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Walking into a sustained Area Mana spell? Are you affected?

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Quatar

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« on: <05-06-16/0822:57> »
Ok, so I cast an Area spell, let's say "Opium Den" on the enemies. I get lots of hits and they're essentially rendered catatonic.
It's a Mana spell, so my understanding is, it locks on to the astral auras in the area, and not actually the area itself.

I sustain the spell, so the troll can walk it and smash their little heads.

Does the Troll get hit by the effect of the spell the moment he walks into it's area, or is he safe, since he wasn't inside when the spell was actually cast?

Follow up question: Is the answer different if it's a Physical spell, like say "Mass Sense Removal"?

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #1 on: <05-06-16/0828:29> »
Until the release of Street Grimoire I was under the impression that Area spells, regardless of source, affected friend or foe alike.

But then we got spells like Foreboding and Hot Potato, both of which specifically spell out the following:
Quote from: Street Grimoire p112
The drawback to this spell is that the spellcaster cannot limit or control who is targeted by this spell, as it effects enemies and allies alike.

This implies that some area spells targets friends and foe alike, while others don't. As such, at our table we play it that unless it is specifically mentioned like for Foreboding and Hot Potato, the caster can decide who the targets of an Area spell are. The exception to this is indirect combat spells, which are more grenade like and do not target friend or foe.

The Bald Man

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« Reply #2 on: <05-06-16/0935:03> »
@Quatar - That is a good question, and I don't have necessarily have the answer, but if you can answer another questions I think you back into this one.  If someone under the effect of a sustained-area-mana spell such as opium den and is removed from the area of effect, are they still effected?  I would posit that if you remove someone and they are still under the influence then new people entering wold not be - 'lock-on' at cast.  A complication is every action phase you sustain you can move the spell center/area.

Probably the most fair, and easiest to adjudicate is that the area is fixed.  People moving into the area are affected by the spell while people moving out of the area shake it off.  If on sustain, you move the area you must recalculate who is effected and who isn't (note that this should NOT be used as a way to force multiple resistance checks against a single target while you only face the drain once).

Consider an extreme example of the affect persisting after leaving the area: Force 6 Mob Mind at a crowded pedestrian through fair (or 2nd floor of express elevator) would make a 40' diameter of control; sustain it, initial order it to continue what they were doing.  You could have 100's of people as mind slaves in a very short period of time that you could activate later.  Many consider Control Thoughts and Mob Mind to be OP already; so I recommend keeping to the area. 

I would say that Physical Spells are fixed.  Certain effects may persist after leaving the area, but they wouldn't be magical.  An example is if someone or something is set on fire by a fire spell - the fire is a non-magical result of being exposed to that much heat. 

Thoughts?

adzling

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« Reply #3 on: <05-06-16/1035:05> »
there is another option,
which is cast the area spell, anyone in the area is affected.
if you sustain it those affected remain affected
new people entering the area do no get affected as they were not in the area at the time of casting.

i have no idea which of these approaches to area spells is right, oddly.....

bangbangtequila

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« Reply #4 on: <05-06-16/1103:10> »
there is another option,
which is cast the area spell, anyone in the area is affected.
if you sustain it those affected remain affected
new people entering the area do no get affected as they were not in the area at the time of casting.

i have no idea which of these approaches to area spells is right, oddly.....
This was my instinctive reaction as well, and it holds up after scrutiny. As stated earlier, Mana spells cling to the aura of those affected. So you flood an area with mana, and whoever is there (friend or foe) would be inundated with the sheer force of your mystical might. Anyone who enters after that, however, is completely unaffected as the mana is already all in use or released. At this point, you're no longer channelling a pile of mana into an area, you're sustaining the mana that is linked to specific auras, and as such anyone who remains close enough who was affected remains under the effect of your spell, but no new victims are made.

Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <05-06-16/1346:10> »
Agreed. Though I would also point out that, with that ruling, so long as the spell is being sustained, the effects would last, even after the victims left the area of effect.
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bangbangtequila

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« Reply #6 on: <05-06-16/1447:14> »
For mana spells that makes sense. As long as the subjects remain within line of sight/whatever the effective range on sustained spells is. Physical spells would be just the area.

adzling

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« Reply #7 on: <05-06-16/1448:55> »
Yup as long as they remain with range of the caster, whatever that is.
We use magic x 10 in meters which I think is the dividing line for remote services for spirits?

Quatar

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« Reply #8 on: <05-06-16/1518:40> »
Yes, that was my thought as well, you lock onto the auras, and if they leave the area it still affects them, if others come in, it doesn't. Was just wondering if there's maybe a rule I didn't see that states differently. Doesn't seem to be the case.

For indirect spells it's obvious. If you walk into the Wall of Fire you get burned, if you step out, you stop burning. Though I'm not even sure there are any indirect sustained area spells.
Physical spells are a bit more iffy I think, but since they can affect objects as well, I usually see them being anchored at a point in space, and radiating out from there, so leaving takes you out of the effect, entering gets you affected.

Hmm, I was always under the impression, once a spell is cast, you can sustain it no matter the distance, you just needed the LOS or Touch for the initial casting.
Also it's Magic x 100 meters for spirit's remote tasks (p302), and I guess it would make sense that sustaining stops there too.

adzling

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« Reply #9 on: <05-06-16/1804:13> »
Thanks, yeah magic x 100 meters is what I meant 😁

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <05-06-16/2238:05> »
I think you guys are mixing up your terms here and confusing yourselves.

As a mana spell, its a direct spell, meaning you have to see the targets in the area. Thus if something is in the area of effect, BUT not sighted by the caster, it is not affected.

(This is where the difference comes in on indirect spells, which hit everything in the area of effect, regardless of if the mage can see it.)

Also keep in mind the area of effect of a sustained spell can be moved. (See CRB).....

So IF the mage can see you and you enter the area of effect, you get affected by the spell. (Like wise, if you can BREAK line of sight, the spell effects end.)

Remember, with mana spells, its Line of Sight rules all.
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The Bald Man

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« Reply #11 on: <05-06-16/2358:16> »
Also keep in mind the area of effect of a sustained spell can be moved. (See CRB).....

So IF the mage can see you and you enter the area of effect, you get affected by the spell. (Like wise, if you can BREAK line of sight, the spell effects end.)

Remember, with mana spells, its Line of Sight rules all.

Help me with an example Reaver.  Imagine a standard 1/4 mile track (like most high schools have around the football field with our caster sitting in the bleachers with an unobstructed view of the track and field.  There are a bunch of people marching around the track - say 200.  Mage casts mob mind, force 6 (more than enough to get the entire width of the track), with the command to march around the track.  By sustaining the spell for however long it takes for everyone to make a full lap the mage would have all 200 people under their control?  At which point they could order the entire 200 person army to do whatever?

On the flip side 1 thermal smoke grenade makes everyone immune to mana spells (as long s the casting mage isn't astrally perceiving)?

Reaver

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« Reply #12 on: <05-07-16/0059:17> »
Also keep in mind the area of effect of a sustained spell can be moved. (See CRB).....

So IF the mage can see you and you enter the area of effect, you get affected by the spell. (Like wise, if you can BREAK line of sight, the spell effects end.)

Remember, with mana spells, its Line of Sight rules all.

Help me with an example Reaver.  Imagine a standard 1/4 mile track (like most high schools have around the football field with our caster sitting in the bleachers with an unobstructed view of the track and field.  There are a bunch of people marching around the track - say 200.  Mage casts mob mind, force 6 (more than enough to get the entire width of the track), with the command to march around the track.  By sustaining the spell for however long it takes for everyone to make a full lap the mage would have all 200 people under their control?  At which point they could order the entire 200 person army to do whatever?

On the flip side 1 thermal smoke grenade makes everyone immune to mana spells (as long s the casting mage isn't astrally perceiving)?

Not sure where you are getting that mob mind fills an entire 200m area (cause that's how I am reading you post. But, I have been drinking, so...)

CRB: 281 the area of effect of an area spell is the Force in meters from its center. (F)meters radius. So a force 6 spell (mob mind) would effect everything within 6 meters of its center spot....
Roughly an area of 38ft. (12meter wide circle).

So, as targets entered this 12meter circle, AND the mage can see them*, they cone under the effects of the spell (in your example, mob mind). And, as they leave this 12meter circle, they come out of the effects.

*note the key here. The mage has to be able to see the target for your mana spell. So someone hidden by an improved Invisibility spell is immune! Unless the caster has some way to defeat this.

** note too that the casting mage could also just move his mob mind spell so that the center of it is always on the center of the marching band, thus affecting the most people at once, if he so choose to.
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

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« Reply #13 on: <05-07-16/0108:45> »
As to the OP buddy question;

I am away from my books ATM but I believe there is a metamagic technique that allows the shaping of hollow spots in an AoE Spell, effectively allowing you to choose targets. (And thus miss your teammate).

Can't remember the name of it for the life of me.... Spell Shaping maybe? Its in the CRB under metamagics.
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Rosa

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« Reply #14 on: <05-07-16/0205:39> »
You do not need LoS to sustain a spell, not even a mana spell. Once the magical link is established thats it, no more need for LoS. However i would agree that someone leaving the area regardless of it being a mana spell or not is no longer affected by the spell, because by it's very nature an area spell is not fixed on a person ( unless it's the caster ) or persons but rather on a point in the Gaiasphere, thus anyone in the area will possibly be subject to the area spells effects no matter if it's physical or mana based, leave said area and you're safe again unless the mage moves the point in the Gaiasphere that the spell is linked to, then you might be in trouble again.

take for example the Mindnet spell from SG, it's mana based and it's an area spell though this one is fixed on the caster. But it states quite clearly that you have to stay in the area to benefit from the spell ( SG page 108 ), on the same page you have the Area Thought recognition spell, it's sustained and it states quite clearly that you scan the surface thoughts of everyone in the area, not just everyone who was present at the time of the casting, but everyone in the area. ( SG p. 108-9 ), for physical spells take [Elemental] wall, quite naturally you take fire damage if you stand in or try to pass through the wall,if you leave the wall, no more damage unless you try to pass it again. ( SG p. 115 ) And if you walk into the ongoing area of a poltergeist spell, you get smacked in the face by whatever is flying around ( SR5 p. 294 ). Forboding which is a mana spell specifically states that anyone entering the area will be affected ( SG p. 112 ). There's also the manabarrier spell, which again affects anyone coming into contact with it.
« Last Edit: <05-07-16/0215:26> by Rosa »