Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: runarm on <01-31-15/0546:35>
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I understand that it's generally 30 days from the release of the dead tree edition, but the PDF and paper releases have usually been at the same time (or near enough to it) so that it doesn't matter.
Now we've had the Run Faster PDF for over 30 days and the paper version is not available yet. Any chance of Run Faster becoming legal prior to the paper release?
R.
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I highly doubt it will be legal before 30 days after the hard cover release. Honestly that's a good thing. They need all the time they can get to balance the different character generation methods, pick which positive and negative qualities are right for missions play, and figure out missions stance on metasapients and infected.
Dont worry it will be here soon enough :)
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The only time making a PDF legal before book release has been considered, was going into a major con (we're talking Origins or Gen Con here). Any other time, it has not been moved up from 30 days post dead tree.
At this time no release date for Run Faster has been confirmed. However please know, you're not alone in wanting it out.
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according to the Critical Glitch facebook page, the first sighting of the DT version of Run Faster was at Ohayocon from a player's pre-order
however the official release date has yet to be announced.
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It will still be 30 days from official Street Date, since that's when the bulk of Shadowrun Players will have copies.
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Run Faster's street date was just announced as February 18.
http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2015/02/03/catalyst-february-street-dates/
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Ask and ye shall receive. 8)
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So Friday, March 20.
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Any word Bull on what you've decided to allow?
Sum-2-10, Meta-variants, Qualities, Etc Etc?
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So Friday, March 20.
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Yeah, I saw the date, I was more wondering if you'd made up a list yet.
But I guess I'll take that as you'll get it to us by then :)
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I'm sure he's making a list and checking it twice. ::)
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Going to see what qualities are naughty or nice. :P
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Yeah, I saw the date, I was more wondering if you'd made up a list yet.
But I guess I'll take that as you'll get it to us by then :)
yup measure twice cut once. Would much rather it get as much thought as possible than need a ret con or to have something promised to us and then taken away before it becomes official. No rushing perfection they say ;)
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Officially, nothing is allowed! Muhuhahahahahahahaha!!!!
Ok, now that I've said that, everyone will be happy with whatever is allowed, right? ;)
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I doubt there'll be much complaints about what is and isn't allowed.. well, aside from the munchkins but they always find something to complain about anyway.
Personally.. and this is nothing but my own speculation, I think that Sum-2-10 will make it through, it's already balanced and restricted via the Priority system anyway. Sure it allows for more optimization, but there's still limitations to what it can do.
Karma Buy is maybe a bit more sketchy, it's the min-max's delight, it miiight be doable, but the characters will be quite different.
Life Module I doubt will stand much of a chance.. I've used it before and it can make some really crazy characters with radically different skill blocks to traditional characters.
Overall I doubt Karma Buy or Life Module will make the cut, simply because of how different the characters can be to Priority characters, it'll make the game harder to balance trying to fit those sorts of characters in or the more experienced players can just make easy mode characters build specifically to blast through missions without being held back by the restrictions of the Priority system. By that token I'm thinking Sum-2-10 should make the cut as it is based on the same character building foundations as Priority, so even with players messing around wit the Prioriy levels, they're still going to come out as Priority characters, and that's what Missions have been built around.
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LOL!
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I fell that they will allow sum to 10 and disallow point buy and life mods
My reasoning is that they want to make the game available to new players. A poorly build priority runner is still going to be better than a poorly build karma or life mod. Also take into amount the amount of extra time those systems take to generate a runner and then think of those 4 hour Welcome to the Sixth World con slots where they help players make runners...
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I think we will see Life modules, a selection of qualities, and maybe the basic set meta vairents (IE only the ones from current races).
Sum 2 10 may make it through, it's karma advantage isn't that high, but I have my doubts. We'll know soon though :D
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Per Bull's post we will know what is approved or denied by next Friday the 20th.
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I'd be amazed if life modules is approved for missions. I'd think it would be a nightmare for a GM at a convention to spot check a character made that way.
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Hmmm, I guess since there is no updated FAQ up, then all of Fun Faster is mission legal tomorrow? :)
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Hmmm, I guess since there is no updated FAQ up, then all of Fun Faster is mission legal tomorrow? :)
Ok, all done. Extraneous posts weeded out. I'll keep this pinned for a while so folks can reference it. Missions FAQ will be out by the 20th, no promises that it will be earlier, and I'm not willing to commit to saying what is and isn't allowed until it's all final, because stuff. :) So don't bother asking.
Here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/living-campaign-discussion/october-2014-missions-faq-request-answers/15/) is the topic where he posted this.
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Officially, nothing is allowed! Muhuhahahahahahahaha!!!!
Vandarl, I guess you missed this post huh?
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Opps. I did somehow manage to miss that one. Not that I lack faith in Bull, I have no doubt the hassles of dealing with us would wear a lesser Ork down.
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It's on Jason's desk awaiting his approval. Funny enough, most of the FAQ items were implemented into the Run Faster update for Hero Lab a couple days ago :)
Quick n Dirty though for the big stuff people want to know:
Build Point/Karma Gen is allowed (Though it should be noted that, on average, characters come in a little less powerful than with Priority).
Sum to 10 is not allowed (Humans break this badly), and the Life Path system is disallowed.
All normal racial metavarients are allowed.
None of the metasapients (Sprites, Naga, Centaurs, Changelings, etc) or the infected are allowed. Partly this is for story reasons, since a city like Chicago does NOT accept or embrace the "weird" after everything it's been through, so your average metasapient would end up driven out of town or flat out murdered, and partly because anything that's magical in nature (Especially dual natured) and even the slightest bit san or non-toxic will stay the fuck away from Chicago and it's constant painful background count.
Metasapients are allowed for Prime Runner characters, however. So if you had one in Season 4 or earlier, you can recreate them just fine.
The rest is a crap shoot. if it has a hard and fast rule to it taht can be easily incorporated into Missions, it'll likely be allowed. If it gives you something for "nothing" (aka, a RP thing) or requires special RP stuff, it's likely disallowed.
I should hopefully have this for you later tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon. Soon as Jason signs off, I'll put into Dropbox and post the links.
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None of the metasapients (Sprites, Naga, Centaurs, Changelings, etc) or the infected are allowed. Partly this is for story reasons, since a city like Chicago does NOT accept or embrace the "weird" after everything it's been through, so your average metasapient would end up driven out of town or flat out murdered, and partly because anything that's magical in nature (Especially dual natured) and even the slightest bit san or non-toxic will stay the fuck away from Chicago and it's constant painful background count.
Not to mention the Flourescing Astral Bacteria that will literally eat them alive.
Thanks for the update Bull.
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It's on Jason's desk awaiting his approval. Funny enough, most of the FAQ items were implemented into the Run Faster update for Hero Lab a couple days ago :)
Quick n Dirty though for the big stuff people want to know:
Build Point/Karma Gen is allowed (Though it should be noted that, on average, characters come in a little less powerful than with Priority).
Sum to 10 is not allowed (Humans break this badly), and the Life Path system is disallowed.
All normal racial metavarients are allowed.
None of the metasapients (Sprites, Naga, Centaurs, Changelings, etc) or the infected are allowed. Partly this is for story reasons, since a city like Chicago does NOT accept or embrace the "weird" after everything it's been through, so your average metasapient would end up driven out of town or flat out murdered, and partly because anything that's magical in nature (Especially dual natured) and even the slightest bit san or non-toxic will stay the fuck away from Chicago and it's constant painful background count.
Metasapients are allowed for Prime Runner characters, however. So if you had one in Season 4 or earlier, you can recreate them just fine.
The rest is a crap shoot. if it has a hard and fast rule to it taht can be easily incorporated into Missions, it'll likely be allowed. If it gives you something for "nothing" (aka, a RP thing) or requires special RP stuff, it's likely disallowed.
I should hopefully have this for you later tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon. Soon as Jason signs off, I'll put into Dropbox and post the links.
Thanks for the update bull, I have been wanting to see how this came out.
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Sum to 10 is not allowed (Humans break this badly), and the Life Path system is disallowed.
I'm surprised by this. I didn't think Humans broke S2T anymore with Edge/SP being involved.
I mean I'm an Elf in my current game and I'd use it just for variety.
Mostly though I just see any human as loosing 45-65 Karma by dropping their meta from 2-1 or 1-0.
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Anyone building a human could go ABBEE or AACEE and build a pretty badass cyberzombie that still has 3 edge. Other metatypes just can't squeeze as much out of the S2T system just because of their restricted choices on the metatype column.
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I don't get it - how exactly do human characters break sum-2-ten? So far I've not been able to come up with a viable character type that I can make better with sum-2-ten than with say, karmagen - but then again, I'm probably missing something, which is why I honestly would like to know exactly how this potential breaking occurs.
R.
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Human mundane chars would typically use E for magic and D for metatype, resulting in EDG 5. Giving up two of those edge points to get 4 points of attributes or 10/5 skills or almost 20000 ¥ is pretty much a no-brainer and very powerful.
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As for how it could potentially break char gen, and I stress potentially, as I don't see may people making a character with this exact assortment of stats (Though I suspect it would make a killer missions face)
Sum 2 ten A(4) in attributes, A(4) in skills, C(2) in Rescources, E(0) for race and magic (Only matters because humans get 1 special at choice E)
Rating Cost
Bod 3 25 karma
Agi 3 25 karma
Rea 3 25 karma
Str 2 10 karma
Wil 5 70 karma
Cha 6 100 karma
Log 5 70 karma
Int 5 70 karma
Edge 3 15 karma
410 karma for the attributes and edge (And I'm sure if I tried I could raise this eve higher)
The skill could look like this
Rating
Skill 1 6 42 karma
Skill 2 6 42 karma
Skill 3 6 42 karma
Skill 4 6 42 karma
Skill 5 6 42 karma
Skill 6 6 42 karma
Skill 7 6 42 karma
Skill 8 4 20 karma
group skill 1 6 105 karma
group skill 2 4 50 karma
469 karma for skills (This I'm pretty sure is the worst case scenario for karma)
Rescources 140,000 70 karma
949 karma so far and I haven't even started on knowledge skills and contacts
As I said, this is a potential problem build character just thrown together in a few minutes as an example, as metahumans have to spend points in race, it's less of an issue for them, but I can see where the potential human abuse ruling came from.
Now, I will freely admit that I haven't compared this to the potential karma cost of a standard build character under the base priority system,I would expect that there are already builds that far exceed 800 karma, hence why it was ruled to allow karmagen as they may have a tendency to be a bit weaker.
But I would recommend that people try to make their concept character in both systems to see which way it comes out more to your liking
(edited to include potential numbers change for prionic6 post)
But to compare
Human mundane chars would typically use E for magic and D for metatype, resulting in EDG 5. Giving up two of those edge points to get 4 points of attributes or 10/5 skills or almost 20000 ¥ is pretty much a no-brainer and very powerful.
So resetting the priorities to Standard; A(4) in attributes, B(3) in skills, C(2) in Rescources, D(3) for race and (E) for magic
Without redoing the entire thing, keep the attributes the same, raise edge to 5 (increase karma cost by 45)
Only have 6 skills at rating 6 and 1 group sill at rating 5 (decrease karma cots by 142
End karma cost becomes 852, a difference of 97 karma
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Guys, lets not argue too much. It's also to keep things a little simpler, and generally keep everyone on a level playing field. The ONLY reason that Karma Gen was approved is because the characters most often work out to be less powerful than what you can build with Priority. You're sacrificing a little power for flexibility ("Everything has a Price").
For purposes of Missions, Priority is still considered standard.
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My apologies Bull, wasn't trying to argue, was just trying to provide a numbers example of how S2T could be imbalanced when compared to standard priority.
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Absolutely - no argument intended. I'm honestly curious about how it was worked out that humans specifically break sum-2-ten.
I've not been able to break it worse than I can with karmagen for example.
R.
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So resetting the priorities to Standard; A(4) in attributes, B(3) in skills, C(2) in Rescources, D(3) for race and (E) for magic
Without redoing the entire thing, keep the attributes the same, raise edge to 5 (increase karma cost by 45)
Only have 6 skills at rating 6 and 1 group sill at rating 5 (decrease karma cots by 142
End karma cost becomes 852, a difference of 97 karma
Skills is pretty much considered a trap, its the most Karma intensive, which is what your grading on, but its also the least useful stat on the chart.
An Attributes jump, if done to raise a 1 to a 5 is 70 Karma v/s "Avg" 55 for SP is only a 15 Karma difference.
But I'm honestly not sure its equal. 1 die on any random skill check isn't a lot of difference. Loosing 2 points of Edge can change the way you run the character.
Either way I'm now curious to see what Positive Qualities get removed as that is the more interesting choice for me.
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There has been some debate on the forums as to whether or not karma gen gets the free contact points from charisma and the free knowledge points from LOG + INT that you get from the priority system. Is it too late to add a note to the FAQ explicitly stating whether you do get the free points or not? Thanks.
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I don't get it - how exactly do human characters break sum-2-ten? So far I've not been able to come up with a viable character type that I can make better with sum-2-ten than with say, karmagen - but then again, I'm probably missing something, which is why I honestly would like to know exactly how this potential breaking occurs.
It wouldn't be so bad if Humans were shafted to begin with. They go up by 2 SP per level. Meanwhile EVERY other Race goes up by 3-5 per jump.
And all of them except Except Elves have more bonus Attributes than the max 4-pt Jump in Attr you get from A-B-C. Meanwhile C-D-E are only 2 point jumps so actually Elves are ahead there too.
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Glad we hadn't started out game yet.. was doing Sum-to-10 and had both a shifter and a changeling in the group... looks like there's going to be a lot of reworking in the next couple of weeks.
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FAQ is now up, check the sticky topic for the link.
As a note, after some discussion and deliberation, we decided to allow both Sum to 10 and Life Path. However, characters created under both of these are subject to approval and need to be fully audited and signed off on by a registered Catalyst Demo Team Agent. You cannot show up at a time sensitive game with one expecting approval either, it needs to be done in advance or elsewhere. So keep that in mind. And don't abuse the system. the Demo team can and does report what's going on, and if we start getting reports of characters minmaxed even worse than they already are, we can and will rescind this policy :)
Enjoy! :)
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Thanks Bull :)
My players will be very happy with this, and I have no issue with keeping them in line, character-creation-wise.
R.
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WooHoo! Thank you Bull. Getting the work done while putting up with impatient gamers has got to be a massive pain, You Da Ork!
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Yay! All my hopes for qualities made the cut.
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Great to see this Bull. Do you know if there are any plans to incorporate this into the "formal" FAQ and/or errata?
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No idea. I do know that I run most of the more complex questions past Jason, and that he ultimately signs off on the document, but at the same time that doesn't make it 100% official. It's entirely up to him and Randall and co.
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Fair enough...thanks. Figured that if some of the errata got pushed into HeroLab, that might have "meant" something a little more official. Time will tell ;)
Thanks again.
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Already posted this in the March FAQ thread, but in case it is found here first...
Could you clarify when the retcon of a Quality applies to a character, is it applied as if the character had it at character creation? Or is this just allowing the character to obtain a quality without paying the extra karma?
I ask because some qualities (Like Black Market Pipeline or Sensei) need to be applied to an appropriate contact, which people may have chosen different contacts for their character had these qualities been available.
The second reason I ask is there are qualities that alter character creation and development, such as College Education or School of Hard Knocks, which may change how you spend knowledge skill points during character creation as well as possibly change the karma cost of future knowledge skills, which in turn could change how much available karma a character currently has.
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Are Changelings allowed or not?
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Are Changelings allowed or not?
Only base Metatypes and Metavariants are legal.
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Already posted this in the March FAQ thread, but in case it is found here first...
Could you clarify when the retcon of a Quality applies to a character, is it applied as if the character had it at character creation? Or is this just allowing the character to obtain a quality without paying the extra karma?
I ask because some qualities (Like Black Market Pipeline or Sensei) need to be applied to an appropriate contact, which people may have chosen different contacts for their character had these qualities been available.
The second reason I ask is there are qualities that alter character creation and development, such as College Education or School of Hard Knocks, which may change how you spend knowledge skill points during character creation as well as possibly change the karma cost of future knowledge skills, which in turn could change how much available karma a character currently has.
This isn't going to have long term effects, since Run Faster character edits need to be done basically between now and the next time you play, so I'm not going to include it (at this time) in the next FAQ update.
Basically, apply as if you had it at chargen. However, you cannot rebuild your character. So you can add to existing skills (or buy new ones), or add to existing contacts (But not replace old contacts). If something provides a discount that you would have gotten on a skill or attribute or whatever you raised, the karma is refunded (and likewise, if it increases the cost, you go into Karmic debt).
Basically, fix the character so it's legal with as few changes as possible.
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Thank you for the clarification, I just wasn't sure how this was supposed to be handled.
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Are Changelings allowed or not?
Only base Metatypes and Metavariants are legal.
Although, they are for Prime Runner play from what I can tell (as they are under the Metasapients section of the book)....
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Are Changelings allowed or not?
Only base Metatypes and Metavariants are legal.
Although, they are for Prime Runner play from what I can tell (as they are under the Metasapients section of the book)....
I probably need to clear that up. This clause is primarily in to allow players to port over their earlier season characters, which inlcuded pixies and naga and stuff. I don't remember if Changelings were allowed in earlier seasons offhand, but I don't believe so. But honestly, in a higher power environment, the potential abuses/power imbalances from the Changelings (and other Metasapients) become less pronounced as well.
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Changelings were either legal in S3 and S4 or my namesake character was illegal for both seasons. ;D
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Changelings were definitely legal in SR4, at the least.
See Season 4 FAQ page 3 under, "Can I be a (fill in the blank)?"
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I just didn;t remember off hand. I've been neck deep in 5E for over 3 years now :)
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Basically, apply as if you had it at chargen. However, you cannot rebuild your character. So you can add to existing skills (or buy new ones), or add to existing contacts (But not replace old contacts). If something provides a discount that you would have gotten on a skill or attribute or whatever you raised, the karma is refunded (and likewise, if it increases the cost, you go into Karmic debt).
Basically, fix the character so it's legal with as few changes as possible.
One of my Missions regulars is asking if their Elf can become a Dryad in this manner.
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Basically, apply as if you had it at chargen. However, you cannot rebuild your character. So you can add to existing skills (or buy new ones), or add to existing contacts (But not replace old contacts). If something provides a discount that you would have gotten on a skill or attribute or whatever you raised, the karma is refunded (and likewise, if it increases the cost, you go into Karmic debt).
Basically, fix the character so it's legal with as few changes as possible.
One of my Missions regulars is asking if their Elf can become a Dryad in this manner.
yeah, don't see why not.
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If you don't mind a little bit more work you could use life module to build a character using it. First build it using the life modules then just convert it over to the priority system. Hero Lab makes it a lot easier to do but I have been able to build some characters using it. Kind of fun also now I have a lot of answers to those 20 questions for NERPs :D. 8)