[Medicineman]

@Medicineman:.... If you could run down some of the dice pools and rolls that were made in that combat, I would really really appreciate it. Perhaps it would shed some light on where my math has gone wrong when dealing with armor and damage.

Only Fragments.
First Fight was against 5 or 6 Goons (1 Orkleader ,all of them Military trained) with SMGs (Ingram Smart X I recall) or AK97 with folding Stock and Explo Ammo (they here hidden under  Coats) and they where pouring Long Burst upon my poor poor Troll .after 5  long Burst  My Char was down to (IIRC) 8 Stun and 5 Physical I was asked to soak 10,12,14 Points of Damage .The
second fight was against 3 Goons (ok only two because I Jumped the first one and killed him,before he could act  ) they too were armed with SMGs and Assault Rifles with Recoil comp of 4 and 5
one got me flatfooted (Glitch and no more Edge to compensate) so it was 5 - 8 Stun ,but I got both Goons (Hurray for Groundfighting and long Arms.I send them down 4 Levels)
last fight was against 3 Cops 2 with Shotguns with APDS Ammo and 1 cop switched to an APDS Ammo Mag after 4 rounds standard that didn't do nick against my Char.
They where lucky that the Doors in the Building where so small and that I had to tackle them one by one.
Our GM has lots of Luck with his Dice and the Dice Pool was between 10 to 15 (Incl Smart,Aiming etc)IIRC,   Smartlinked and recoil compensated(3-5 Pts)Weapons.The Leader used Edge in critical Situations.
Nothing that I would consider extraordinary.I like to Min/Max my Char and expect the same from professional adversaries

Hough!
Medicineman

[voydangel]

@Nomadzophiel: Actually, I could probably build a character that has 18/14 ish armor and could KO about 4 goons in a combat round. course he wouldn't be much help in a high profile meeting or hacking, but really getting that kind of armor is doable by most if not all starting characters.

@Medicineman: Guess i need to up my NPCs game a bit, I generally don't give them fully customized weapons and have them focusing all their attacks on the same character in a round. Food for thought.

[Medicineman]

@Medicineman: Guess i need to up my NPCs game a bit, I generally don't give them fully customized weapons and have them focusing all their attacks on the same character in a round. Food for thought.

I'm often fighting close In because I know that my Troll can take It.
My char is a Pitfighter and Tank .His Role is to engage the Enemy in Melee so that the others can organise a counter attack (and because his LOG is only 2 he's doing this instinctively )
And he's not getting ALL Attacks ,but most of them because He is either the most likely or most Fearsome (Fomori with two Raptorlegs & climbing Claws running directly towards the Enemy provokes most of the Attacks)

with an instinctive Dance
Medicineman

[Nomad Zophiel]

@Nomadzophiel: Actually, I could probably build a character that has 18/14 ish armor and could KO about 4 goons in a combat round. course he wouldn't be much help in a high profile meeting or hacking, but really getting that kind of armor is doable by most if not all starting characters.

I figured that was what you meant, but I didn't want to throw lots of math out without being sure. Now I personally have no idea how you would do this. Here's where my mind is on the subject:
Human/Elf characters are going to have a max Body of 6, unaugmented. More likely 5 but we'll work with 6. So they can have 12/12 before being encumbered. FFBA provides 6/2, stacks and only counts half towards encumbrance. So the way I have it figured, you're looking at 15/13 before penalties kick in. For less combative characters its more like 11/9 (Body 4). No argument that these are low-ish numbers. There's plenty enough easy ways to up it with implants, spells or adept powers. These are the numbers that most non-maxed out Body characters are working with, including Dwarves. What did I miss that you used to make up the difference?

[voydangel]

Well, I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I'm sure someone else could step in here with a better build, but just off the top of my head I would go with an Ork for the wee bit of extra body, thereby upping our armor "cap" so we don't get penalties. 7 body wouldn't be unheard of if you're building a super-shooty tank type toon I would think. Trolls get +1/+1 armor base and have a higher base Body stat, but I'm trying to show that most characters can get there, not that trolls are OP or some other randomness.

Now lets see (gotta break the books out - never actually tried to make a crazy armor beast)...

Form fitting body armor = 6/2
PPP = +2/+4 (+2/+6 w/ helmet)
Armored Jacket or Camo Suit = 8/6
Subtotal for only worn armor = 16/12 (16/14 w/ helmet) [only counts as 13/11 (13/13 w/ helmet) for encumbrance] *

To this subtotal we can add either trolls natural armor, some sort of dermal plating, dermal sheath, orthoskin, bone lacing or mystic armor, etc., bringing our total even higher - still with no penalties, and if you did somehow incur a penalty, it would not be out-of-line to pump your body up by one more - using either BP/karma to up your natural, or by addding cyber/bioware to the mix. Also note that:

* If your GM interprets the rules for FFBA + PPP as "Add the PPP to the FFBA, then divide its armor by 2 for encumbrance", then this combo can be worn with a Body 6, rather than requiring a Body of 7 due to the armor set only counting as 12/9 (12/10 w/ helmet) for encumbrance in that case. I do not run it like this, but I have heard of others interpreting the rules that way.

So anyway, even an elf could get really close to this setup no problem, especially when you add in the mystic armor or bio/cyberware. But as I said before, I don't really have much of an issue with the min-maxing or what have you, I don't care if people build tanks, what bothers me is all the tons of extra dice rolling required which tends to slow down combat.

[Chaemera]

* If your GM interprets the rules for FFBA + PPP as "Add the PPP to the FFBA, then divide its armor by 2 for encumbrance", then this combo can be worn with a Body 6, rather than requiring a Body of 7 due to the armor set only counting as 12/9 (12/10 w/ helmet) for encumbrance in that case. I do not run it like this, but I have heard of others interpreting the rules that way.

The only thing that I see talking about half-rating for encumbrance is the FFBA:

When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of form-fitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer's Body x2

Emphasis mine.

These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do

Okay, I can see, kinda, how you could get that interpretation, since PPP "modifies" the rating of armor worn. But, it seems like the underlined portions of my first quote clarify that position. You divide the FFBA, then add other sources of armor.

That says the equation is:
Encumbrance from Armor = FFBA/2 + Armor + PPP + Shield

Is there something that makes this more confusing and I'm missing it, or are people hanging their hat on that one line?

Sidenote: And, of course, your GM could always allow custom-fitted armor, that really ups the stakes for what you can wear.

[voydangel]

Encumbrance from Armor = FFBA/2 + Armor + PPP + Shield

Is there something that makes this more confusing and I'm missing it, or are people hanging their hat on that one line?

No, I don't think you're missing anything, that is how I run it as well. The instances I have heard of people running it the other way were - well, tba, I have no idea, I never bothered to ask why, I just said "interesting", made a mental note, and moved on. I can also see where the description for PPP could lead one to believe that you could modify the FFBA and then get a slight bonus in encumbrance with that interpretation, but I don't do it that way, and honestly, the difference is so slight that it really wouldn't make all that big of a difference even if that were the case. 

Sidenote: And, of course, your GM could always allow custom-fitted armor, that really ups the stakes for what you can wear.

Yea, that pretty much changes everything, but my concern is more with the insane amounts of dice rolling as per RAW, I'm not really too concerned with all the optional stuff right this second. 

[Nomad Zophiel]

Well, I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I'm sure someone else could step in here with a better build, but just off the top of my head I would go with an Ork for the wee bit of extra body,
<snip>
So anyway, even an elf could get really close to this setup no problem, especially when you add in the mystic armor or bio/cyberware. But as I said before, I don't really have much of an issue with the min-maxing or what have you, I don't care if people build tanks, what bothers me is all the tons of extra dice rolling required which tends to slow down combat.

OK, so you are talking someone specifically streamlined to be able to wear a lot of armor. Keep in mind that all of your examples have a decent BP and/or Essence cost involved. Even your basic Orc with 7 body costs the same as being a Magic 4 mage and more than an Edge 6 human normie. In general its something any combat monkey will do but not many less combat intensive characters.

As to the rolling, I agree that counting a fistfull of dice can be a pain. You could make the Bypassing Armor called shot the standard. In the long run it has the same effect on damage as not using it. Just subtract armor from the number of dice the shooter has. Using the dice cancel dice idea, you can take it as far as you're willing to go. See my first post in this thread for some logical (and possibly no fun to play) extremes.

[voydangel]

I suppose one could just state that Armor can only be used to buy hits on a soak test. i.e. every 4 armor = -1DV.  That's basically the exact same thing as the optional rule except only 25% as powerful.

To mitigate that so that combat isn't quite as harsh you could modify that to "every 3 armor = -1DV", or "every 2 armor = -1DV", depending on how deadly you want your combat to be.

Wouldn't be too hard to just make a note on your character sheet/NPC sheet that they have a base DV modifier of (for example) -4 or some such. Would definitely help to alleviate the dice bombs.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Its not a bad idea, but I'd be curious to see the effect on players. If its x Armor=1 free hit, then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder. I originally liked the idea of using the Bypass rule (armor subtracts dice directly from the hit roll) but it turns out there are a couple of very good reasons to use that rule as-is.

What it comes down to is there is a basic imbalance. Base DV is automatic, not rolled. Armor is rolled, not automatic. Ignoring those, a firearms test is basically AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD.

So now I'm actually more stumped on how to streamline this than Iw as when we started.

[Chaemera]

I've found that one of the best ways to streamline is often to not change the rules, since you don't know what's gonna happen and just buy more, different colored, dice.

Then, when I tell a player he's getting shot at, I can just tell him modifiers to his REA roll & the AP of the ammo, he scoops up, say 3 green dice (REA 4 -1 misc modifier) and 15 red dice (BOD 5, Armor 14, -4 AP for APDS). These all get rolled as one gigantor dice pool into our 12" dice tray, and he quickly sorts out green hits and red hits, green 1's and red 1's. It's over in two seconds.

I keep a couple hundred dice on me, for the players who don't want / can't afford a significant number of differently colored dice.

[Doc Chaos]

then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder

Which means they loose a full die every time someone fires at them with a heavy pistol (-1 AP)

[voydangel]

Its not a bad idea, but I'd be curious to see the effect on players. If its x Armor=1 free hit, then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder. I originally liked the idea of using the Bypass rule (armor subtracts dice directly from the hit roll) but it turns out there are a couple of very good reasons to use that rule as-is.

What it comes down to is there is a basic imbalance. Base DV is automatic, not rolled. Armor is rolled, not automatic. Ignoring those, a firearms test is basically AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD.

So now I'm actually more stumped on how to streamline this than Iw as when we started.

You could always still have them actually roll any remainder dice, plus, as Doc Chaos said, the remainder would also be good for buffering AP. I feel that the basic imbalance you're referring to is basically that base DV for guns tend to be between 4 and 9, whereas base Armor for characters is around 9 to 16, but as you said, its rolled so you only end up with roughly 3 to 6 hits. I guess it's looking more and more like any changes to the actual number of dice rolled (via the x Armor=1 free hit ruling) is just gonna move the combat deadliness in one direction or the other. Actually, although this is coming to a conclusion in a completely different way than I imagined, I think I'm really liking this. Basically what it means is that if you implement the "x Armor=1 free hit" hourse rule, you are giving yourself a more granular (finer) control over precisely how deadly combat is in your game, just by raising or lowering "x". And that's in addition to needing to roll less dice. Win - win. 

I've found that one of the best ways to streamline is often to not change the rules, since you don't know what's gonna happen and just buy more, different colored, dice.

Then, when I tell a player he's getting shot at, I can just tell him modifiers to his REA roll & the AP of the ammo, he scoops up, say 3 green dice (REA 4 -1 misc modifier) and 15 red dice (BOD 5, Armor 14, -4 AP for APDS). These all get rolled as one gigantor dice pool into our 12" dice tray, and he quickly sorts out green hits and red hits, green 1's and red 1's. It's over in two seconds.

I keep a couple hundred dice on me, for the players who don't want / can't afford a significant number of differently colored dice.

Ahh, Capitalism, if you can't solve the problem - go spend money. 
Actually, I do like your idea rather alot, it may not reduce the number of dice rolled, but it does speed up the combat by..well, 33-50% in theory. Maybe I'll have to invest in some more number cubes.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Yep, using 2 Armor=1 Hit puts you in an area where damage is very roughly equal to net hits on AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD and you can modify from there.

[voydangel]

Yea, I think that if I do decide to test out this as a house rule I'll probably go with the 3:1, I like my combat to go a little faster and be a little more deadly. It's a bit grittier and more realistic IMO. But maybe that's just me.