[Bull]

As it would take 34.5k to fix one box of damage on my Sony CIY-720, it would take damn near all of DragonCon to get that one box fixed, given the absurdly low payouts.

It would be great if repair stayed the same, but I have no faith that it will.

Time for a troll physad with a MetaLink and a chunk of rebar.

Sad really.

No faith here.  So sad

Anyways, starting up a new thread for some discussion here.  I'll be honest, with the Missions pay scale, those repair costs are kind of insane.  They make a certain degree of sense (As someone who drives for a living and pays his own car maintenance and repairs, they make a LOT of sense).  But...  yeah.  They would seriously hamper certain characters and would really beef up the "Magicrun" game, which I don't want to see happen (I like a solid balance between magic and tech).

So first off, chances are now that we have official repair costs, we will probably revamp the rules.  However, I'm thinking of doing a couple things, because I'd like characters to be able to use their skills and contacts here. Now this here is me spitballing, and nothing is set in stone.  I'll talk with some of the other Missions writers, SR Freelancers, Missions GMs, and most importantly Jason to make the final decisions, but I don't mind a little discussion and opinion.  Just keep it civil and sane.

So...

1)  Baseline repair costs stay as they are in R&G.  Brutal, but within reason.  This represents you taking your gear into "the shop", whether it's a n actual mechanic/repair shop or a black market/underground repair shop.  Either way, they're gouging you.

2)  If you have the proper mechanic as a contact (Mechanic for vehicles, Armorer/Gunsmith for Guns and Armor, Deckmeister for Cyberdeck/RCC/Electronics, and Cyberdoc/Street Doc for Cyberware), you can take your gear to them for repairs at a discount off the total repair cost of 10% per point of Loyalty you have with them.  THe contact is unavailable for that week to provide any other services for you.

3) If you have the skill (Armorer for Guns and Armor, Hardware for Cyebrdecks/RCCs/Electronics,  Cybertechnology for cyberware, and the appropriate Mechanic skill for the various vehicles) and the proper tools (Kit for up to 3 boxes of damage, shop for up to 6 boxes of damage, and facility for 7+ boxes of damage), you can repair it yourself, reducing the total cost of repairs by 10% per point of skill you have (To a maximum of a 90% discount).

Example:  Bull is repairing his beloved cyberdeck that he wears strapped to his arm after foolishly using it to shield himself from a rabid awakened woodchuck, and it sustained 8 boxes of damage.  He has a Hardware Facility and a Hardware skill of 7.  His Cyberdeck is worth a cool 1,000,000¥, so the base cost of repairs is 800,000¥!  His skill of 7 gives him a discount of 70%, which reduces the repair cost to a mere 240,000¥. With a sigh, he dips into his saving and cancels the family trip to Aruba, knowing his wife will chew him out when he gets home.

This helps quite a bit, in my opinion, though repairs can still be pretty rough.  It does give an incentive to buy up repair skills though, or know some really good contacts.  (And for Season 5, Goober would count as both an Armorer and a Mechanic, Quantum Princess can act as a Deckmeister, and Dr. Tate is a cyberdoc, though they cap out at Loyalty 4, so they're only good for up to 40% off).

[martinchaen]

No offense, Bull, that doesn't help for the vast majority of repairs for riggers and deckers.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort you're putting forth with this topic, but 10% of base cost per box is just absolutely bonkers, even with a discount like you propose in 2 and 3.

Short of changing the repair costs back to 1% as it was in 4th, which is how we'll be playing it in our home game, that balance you're talking about just isn't there the way I see it.

Essentially, given the lack of hardened armor for vehicles and a 10% repair cost (not to mention the severe lack of clear rules for riggers to begin with in 5th) has completely turned me off playing a rigger in any game where the official, unmodified rules are being used. Not saying it can't be done, and I hope I don't come across as too much of a complainer, but the motivation for me just isn't there given it would be more of an uphill battle than an enjoyable experience as far as I can tell.

[Vulture]

The main problem I see with the repair rules is this.  If I am a tech archetype I require Nuyen to improve, if I am a mage type I need Karma.  As a mage, when I am damaged I just spend time to heal, and no karma - thus no impact on my progression.  However, as a tech guy I have to spend Nuyen to repair/heal, and this directly impacts my ability to progress.  Here are a few ideas to close that gap.

First, repair costs should not be based on full cost.  It's not how it works today, and won't be that way in the future.  Parts are far cheaper than the full cost of a vehicle.  So I would propose the basis for any cost calculation should be the selling price of an item.  In missions, this is 30% of purchase price.  So repair basis, as a minimum, should be % of 30% of cost.

So going with all of Bull's suggestions above of going to a garage - start with 30% rather than full.

But lets go a few steps further.  As a rigger/decker/etc I have an added cost of 1000 nuyen to my lifestyle to add a workshop/garage.  That would be a lot for just a room, so it must include some basic supplies - solder, paint, tools, etc.  If we make the assumption that a lot of damage will be repairable with basic parts - bondo, duct tape, some paint, etc.  Then most boxes should be repairable with skill, and should be time spent with no added cost - you're already paying it in lifestyle.  Provided you have the appropriate repair skills, of course. Some extended test with threshold boxes of damage, duration 1 day. (Or using a contact with limit being Loyalty for boxes repairable, once per damage - like a heal spell )

However, life on the streets is never that easy, chummer.  Sometimes tech takes a big hit.  This can be represented by when the damage track passes a dice pool modifier.  Each one of these can be treated just as Bull laid out above, except price is against 30% of cost * 10% per dice pool modifier, and attempts to reduce cost based on those skills and/or contacts.  This is trying to find replacement parts.

Added to the last, I would suggest adding a new "Working for" category.  Something like "Working for the Machine."  The way it can work is you spend a week doing nothing but going to junkyards, chop shops, scrap heaps, dumpster diving, etc looking for parts.  Based on appropriate repair skill(s) with Limit of Negotiation skill, they can get parts to repair the dice pool modifers.  This is your ability to spot parts amid junk and negotiate/barter/perform task in trade for them. Can only do once between a mission, and any unrepaired modifiers carry over.  So while rotodrone might have a "clean" damage track, some systems are damaged so it gets a -X dice pool mod for the unrepaired.

Time spent is an indirect cost - the longer down times mean you are spending more on your lifestyle.  Which makes sense.  It also adds in the capability of using your skills to repair or find replacements.

Some qualities like Juryrigging and Gearhead might apply here, too.

[Vulture]

Of course I get another idea just after posting...
Another idea might be instead of carrying over unrepaired dice pool modifiers, the vehicle gets the Gremlins Quality with a level equal to the unrepaired dice pool modifiers (cumulative, of course ).  While structurally repaired, these unrepaired systems can have unexpected results... at the most inopportune time, of course.

[tequila]

Would the PCs and Contacts have to buy hits for the repair test or could one or both actually make the rolls in game?

[Swampgator]

A 1% repair cost is still steep for Techies vs other Archetypes, but within the realm of reason. That would be 3.45k to fix one box on a Sony CIY. Painful on Missions pay, but doable. At least for a few boxes.

[The Masked Ferret]

2)  If you have the proper mechanic as a contact (Mechanic for vehicles, Armorer/Gunsmith for Guns and Armor, Deckmeister for Cyberdeck/RCC/Electronics, and Cyberdoc/Street Doc for Cyberware), you can take your gear to them for repairs at a discount off the total repair cost of 10% per point of Loyalty you have with them.  The contact is unavailable for that week to provide any other services for you.

So, this would effectively limit a contact discount to 60%

[Dinendae]

Something to keep in mind is that repair costs are for physical damage only, and Street Grimoire has a spell (called, appropriately enough, Fix) that fixes physical damage on tech (S.G. P116). You have to get enough hits to beat the object resistance test, and it repairs one point of structure of one box per hit. Unfortunately, you can only ever use the spell on that items once.

[tequila]

I am seriously considering picking that up.  Unfortunately, we can't use that in SRM until 30-days after the Street Grimoire's street date.

[Dinendae]

I am seriously considering picking that up.  Unfortunately, we can't use that in SRM until 30-days after the Street Grimoire's street date.

There is also a weight limit (2xF, if I remember correctly). Normally it would preclude things like vehicles, but like the description pointed out, you wouldn't be repairing the entire vehicle, just the particular part that was damaged (wheel, driver's side window, etc.). Whether just that part would be considered for one time only clause, or the entire vehicle the GM would have to decide (and Bull, for Missions games).

[firebug]

A once-per-vehicle thing is a really strict restriction...  It almost makes me wonder why it exists.  Who created it?  I doubt any corp teaches it to their wagemages since they can't use it on the same vehicle/drone twice.

I mean, I suppose it's better than having one spell make a chunk of a rigger's skillset totally useless, but still.

[Fedifensor]

None of this would be necessary if the rules were errataed to a more reasonable cost.  If there's a way to put that request through official channels, I'd prefer that to a house rule for Missions.

[Wasabi]

Is it legal to repair for others between missions?

I ask because an Adept with Improved Ability 3 in weapons/groundcraft/decks with resources enough for 3 facilities might could make some money if there is a SRM legal way to handle those transactions. I mainly play at conventions so its not like an SRM GM would be hard to find and they are usually a nice enough lot if players wait til their free they are amenable to things like that.... if legal.

Is there a Missions-legal way to do this as a business to other/willing characters?

[Belker]

Is it legal to repair for others between missions?

I ask because an Adept with Improved Ability 3 in weapons/groundcraft/decks with resources enough for 3 facilities might could make some money if there is a SRM legal way to handle those transactions. I mainly play at conventions so its not like an SRM GM would be hard to find and they are usually a nice enough lot if players wait til their free they are amenable to things like that.... if legal.

Is there a Missions-legal way to do this as a business to other/willing characters?

The short version is no. If you're running a repair business, you're not a shadowrunner, at least in terms of Misions. In game terms, you'd be taking something akin to the "Day Job" quality from 4th edition, which was not Missions-legal; I expect whatever follows for 5th will be handled likewise.

[Belker]

I've now read through your proposed change and you really aren't addressing the cost issues at all. Keeping the repair costs at 10% per box of damage means you will take a decker out of the game if his deck is badly damaged; they simply aren't making enough money in the Missions, even with karma-for-nuyen. Ditto for riggers & smugglers with their vehicles. Drones are already incredibly fragile and expensive; keeping these costs will cripple them as well.

And cyberware? Wired Reflexes 2 is 149,000 nuyen. It's entirely possible for a well-built decker or technomancer to brick that in a single shot, and easily done in two. A character that has run the entire set of CMPs (2013 and 2013), all the Season 5 Missions released to date, *and* the Sprawl Wilds and Firing Line Missions still won't have enough the funds to replace that; she'll have had lifestyle costs if nothing else.

The balance right now is really strongly in favor of the Awakened versus the tech-based characters; the repair costs from Run & Gun just make it more so.