[Michael Chandra]

I don't have Run&Gun yet, but page 125 has an Interrupt Action called "Run for Your Life/Dive on the Grenade". Can't wait to read it.

[RHat]

I don't have Run&Gun yet, but page 125 has an Interrupt Action called "Run for Your Life/Dive on the Grenade". Can't wait to read it.

Also, options to throw the grenade back either after it lands or by catching it - just better hope to hell it's not on Motion Sensor mode.

[Erling]

Ranged Combat - Firearms
Defending against ranged attack considered an Opposed Test: Agility+Skill VS Reaction OR Intuition (the highest of those). Because I hate characters dodging three bullets in a row, standing without cover (like in The Matrix movies).

I even wanted to resurrect SR 1-3 rules of dodging - a limited Pool for dodging, refreshing every Combat Turn. But my players said it's too harsh, so we use 4e-like rule mentioned above.

[RHat]

Ranged Combat - Firearms
Defending against ranged attack considered an Opposed Test: Agility+Skill VS Reaction OR Intuition (the highest of those). Because I hate characters dodging three bullets in a row, standing without cover (like in The Matrix movies).

I even wanted to resurrect SR 1-3 rules of dodging - a limited Pool for dodging, refreshing every Combat Turn. But my players said it's too harsh, so we use 4e-like rule mentioned above.

Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.

[Erling]

Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.

That's how it's meant to be. Firefight is not a piece of cake, that's what my players quickly begin to understand. Usually there are two chummers in the firefight - the quick and the dead. Hide, take cover, shoot first or make sure your backup will geek that guy after you hit the dirt. Otherwise players' characters strart to act like Hollywood actors.

[Michael Chandra]

The highest Reaction possible is 10. With Cover that's 14. Take off 5 from a burst penalty, and you're at 9. If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice. That's 5/6 hitchance. This is maximum defense for a non-magical-buffed character, vs a mere optimized chargen runner (and elite enemies). Add 1 more wireless bonus die and 3 skill levels, and you're at 7% chance to dodge, with maximum cover, and nothing one can do to go higher. And an Adept can have that straight out of chargen.

Ask yourself: Do you want to give your players a hard time, or do you want them to realize that it's only a matter of time before they get massacred because defense will be outbeaten by offensive quite easily, so they can kill their enemies easily but it's only a matter of time before even their toughest get mowed down? Because not even cover can save you in SR5 with your houserule, they'll die like dogs the second their enemy is anywhere near competent, no matter how smart they are.

[RHat]

Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.

That's how it's meant to be. Firefight is not a piece of cake, that's what my players quickly begin to understand. Usually there are two chummers in the firefight - the quick and the dead. Hide, take cover, shoot first or make sure your backup will geek that guy after you hit the dirt. Otherwise players' characters strart to act like Hollywood actors.

There is difference between dangerous combat, and  combat where you're going to die no matter what you do.  If people aren't using cover, start using burst penalties, apply the knckdown rules, and so on.  Combat is already very dangerous, so if it's not seeming that way, I start to wonder what's missing in your game.

[Erling]

If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice.

My house rule isn't based on such high-end characters.

For example, there is a sudden firefight between a PC (a detective) and a NPC (street ganger). Neither of them is a street sammy or other kind of bleeding edge trained fighter.
Though, detecitve has good skil in using a pistol (4) and adequate agility (3). So he rolls 7d6.
Ganger must know how to survive and be quick enough to run the streets, so he has agility (3) and intuition (3). So he rolls 6d6.
The firefight takes place in a backyard of old house. There's no adequate cover (at least, character haven't reached it yet). They roll Initiative, detective shoots first.
SA shot provides 7d6 against 6d6 - chances are barely equal.
SA burst provdes 4d6 (if pistol has no recoil compensation and detective strength is less or equal to 3) against 4d6.

I think that such a high chance for dodging 3 bullets is too cool for a street thug.
Even ADEQUATE pistol user must have chances to hit higher, than target's chances to dodge. Because bullets aren't something you can really dodge. You can predict enemy's actions, jump and twist, making his aim more difficult (that's why you have defense roll in all editions of SR), but 50/50 chance for hit gives you opportunity to literally dance among the bullets ("haha, load one more clip and try again - I will just stand here and dodge"). Even semi-auto gun can be used for pressing enemy with a bullets, and at certain moment bullet will get him (with chance much higher than 50/50).

[RHat]

Well, putting aside that a baseline, average person with a bit of skill is still gonna have trouble hitting a moving target that's shooting back, you've got at least one rule wrong.  No character has less than 2 RC - 1+(Str/3), rounded up.  Thus, bare minimum, that detective uses and SA burst with 6 dice.

Besides that, it's not "dodge three bullets".  It's "gets missed by three bullets".  Your defense roll doesn't represent dodging the specific path of the bullet, it represents freaking moving so that the other guy has a hard time hitting you.

And as soon as you take it past that ridiculously low end, there's serious problems.  Maybe the detective picks up Muscle Replacement/Toner 2, or runs a wireless implanted smartlink, and suddenly it's 8 dice against 4 for about a 70% chance to hit.  Even the super-low-end version is about 55%.

[Michael Chandra]

If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice.

My house rule isn't based on such high-end characters.

If you're forbidding players from getting decent combat potential in chargen, and disallowing them from getting SMGs with Gas-Vents, then the houserule works, but on the other hand you seem to be overestimating just how easy gunfights are. There's been guys surviving hundreds of bullets shot at them.

If a single player gets a lasersighted wireless SMG with stock and gas-vent, however, he's at 90% hit-chance under the SR5 system. Under the SR4 system, he wouldn't even need the gas-vent, he can just fire 3 rounds for the same chances. If the enemy is behind cover, this incompetent PC would still be handling 60% chances to hit with a simple burst. If the character is an incompetent street sam with a mere 6 augmented agility, a mere 4 in skills, and a wireless smartgun with implanted smartlink, then even behind cover the ganger has <2/11 chance to not get hit.

What kind of campaign are you running? Because I fail to see this houserule working the second any character functions better than a mook NPC. Mobsters roll 10 dice on offense and 4 on defense with you. The Street Samurai archetype rolls 10, 12 in melee. In fact, no archetype that has to deal with combat regularly has 7 dice, even the Face and Tank roll 8.

[Erling]

No character has less than 2 RC - 1+(Str/3), rounded up.

My fault. I remember that, just got a critical glitch. Yes, 6d6 VS 4d6.

Your defense roll doesn't represent dodging the specific path of the bullet, it represents freaking moving so that the other guy has a hard time hitting you.

Yes, I've mentioned it above. Making the aim for difficult.

If you're forbidding players from maximizing their combat potential in chargen, and disallowing them from getting SMGs with Gas-Vents, then the houserule works, but on the other hand you seem to be overestimating just how easy gunfights are.

What kind of campaign are you running?

A long investigation with strong need in carrying weapons with yourself everywhere (visiting many places) without being busted by police. So my players' characters mostly handle semi-auto pistols and (rarely) machine pistols. Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec). If an enemy (for example, corp security as sample grunt) usually has 7 dice for defense (+4 agility +3 intuition), what's the chance for hit without cover?
SA 9d6 vs 7d6
SA burst 8d6 vs 5d6.

Yeah, I know it's quite easy to obtain laser sight or smartlink, muscle replacement, enchanced/customized cyberlimbs or muscle toner, but that all leads to necessarity of being high-end to have a high chance to hit a simple target which has no cover. Acessorized auto weapons like SMGs (gas-vent and shock pad aren't that expensive) can easily provide long bursts with high recoil compensastion (-5 to defense roll, -1 or even -0 to attack roll), I admit that. But semi-auto fire is most common in my campaign, so I found it realistic to add some chances to attackers' rolls.

[Michael Chandra]

53.37% and 61.29%.

Given how this houserule won't function outside extremely-limited campaigns, I don't think it's quite useful for others. Still, if you want unrealistic gunfights because the alternative is very-long gunfights, it's an understandable houserule.

However, do keep in mind that the target isn't just standing there, he's actively avoiding the attack. Sure, you only have ~53% chance to hit on each shot, but that's because he's trying to avoid being hit, and that's against a single attack. If two people fire at the same opponent, there's only 2/11 chance they evade both attacks, due to the defense dice dropping. And the odds we're talking about here, are the same ones you'll get with good cover with your houserule. So the PCs firing at a group of gangers in a warehouse shootout would result under your rule in people easily dropping, while without it you'd take ~3 shots per enemy to hit them, and ~2 hits per enemy to take them down. With 2 IPs per CT, that's still a gunfight that's over in only 9 seconds, much shorter than a shootout in the average tv-show or movie takes, and less rounds fired. And your PCs are at that level, they're not expert shooters, they just know how to use a gun. So of course they're not going to hit bulls-eye when firing at an enemy that's actively trying not to get shot. If the guy was simply standing there, he'd have 0 defense dice after all.

(To illustrate: A gunman fired more than 65 rounds in a shootout with the cops, he killed two people, both of which pretty much by surprise. In the actual shootout, he wounded 4 people. In another shootout, the heavily-armored bankrobbers fired 1100 rounds, one got shot over 20 times in the legs by automatic gunfire by SWAT, before then the cops didn't manage to properly damage them, aside from a few lucky hits to the arms. So that's half an hour of lotsa cops firing and not hitting, and 1100 rounds only causing 18 wounded, with assault rifles and pistols.)

So while I understand you want to keep your gunfights short, I should note it's rather unrealistic, and due to the restrictions, won't really work for near-any other table.

By the way, defense isn't agility+intuition, so I assume you typo'd there.

[Erling]

(To illustrate: A gunman fired more than 65 rounds in a shootout with the cops, he killed two people, both of which pretty much by surprise. In the actual shootout, he wounded 4 people. In another shootout, the heavily-armored bankrobbers fired 1100 rounds, one got shot over 20 times in the legs by automatic gunfire by SWAT, before then the cops didn't manage to properly damage them, aside from a few lucky hits to the arms. So that's half an hour of lotsa cops firing and not hitting, and 1100 rounds only causing 18 wounded, with assault rifles and pistols.)

I see, but that's not a straight analogy. There's a strong difference between hitting statistics in facility assault and in close quarter battle.

So while I understand you want to keep your gunfights short, I should note it's rather unrealistic, and due to the restrictions, won't really work for near-any other table.

It's realistic for CQB when there's lack of cover, but yes, it's rather unrealistic for fighting inside a building with many rooms, windows, walls etc.
But I didn't say I want my PCs to always bull-eye a security grunt with a single SA shot, because in such circumstances heavy modifiers are appliable. At least +4 for defense, and also having a full cover isn't only +4, it's a blind fire and barrier shooting situation.

Yes, my houserule may be odd in some situations, but basic rules can't provide the same balance for completely different situations. Autofire inside building will be OK with basic rules, but adequately skilled character unable to hit an uncovered target with a pistol within about 8 meters looks funny for me, IMHO. I can imagine an unskilled shooter, who fails to hit a guy, which is rolling and trying to obfuscate the shooter, but skilled shooter must hit. At least at second or third bullet.

AFAIK, Cyberpunk 2020 combat system takes into account something like what I'm talking about.
I also REALLY love SR3 system with bare Combat Pool used for defending against ranged attack. Too much bullets for you, you're short on dice in the pool? Then take your damage.

By the way, defense isn't agility+intuition, so I assume you typo'd there.

Yeah, I meant R+I.

[ZeConster]

Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec).

So they're weaklings using weak weapons, which is the only level at which that houserule will work. Nevermind 18+ dice (or the most extremes case of adepts eventually being able to reach 12+6+[8 to 12]+2+1 or roughly 30 dice after ~150 Karma), it already falls apart at a regular level of 12-15 dice.

[RHat]

Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec).

So they're weaklings using weak weapons, which is the only level at which that houserule will work. Nevermind 18+ dice (or the most extremes case of adepts eventually being able to reach 12+6+[8 to 12]+2+1 or roughly 30 dice after ~150 Karma), it already falls apart at a regular level of 12-15 dice.

Even at a regular low level like 9 or 10 dice, it's hugely problematic.