02-15/1918:54> by PiXeL01 »
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #4 on: <06-02-15/1944:26> »
The problem there is cyberdecks where a lot bigger back then.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #5 on: <06-02-15/2000:36> »
ScytheKnight
Wait, what? Yes, cyberdecks were a lot bigger in sr2/sr3; that's the whole point being made. If a bigger cyberdeck could be put in a limb, and an RCC could as well even back then, then your argument that a cyberdeck is now much smaller doesn't work because both decks and RCCs clearly could be implanted in the past, and if anything technology keeps getting smaller and smaller as time progresses.

To recap: this is quite clearly not possible under the rules as written, I don't think anyone is debating this. Whether this is intentional is unknown. House rules have been presented. I would allow it.

To those of you who argue that "it's too big":
First of all, that's what she said. Bazinga!
Seriously, though, a cyberdeck, which is tablet sized, let's not forget, can be made to fit inside of your freaking skull without any diverse effects. I don't think its beyond reason to assume an RCC can be similarly miniaturized and mounted in a cyberlimb or cyber torso. Capacity 6 sounds about right, as you'd no longer need multiple screens, manual controls (joystick, throttle, what have you), because you would get DNI just like an immplanted commlink or deck.

Personal opinion warning:
I believe the writers didn't simply overlook this, but I would still allow it. The numerous refences to implanted commlinks and decks never once mention RCCs. That being said, riggers didn't get a lot of love in SR5, so who knows.

Reaver

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« Reply #6 on: <06-02-15/2038:10> »
The biggest limit to size today is heat.

We can print a billion diodes on silicone the size of a dime.

But to run all billion diodes without heat failure requires a heat sink the size of a battleship! Hence why we don't print a billiin diodes. (1 diode requires 0.7 vDC. A billion would be.... 700 million volts DC.)


So while the argument "they could make it smaller" holds some water, without a whole technical manual to study. "Small briefcase size" just might be as small as it gets.... and implanting somthing that generates  heat excessively is not a wise idea....

And yes things change. Not always for the better (aspestoes, the perfect natural heat resistant substance! It only kills you... and still pound for pound, the best heat protective product...)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #7 on: <06-02-15/2052:59> »
Well for implanting comlinks and cyberdecks there's stripping out all the secondary input/output systems except for the DNI to save space. To me, I think most of the space involved in an RCC is all the equipment required for mass number of parallel connections needed to handle drone swarms.
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Hibiki54

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« Reply #8 on: <06-02-15/2112:56> »
Here is a better analogy when comparing commlinks, cyberdecks and RCCs.

Lets use Samsung and Apple Products as an example when comparing relative size. A commlink in SR5 can be compared to an older model Samsung Galaxy S3 or S4, or an iPhone (not the latest) in terms of size and such. The biggest component on a phone is the screen, so an implanted commlink are actually smaller than normal commlinks. A cyberdeck can be compared to the Samsung Galaxy Note series and small screen tablets no bigger than 10 inches screen size. The Galaxy Tab S 10.1 and iPad are great examples of a cyberdeck size and like commlinks, their biggest components are their screen, so that is eliminated to make it an implant. RCCs, on the other hand, are larger and can be compared to a modern gaming laptop. While it can be the same size as a cyberdeck, the screen is not it's biggest component -- RCCs have extra hardware that help in pure wireless signal output and processing power geared to handle multiple slaved devices. This makes it more beefy. (In game mechanics, this processing power allows you to give commands to all your drones as one simple action. Commlinks and cyberdecks can only do control device to one drone using a complex action)

Anyone got a better explaination?

PiXeL01

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« Reply #9 on: <06-03-15/0011:01> »
Then what has happened that caused the RCCs to swell in size? 15 years ago (SR time) it was possible to install a RCC into a limb and even the cranium without any significant impact, yet now that is impossible.
What I believe are the biggest components of the RCC aren't necessary the processors and antennas but the controls and screens. Taking those away (since it would be purely DNI anyway) would really shrink it.
So no, I have no problems with the suggested house rule or even using the same slot as a deck.

Added:
Having said that - I delved further back and found the Rigger 2 listing of the cyber RCC. Again the Essence loss was the same but it had a really low range (Flux 0) which could be boosted by cyberlimb signal boosters.
« Last Edit: <06-03-15/0022:27> by PiXeL01 »
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I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #10 on: <06-03-15/0119:32> »
Then what has happened that caused the RCCs to swell in size? 15 years ago (SR time) it was possible to install a RCC into a limb and even the cranium without any significant impact, yet now that is impossible.
What I believe are the biggest components of the RCC aren't necessary the processors and antennas but the controls and screens. Taking those away (since it would be purely DNI anyway) would really shrink it.
So no, I have no problems with the suggested house rule or even using the same slot as a deck.

Added:
Having said that - I delved further back and found the Rigger 2 listing of the cyber RCC. Again the Essence loss was the same but it had a really low range (Flux 0) which could be boosted by cyberlimb signal boosters.

Game Mechanics coupled with Oversight/Splatbooks. That's what I would guess... so your House Rule is fine (bumping the cost up to ¥8k.) People will always argue on the Internet (I know I love to) but considering that it's already been done before house ruling it possible until the actual 5th edition Rigger Splatbook comes out shouldn't be that big of a deal. If it's not there then... either keep the House Rule or modify your character at that point. It seems legit to me... not broken or overpowered. Enjoy

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <06-03-15/0203:27> »
The control rig is headware. This is where the sim module is located. This is also what provide the rigger with DNI. This is the part that is connected to your brain.

The RCC is mostly a signal enhancer. A device that give you soother and faster transition when jumping between your drones. A device that can run autosofts. There is no reason why it should be headware. An implanted RCC will not give you the equivalent of DNI; you get that from your implanted control rig.

But there is also no reason why you should not be able to place it inside a cyber limb.... i would say it would probably fit inside a large smuggling compartment. Done.

Rooks

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« Reply #12 on: <06-03-15/0309:40> »
Right, so get a used synthetic cyber skull get a smugglers compartment and boom done instant rcc storage facility, course I never understood why people wanted head implanted anything, now especially, your have and implanted cyberdeck, whiz, you get hit by a data spike while running AR now your deck is bricked and inside your head, never understood implanted commlinks either least with the cyberskull/smuggler compartment you can swap its out or open up take it out fix it then put it back in

Edit oh wait you mean large smuggling
« Last Edit: <06-03-15/0316:00> by Rooks »

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <06-03-15/0739:48> »
Yes. That was what i typed, wasn't it...?

Even the large smuggling compartment might be on the lower end spectra though
"It can hold something the size of a heavy pistol or a small SMG (gamemaster’s discretion—think breadbox size as a guide)."


While the RCC is described to be
"...about the size of a briefcase."






You can probably fit a small SMG inside a briefcase, the empty shell of a RCC or a large smuggling compartment
- but the large smuggling compartment might be on the small side if you want to fit a briefcase or RCC into it.

You need to run it by your GM ;)
« Last Edit: <06-03-15/0746:28> by Xenon »

Rooks

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« Reply #14 on: <06-03-15/1051:05> »
Course you could always fit a cyberdeck into your foot