Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Nobodi99 on <11-13-10/0742:29>
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Dear Shadowrun Community,
after playing Shadowrun for a few months now I'm loosing the will to look through most of the books to find what Skill/Attribute is needed to do a special task.
Because of that I wanted to ask if someone has an overview of the most common tasks and what I need to perform them (such as Agility + Pistols to shoot or something...)
I would be really happy if someone can provide such a list for me because I totally need it.
Greetings, Nobodi
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Here ya go, Nobodi. (http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/) Perhaps the cheat sheets will help you keep your stuff together.
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Also bear in mind that a lot of them are more or less self explanatory and you can just kinda make up what to roll on the fly (if you're the GM) during game, and then look up what it should have been later on. So long as you're consistent, you will get the hang of it over time. ;)
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It might be a good idea to note stuff on you character sheet. For example you can always note things down like this:
Pistols [AGI]: X
To use it you know to use X dice plus the number equal to you agility without having to look it up. Five minutes extra put into character creation for alot of save time you don't need to search the books.
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Most of the character sheets do include a space to write in the linked attribute. Of course, then you have the confused player who didn't read everything in the Wireless chapter that is adding Data Search + Logic + Browse to look up info on a clue. . . so sometimes that bites you in the rear.
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I'm still to this day trying to figure out a way to make logic actually be useful to hackers. Or preferentially even necessary. Makes no sense that you can be the best hacker ever with a logic of 1 - so long as you max your skills and programs.
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I'm still to this day trying to figure out a way to make logic actually be useful to hackers. Or preferentially even necessary. Makes no sense that you can be the best hacker ever with a logic of 1 - so long as you max your skills and programs.
... replace the program or complex form in each Success, Opposed or Extended Test with the appropriate attribute (usually Logic). The maximum number of hits (not net hits) that can be generated by each Matrix Test is limited to the rating of the program or complex form in a manner similar to the way Spellcasting hits are limiited by the Force of a spell (see Force, p. 118). Agents, IC, and sprites would use their Pilot rating in place of the attribute required.
Alternatively, the various Matrix Tests can remain unchanged. Instead, the attribute (again, usually Logic) limits the hits (not net hits) of every test in the same manner described above. In either case, each Matrix Action requires the use of the appropriate program.
I like both of these solutions, but prefer the first for two reasons:
1) Consistent with the rules of almost every other check in the game.
2) A smart person, even with little skill, can code. It just might take longer. An idiot can't code, no matter how good his compiler is. Or, if you prefer, a degree in graphic arts isn't based on whether you use Paintshop, Photoshop, or MS Paint. Though this may limit your end-product somewhat.
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Eh, I'm not fond of linking all computery stuff to Logic, especially hacking stuff. Intuition is arguably just as important, especially for the "on the fly" stuff.
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Eh, I'm not fond of linking all computery stuff to Logic, especially hacking stuff. Intuition is arguably just as important, especially for the "on the fly" stuff.
This is very true, I just find it exceedingly odd that it's more or less the only place in the game where people don't roll an attribute for said tasks. Pretty darn near everything else in the entire game is "Attribute + Skill".
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Skillwires are Attribute + Program, hacking is Program + Skill. ;)
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I'm still to this day trying to figure out a way to make logic actually be useful to hackers. Or preferentially even necessary. Makes no sense that you can be the best hacker ever with a logic of 1 - so long as you max your skills and programs.
... replace the program or complex form in each Success, Opposed or Extended Test with the appropriate attribute (usually Logic). The maximum number of hits (not net hits) that can be generated by each Matrix Test is limited to the rating of the program or complex form in a manner similar to the way Spellcasting hits are limiited by the Force of a spell (see Force, p. 118). Agents, IC, and sprites would use their Pilot rating in place of the attribute required.
Alternatively, the various Matrix Tests can remain unchanged. Instead, the attribute (again, usually Logic) limits the hits (not net hits) of every test in the same manner described above. In either case, each Matrix Action requires the use of the appropriate program.
I like both of these solutions, but prefer the first for two reasons:
1) Consistent with the rules of almost every other check in the game.
2) A smart person, even with little skill, can code. It just might take longer. An idiot can't code, no matter how good his compiler is. Or, if you prefer, a degree in graphic arts isn't based on whether you use Paintshop, Photoshop, or MS Paint. Though this may limit your end-product somewhat.
I had forgotten about that optional bit. I seem to recall bringing it up in a thread here a while back and got shot down for liking it. Oh well. That's why they're optional.
Anyway...
/thread jack (sorry)
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Skillwires are Attribute + Program, hacking is Program + Skill. ;)
Yea, but in that case the program is the skill, so it still follows suit. ;D
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And in the latter case, the program is the attribute!
Unless you use hacking activesofts. Then you've got Program + Program. ;)
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I'll have to agree to disagree, I just don't see it that way. In my mind, you should never be able to replace an Attribute, that's kind of the point of having them in my mind. The idea being that attributes are the thing that defines your base abilities, it's the idea that the concept of defaulting is based on. Skills are learned through experience and practice, attributes are inherent. So the idea of a skillsoft being loaded is equivalent to uploading a bunch of raw data into your brain, which is feasible. Even muscle memory could be defined as raw data fairly easily because of how the brain stores that type of information. But the idea of replacing your raw natural ability to use and understand technology with just a bunch of data just doesn't fly with my interpretation of how the system works, or my understanding of how the human brain functions. Obviously other interpretations are perfectly valid, but implying that a cluster of a few dozen programs (including "Stealth", "ECCM", "Edit", etc.) is equivalent to a persons ability to use a computer just makes no sense to me. Maybe if you explain what you meant by that a little more I might be able to rationalize it a wee bit, but as it stands I just flat out disagree.
Unless you were just being glib with that whole "programs are attributes" thing, in which case --> "well played". ;)
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Well that pretty much is the game rationale for it: Your programs really are your Matrix attributes. The Matrix has a lot of analogues with the Astral, and this is one of them. In astral projection, you no longer use your physical attributes. In virtual reality, you no longer use your mental attributes. In both cases, the rules of the alternate reality require different "attributes." On the Astral, you use mental attributes instead. In the Matrix, you use software.
Oh, and don't forget that you can even replace your attributes in the real world, with 'ware like cyberlimbs. I don't see attributes as fundamental, but more like very broad skill groups. Not many things can cover the same scope, but in limited situations (like tracing a signal or lifting something heavy) you can cover them just fine.
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Yea, I suppose there is a certain rationale there... hmmm. Think I'll ruminate on it a bit. ;)
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Oh, and don't forget that you can even replace your attributes in the real world, with 'ware like cyberlimbs. I don't see attributes as fundamental, but more like very broad skill groups. Not many things can cover the same scope, but in limited situations (like tracing a signal or lifting something heavy) you can cover them just fine.
You're not replacing your "attributes", you're replacing your natural, born/developed attributes with those of a piece of plastic. :P
You still roll Running + Strength or Pistols + Agility. It's simply a question of where the Strength and Agility come from. Even in the Astral, you still have these attributes, but again, they just come from a different source (Agility = Logic, Body = Willpower, etc. Page 192, SR4A) so you still, technically roll your physical attribute (though for clarity, they may simply refer you to the mental attribute that it has been set equal to).
So, the only time you don't use attributes is still the Matrix, where you use programs instead. Am I bent out of shape over it? No. But it does downplay the character a decent bit. A full-VR hacker could get away with Logic 1, Intuition 1, Willpower 1 and be just as good at hacking as someone with the same programs but Logic, Intuition and Willpower at 6 each.
No perfect solution, and there doesn't need to be one, but there isn't any comparison between Cyberlimbs, the Astral, and the 'Trix in terms of how skill tests are performed.
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I think it's quite analogous to using a cyberlimb, though. Just as you use cyberlimb strength instead of normal strength when punching something, you use program logic instead of normal logic to hack on the fly.
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I see what you're getting at, and it's a workable analogy, up to a point. However, it's not called "program logic", it's called "program rating" whereas it's not called "cyberlimb rating" it's called "cyberlimb strength rating".
It's 1 to 1 for cyberlimbs, not so for programs. You could claim that it's implied or implicit, except that the dev team themselves say that it isn't in any way implied. Otherwise there wouldn't be a pair of optional rules that explicitly talk about "making attributes relevant".
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It's called cyberlimb Strength rating to differentiate from cyberlimb Agility rating, etc. There's no analogue for programs because they always substitute for Logic.
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It's called cyberlimb Strength rating to differentiate from cyberlimb Agility rating, etc. There's no analogue for programs because they always substitute for Logic.
See the part where the dev team disagrees with this analogy by talking about "bringing attributes back to the matrix", page 226 of SR4A. Clearly, the intention is not for your program rating to be a "stand in" in the same manner that a cyberlimb stands-in for your str/agi/bod or willpower stands in for agility in the astral. If it were, they would say as much, rather than saying "In Matrix tests, the attribute portion of the test is replaced with a program or Matrix attribute" (SR4A, pg. 226).
And before you call "gotcha" on the part where it says "Matrix Attribute", I defer to the section titled "Matrix Attributes" which defines them as Firewall, Response, Signal, System and Device Rating (SR4A, pg. 221, 222).
I don't intend to be argumentative, I just think it's misleading to say a program is analogous to a cyberlimb / astral attribute where one substitutes for the other. The RAW is very clear that you use programs in lieu of attributes. You don't use cyberlimbs in lieu of attributes. cyberlimbs grant new ratings to those attributes. Perhaps I'm being picky about word choice, but I've seen too many occasions where a small change in interpretations has led to a massive change in implementation, both in games and the real world.
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Here ya go, Nobodi. (http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/) Perhaps the cheat sheets will help you keep your stuff together.
FastJack that's a great link, as someone recently restarting the Shadowrun RPG you have my thanks! If I may, I jumped quickly through several of them and naturally stopped on the Mage's Spellcasting link. It mentioned something about saving dice for drain, however I have been unsuccessful in finding information in the Foci area of SR4a about that. Looking at the Spellcasting Focus and the Power Focus, I didn't see mention of the ability to hold dice from the Spellcasting Test and using them instead in the Drain Test. Would you or anyone else have information on where this is?
Thanks!
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Unfortunately, that looks like it's a mistake on Aaron's part.
In SR4, can you withhold dice from a Sorcery or Spellcasting Test and use those dice instead to resist Drain, as you could in SR3?
This rule was dropped in SR4—it was a special case rule that didn't apply to any other mechanics in the game. If you happen to like it, you can of course continue to use it in your own games as a house rule. The entry for the Spellcasting Focus in SR4 had an incorrect reference to this rule that was corrected in SR4A.
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There are optional rules in Unwired for tying Logic back into Hacking, but they are all pretty harsh. The one limiting hits to your Logic is even prohibitive at logic 5 when you start rolling 6 skill 6 program 2 hotsim and 1-3 from drugs and implants.
Logic is used in certain real world applications of hacking skills, like Hardware+Logic to defeat a maglock. While its not really enough to stop Logic 1 hackers it is something.
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@Chaemera: I do think that's overly picky. In all cases, it's "use X in lieu of attributes." Sometimes X is other attributes, sometimes it's device ratings, sometimes it's program ratings, sometimes it's cyberlimb attributes.
Note the explanation leading up to the rule that you quoted:
In the Matrix, you leave your meat body behind and surf the wireless
world with your mind, your intellect, and the programs you carry. Your
attributes take a back seat to the programs (or complex forms) you run.
Even Mental attributes like Logic are feeble before a three-million-to-
one-or-better speed advantage and the need to compute thousands of
operations with every action taken. Ultimately your mind is simply
commanding your software and hardware to do things. You’re only as
good as the programs and systems you use.
Compare that to a cyberlimb, where your mind is likewise commanding your software and hardware to do things.
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@Chaemera: I do think that's overly picky. In all cases, it's "use X in lieu of attributes." Sometimes X is other attributes, sometimes it's device ratings, sometimes it's program ratings, sometimes it's cyberlimb attributes.
Note the explanation leading up to the rule that you quoted:
In the Matrix, you leave your meat body behind and surf the wireless
world with your mind, your intellect, and the programs you carry. Your
attributes take a back seat to the programs (or complex forms) you run.
Even Mental attributes like Logic are feeble before a three-million-to-
one-or-better speed advantage and the need to compute thousands of
operations with every action taken. Ultimately your mind is simply
commanding your software and hardware to do things. You’re only as
good as the programs and systems you use.
Compare that to a cyberlimb, where your mind is likewise commanding your software and hardware to do things.
Let's look at the most obvious case of where this concept breaks down. Look at the Edit action on page 230. In a complex action, you can alter a second of video or audio. And your Computer + Edit test determines the quality of the change, the extent, and the complexity. So, a person with 1 Logic, 1 Intuition, 0 Artisan, 4 Computer and 6 Edit in HotSim VR can work as a professional CG artist.
The same can be said for RPG Game Designers with the RAW, Logic 1, Intuition 1, Artisan 0, Gaming Rules Knowledge 0, Publications Formating Knowledge 0, Computer 4, Edit 6, HotSim VR and you have Shadowrun 12th Edition.
You cut off my leg and I get a cyberlimb to replace it? Okay, using the cyberleg makes sense. I log into a computer and my understanding of reality is now meaningless because programs can create better art than I can? No, sorry, that doesn't pass the common sense test. I agree that it's RAW, it just doesn't make sense and is the only case where there isn't a good reason why you suddenly ignore your attributes.
As I said previously, and you haven't countered, in every other case where you don't use your "natural" attribute, it is because something has, for a logical reason, replaced it. This is the one case where they say anything like "computers are fast, so ignore your attributes and use programs instead".
Is it a big enough deal to house-rule it? That's for each table to decide. But, no, programs are not analogous to cyberlimbs. I don't have to cut off my brain to access the matrix.
Furthermore, if the matrix "speed advantage" is so great that a person's logic is "feeble" (ignore the fact that we wish computers were as fast as the mind and we are slamming hard into computer speed barriers set by the laws of physics), then how is it you're able to make logical decisions? It is contradictory to say that, on the one hand, interactions on the matrix are perceivable by the human mind in a way that rationale decision making is possible and then say that, because the matrix is so fast that same rationale decision making process is no longer applicable when it comes time to roll the dice. By that reasoning, every user needs a Pilot program to decide how to behave, their mind can't keep up with the matrix.
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Let's look at the most obvious case of where this concept breaks down. Look at the Edit action on page 230. In a complex action, you can alter a second of video or audio. And your Computer + Edit test determines the quality of the change, the extent, and the complexity. So, a person with 1 Logic, 1 Intuition, 0 Artisan, 4 Computer and 6 Edit in HotSim VR can work as a professional CG artist.
But I wouldn't use a Computer + Edit test to resolve that, just like I wouldn't use it to resolve computer programming (Software + Logic). The editor is your tool, it's secondary to what you're actually doing. I don't think the problem here is replacing attributes, it's trying to apply Edit beyond what it's intended for.
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Let's look at the most obvious case of where this concept breaks down. Look at the Edit action on page 230. In a complex action, you can alter a second of video or audio. And your Computer + Edit test determines the quality of the change, the extent, and the complexity. So, a person with 1 Logic, 1 Intuition, 0 Artisan, 4 Computer and 6 Edit in HotSim VR can work as a professional CG artist.
But I wouldn't use a Computer + Edit test to resolve that, just like I wouldn't use it to resolve computer programming (Software + Logic). The editor is your tool, it's secondary to what you're actually doing. I don't think the problem here is replacing attributes, it's trying to apply Edit beyond what it's intended for.
My issue is with the RAW, and thank you for proving my point. Per the RAW, the action to edit a file (in any way shape or form) is the Edit action, defined on page 230 of SR4A as Computer + Edit, hits determine complexity and quality.
Yes, they opt-out computer programming from their rules, but that's an exemption granted to the specific case of computer programming. The RAW stipulates, explicitly, that any (non-exempted by a special case) file editing is purely governed by Computer + Edit.
It seems silly, and pointless, to argue that computer programming should be a test involving your logic, but file editing (of which, computer programming is a subset), hacking, data analysis, data search, observation, signal jamming, all pretend that your natural ability to intuitively determine or logically deduce a solution are irrelevant. Especially given the contradiction I pointed out that the matrix is slow enough for you to make rationale decisions, but fast enough that your logic is "feeble" and irrelevant.
Personally, I like the optional rule of Skill + Attribute, hits limited by your program (since programs are important, you can't do as good a job in MS Paint as you can with Photoshop). This is far more consistent with both reality and the rest of the rules systems in the game.
EDIT
There is, however, the problem that if you use this optional rule, you seriously upset the technomancer (threading becomes notably weaker, since it just raises your cap, not your DP).
Due to the unpredicted consequences of implementing this as a house rule, I don't know what the best solution to marry common sense & consistency back to the RAW for Matrix tests would be.
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Per the RAW, the action to edit a file (in any way shape or form) is the Edit action, defined on page 230 of SR4A as Computer + Edit, hits determine complexity and quality.
Yes, they opt-out computer programming from their rules, but that's an exemption granted to the specific case of computer programming. The RAW stipulates, explicitly, that any (non-exempted by a special case) file editing is purely governed by Computer + Edit.
The Computer + Edit test only covers the tool use per se. When you're trying to do something covered by another skill, it's a complementary skill: You roll both checks and use the lower result. There's a concrete example in the rules for Forgery, but it applies equally well to things like Artisan. The end result is that when you do stuff like digital art, it matters whether you're using Paint or Photoshop and how good you are with the tools and how good you are at art.
(And please avoid stuff like "thank you for proving my point," it puts people on the defensive, plus it looks foolish if you turn out to be wrong.)
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Per the RAW, the action to edit a file (in any way shape or form) is the Edit action, defined on page 230 of SR4A as Computer + Edit, hits determine complexity and quality.
Yes, they opt-out computer programming from their rules, but that's an exemption granted to the specific case of computer programming. The RAW stipulates, explicitly, that any (non-exempted by a special case) file editing is purely governed by Computer + Edit.
The Computer + Edit test only covers the tool use per se. When you're trying to do something covered by another skill, it's a complementary skill: You roll both checks and use the lower result. There's a concrete example in the rules for Forgery, but it applies equally well to things like Artisan. The end result is that when you do stuff like digital art, it matters whether you're using Paint or Photoshop and how good you are with the tools and how good you are at art.
(And please avoid stuff like "thank you for proving my point," it puts people on the defensive, plus it looks foolish if you turn out to be wrong.)
You are right that there are other sections of the rules for other skills where the issue of complementary skills comes up. This would be an excellent solution to the Edit example. However, it's also unsupported by the RAW, which is what we're discussing. It would be nice if the rules for Edit said something to the effect of "when editing a photo, you make a secondary Artisan roll". They don't, and there is no general rule for an action where two skills apply. By the RAW, when you use the Edit action, your hits determine how high quality your alteration to the photo are. Period, that's it as far as the RAW is concerned, unless you want to show me a relevant page reference for the Edit program.
More to the point at hand, this was intended as an extreme example of how the system breaks down. The problem is just as relevant that a person with Hacking 4, Exploit 6, Logic 1, Intuition 1, Computer System Knowledge 0, etc is as good a hacker as someone who has Logic 6, Intuition 6 (when you follow the RAW). If you ignore people's attributes, idiots suddenly become the most effective hackers because they can spend all their BP on better hardware/software instead of the Logic and Intuition attributes (I know Intuition rarely comes up, that's a gripe for another day).
Honestly, though, it also occurs to me that we've hijacked this thread very thoroughly and for quite some time. It might be best to agree to disagree and leave the thread alone.
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Well, it is relevant to the OP as to which skills+attributes you use for a computer-aided task. And the RAW do say that you make an Artisan roll when you're doing something creative. They just don't tell you how to reconcile that with the rules that say you make a Computer roll when you do computer editing. However, they do tell you how to resolve things when you mix Artisan and Forgery, or Computer and Forgery. It's not a big leap to infer that you do the same thing when you mix Artisan and Computer.
I don't think this is particularly a weakness in the rules, since there really isn't much in the way of any rules for Artisan, since we're playing Shadowrun and not Starving Artist.
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Unfortunately, that looks like it's a mistake on Aaron's part.
In SR4, can you withhold dice from a Sorcery or Spellcasting Test and use those dice instead to resist Drain, as you could in SR3?
This rule was dropped in SR4—it was a special case rule that didn't apply to any other mechanics in the game. If you happen to like it, you can of course continue to use it in your own games as a house rule. The entry for the Spellcasting Focus in SR4 had an incorrect reference to this rule that was corrected in SR4A.
Actually, it was correct according to the SR4 rules in effect when the sheets were made. I just haven't gotten a chance to fix those two sheets yet.
To top it off, I've switched my machine a few times since making them and while I have the original files, I don't have CorelDraw any more (never used the thing except for the cheat sheets, anyway). If anybody else wants to edit the originals, let me know and I'll shoot you the files.