[KoD]

So if you wear the Milspec Helmet armor accessory from run and gun, do the +3 points count as hardened armor? And does it benefit from the features listed under Milspec armor? I would assume that the answers are yes and no respectively, while it makes sense for the helmet to act as hardened it makes very little for it to have most of the features like gear access or restrictive, I mean, a helmet with great pockets that make you run slower is a tad silly.

[Marcus Gideon]

Yes, the +3 counts as Hardened Armor, but only b/c it's being used with the rest of the outfit. You cannot just go out and purchase that helmet, and wear it with your Leather Jacket, expecting to get AC 12 from the jacket and +3 Hardened from the helmet. You can buy the armor with or without a helmet, but you cannot buy just the helmet.

Same goes for the features. Those apply to the entire outfit, whether or not you get the helmet.

[Jack_Spade]

To be specific: The helmet has its own capacity for stuff. If you wanted you could give it Gear Access for 4 points, but really, that would look really odd 

[KoD]

Yes, the +3 counts as Hardened Armor, but only b/c it's being used with the rest of the outfit. You cannot just go out and purchase that helmet, and wear it with your Leather Jacket, expecting to get AC 12 from the jacket and +3 Hardened from the helmet. You can buy the armor with or without a helmet, but you cannot buy just the helmet.

Same goes for the features. Those apply to the entire outfit, whether or not you get the helmet.

Thats the thing, as near as I can tell from the way its written, you can actually buy it on its own. Now there is a line stipulating that you cant combine any armor with Milspec, with the exception of the helmet and stuff bought with essence, which can be interpreted to mean you also cant cant combine any armor with the helmet, but that line of reasoning leads to the idea that the helmet stacks with the rest of Milspec but the rest of Milspec doesnt stack with the helmet, and that, this is the best part, the helmet stacks with the helmet, super stupidity that way lies.

What I cant find, before I even get to its eligibility to stack with other armor, is whether or not the helmet counts as hardened on its own, because by all readings of the rules you can if nothing else buy the helmet and run around in nothing but it and a pair of boxers, beating people to death with a length of pipe like some kind of strung out savage. Now Im totally down with it not working that way, and the only Shadowrun GM I currently have access to right now is likely to rule that way regardless of the official rules, but the curiosity in me demands I find out if it actually is an option.

To be specific: The helmet has its own capacity for stuff. If you wanted you could give it Gear Access for 4 points, but really, that would look really odd 

I'm imagining its just covered in velcro or something, technically works, but looks stupid as hell and is likely to get you picked on by all the other runners.

[Marcus Gideon]

Yes, the +3 counts as Hardened Armor, but only b/c it's being used with the rest of the outfit. You cannot just go out and purchase that helmet, and wear it with your Leather Jacket, expecting to get AC 12 from the jacket and +3 Hardened from the helmet. You can buy the armor with or without a helmet, but you cannot buy just the helmet.

Same goes for the features. Those apply to the entire outfit, whether or not you get the helmet.

Thats the thing, as near as I can tell from the way its written, you can actually buy it on its own. Now there is a line stipulating that you cant combine any armor with Milspec, with the exception of the helmet and stuff bought with essence, which can be interpreted to mean you also cant cant combine any armor with the helmet, but that line of reasoning leads to the idea that the helmet stacks with the rest of Milspec but the rest of Milspec doesnt stack with the helmet, and that, this is the best part, the helmet stacks with the helmet, super stupidity that way lies.

What I cant find, before I even get to its eligibility to stack with other armor, is whether or not the helmet counts as hardened on its own, because by all readings of the rules you can if nothing else buy the helmet and run around in nothing but it and a pair of boxers, beating people to death with a length of pipe like some kind of strung out savage. Now Im totally down with it not working that way, and the only Shadowrun GM I currently have access to right now is likely to rule that way regardless of the official rules, but the curiosity in me demands I find out if it actually is an option.

Take a look at Core pg 436 and then pg 438.

First they list the "Full Body Armor" outfit, which includes the options for a Full Helmet with +3 Armor for +500¥.

Then they list Helmets and Shields separately in a different area, +2 Armor, for 100¥.

The helmet listed with the Full Body Armor is only for that outfit. It's not something you buy separately. Same thing here, you are buying the Milspec armor, with the option to add a helmet or not. But you cannot purchase the helmet by itself and just wear that around.

Once you accept that, the question of functions becomes moot. Does the helmet need Gear Access? No, b/c that's something that applies to wearing a suit of armor, not a helmet. Unless you specifically want to pay extra for easy nose picking access, it's not applicable. Helmets have capacity to support helmet things, like vision and audio enhancements. The rest of the outfit traits would be inherited from the rest of the outfit, b/c it's all one big complete outfit.

[MijRai]

There is nothing that says you can't buy the helmet alone.  It has an individual price (and isn't factored into the Full Milspec/Security Armor), which obviously shows it can be acquired by itself. 

It makes sense, really.  The helmet is the most probable piece of armor you can lose, so making them an individual piece you can replace is a good idea.  If you're rich enough, you could have multiple helmets with different enhancements (or other toys, perhaps a Flask-Pack to disorient someone in a pinch?) in them for various situations.  It is also a surcharge on top of the nuyen you need to put a Chemical Seal into said armor. 

That said, I wouldn't let the helmet give Hardened Armor when not worn with another set of Hardened Armor.  It'd still be a +3 Helmet with plenty of Capacity, which makes it nice, but not 'my helmet protects me from all scrapes and abrasions!'  As far as Gear Access though, I'd say sure...  If you can find items generally stored on a helmet.  You ain't strapping a magazine to your cheek.  Maybe some entrepreneurial 'runner or merc keeps his business card in a strap on his helmet, instead of the usual card from the classic deck? 

P.S.  Obviously it is all the soft-side velcro, covering the jaw, cheeks, chin and upper lip.  The helmet is so manly it has a beard, no exceptions. 

[gradivus]

While I agree that you could find the helmet by itself...unless it's a called shot to the head, nope, I ain't giving you hardened armor. Nope, no rule reference whatsoever- just my own sense of what should/shouldn't work. Again, before you try arguing against my argument, it is PURE opinion by yours truly and not a valid argument.

[KoD]

Take a look at Core pg 436 and then pg 438.

First they list the "Full Body Armor" outfit, which includes the options for a Full Helmet with +3 Armor for +500¥.

Then they list Helmets and Shields separately in a different area, +2 Armor, for 100¥.

The helmet listed with the Full Body Armor is only for that outfit. It's not something you buy separately. Same thing here, you are buying the Milspec armor, with the option to add a helmet or not. But you cannot purchase the helmet by itself and just wear that around.

Once you accept that, the question of functions becomes moot. Does the helmet need Gear Access? No, b/c that's something that applies to wearing a suit of armor, not a helmet. Unless you specifically want to pay extra for easy nose picking access, it's not applicable. Helmets have capacity to support helmet things, like vision and audio enhancements. The rest of the outfit traits would be inherited from the rest of the outfit, b/c it's all one big complete outfit.

The two entries are actually rather different, Full Body Armor has it listed as no Availability, +500 nuyen and is indented underneath the armor itself, all things that indicate they are a package deal. The Milspec option however, has its own availability, its price is a standalone one rather than an additive, and it isn't in any way shown as not a singular option in of itself like the other one was with the indenting. Hell, from a strict reading of the rules, you cant buy Milspec with a helmet at all, they're two separate purchases without the option to combine.

You can make the argument that your interpretation of those two things is how the rules were meant to be and it was just a bit poorly laid out, god knows that is a crime all rpgs have been guilty off before and Shadowrun is no exception, but then you run in to the point Mijrai was making. Why cant you buy an individual helmet other than for the artificial reason of because the book says no, when all in world signs point to yes, if I walked up to an arms dealer with 50k and said I needed a new helmet spare no expense, he would give me that helmet and happily take my money rather than saying sorry, no can do cause the book says so.

P.S.  Obviously it is all the soft-side velcro, covering the jaw, cheeks, chin and upper lip.  The helmet is so manly it has a beard, no exceptions.

World star post omae, best part of the thread so far.

While I agree that you could find the helmet by itself...unless it's a called shot to the head, nope, I ain't giving you hardened armor. Nope, no rule reference whatsoever- just my own sense of what should/shouldn't work. Again, before you try arguing against my argument, it is PURE opinion by yours truly and not a valid argument.

Yeah, that is by far the sanest of rulings we can take from this, still useful, but situational as. Don't know if Id pay 10k for one though.

[gradivus]

A guy with a cyber torso, 2 cyberarms, two cyberlegs and a helmet...
just make sure it's all black metal and we're all good.

And when he takes off the helmet he suffer's the penalty for faceless- did you see how old and crusty he was. If that's not a reason to hide your face in public, I don't know what is.