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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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Finstersang

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« Reply #135 on: <09-17-19/1224:51> »
I said it before... but I kinda like the fact that big hulk trolls get to do massive damage with their fists. It is also not like the unarmed combat damage for a troll is "free", it require that you make a rather heavy investment into an attribute that most other people don't need more than maybe 3-4 in and in this edition Trolls also start from strength 1 like all other races. Coupled that with that you in this edition need to spend a minor action to move and it only let you move 10 meters combat turn which in turn make it much harder to actually get within range to deliver your punches (at least when compared to previous edition where you could teleport charge people with ease).

And I also like the fact that a street samurai will now benefit from switching from an assault rifle or sniper rifle to a katana in CQC (even with mediocre Strength) or that the nimble elf adept get to slice people up with her magic weapon focus without being required to have a strength of 8+.



Having said that, for people that still consider this to be a major issue a house rule could be to link all 'agile' weapons to Agility and link all 'heavy' weapons to Strength (where 'agile' weapons include, but are not limited to; knives, bike chains, swords, whips, etc. and 'heavy' weapons include, but are not limited to; clubs, axes, hammers, zweihanders, etc.)

Then give unarmed combat a fixed damage value of 2S and let the player choose if he or she wish to link it to Agility or Strength to represent if the player is using a 'soft' or a 'hard' martial art. (where 'softer' martial arts could for example represent; judo, aikido, jujustu, tai chi, etc. and 'harder' martial arts could for example represent; boxing, karate, kick boxing, tae kwon-do etc.)



That way you can still build your character towards Agility (and in that case you probably don't need more than maybe 3-4 Strength even if you have a melee focus) as I talked about in the beginning of the post, but this also let you build your melee character towards Strength (in which case you probably don't need more than maybe 3-4 Agility) and where a Troll will probably benefit (at least slightly) from picking up a sledgehammer or combat axe compared to using his fists - but a strong but not super agile troll will probably also benefit (at least slightly) more from using his dermal plated fists than a flimsy knife or katana (which kinda make sense). Unarmed combat damage will also no longer scale off the charts.

Win - Win ?

While I´d still prefer my "add half the difference of Str and the Base Damage to the Damage Code" solution, this is certainly another good way to solve the Fists > Combat Axe problem, especially if you also think that Fists > Guns is a huge realism problem.

Personally, I´m ok with Melee Combat having more damage potential than Firearms, since melee requires you to also get close to the target. It´s less realistic, but a bit more "balanced" in turn; Like how in many FPS the melee options deal more damage than the boomsticks.

wraith

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« Reply #136 on: <09-17-19/1543:02> »
It is looking like this is something I am going to house rule. I'm going to assume that all damage listed is for a str 3 individual. So that would be an unarmed damage of 2 (str/2 round up). So a combat knife that has DV of 3 I'll change to str/2 round up +1.
Note this will scale very high.

Troll max racial Strength is 9, plus augs gives you max 13; 10+ is quite easy to come by. So Str/2 is going to range over 5-7.

The most damaging melee weapon is a combat axe at 5P, which implies (str/2)+3 by your idea. So that's a maximum of 10P for a full buffed troll, and 7-8P for moderately optimised characters. That's really high compared to 2-4P for pistols, 5P for a sniper rifle, 7P for an assault cannon, or 8P from a burst-fire HMG.

Someone with more than double the unaugmented human potential maximum strength hitting you with an axe should hurt a lot, yes.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #137 on: <09-17-19/1633:13> »
But honestly... should it hurt MORE than the unarmed attack? Would Juggernaut have done more damage than ripping Deadpool in half if he hit him with a combat axe instead?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #138 on: <09-17-19/1658:53> »
Also don’t forget that an assault cannon is a mildly scaled down tank cannon; 20-25 mm calibre, or about the same as a modern anti-aircraft gun. It’d leave an exit wound the size of your torso. Should any amount of getting punched exceed that?

Finstersang

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« Reply #139 on: <09-17-19/1721:04> »
But honestly... should it hurt MORE than the unarmed attack? Would Juggernaut have done more damage than ripping Deadpool in half if he hit him with a combat axe instead?

Not necessarily, but he also should not do significantly less. And bear in mind that we are not just talking about hyper-augmented Trolls with Strength 13-14 and Bone Lacing here. With a Strength of 3 and no additional damage helpers on top, you are already on par with an awfull lot of melee weapons, and your AR is likely already higher.

Adding the full strength/2 to the base damage scales up pretty damn high, true. Up to 12P, to be precise (5P Base Damage + 14/2 from a max-strength Troll). However, it would still only add 3-2 more damage to the already insane damage potential of a Str 14 Troll with maxed Bone Lacing (14/2 + 2 from the Bone Lacing = 9, +1 from Dermal Deposits if you GM allows it to stack). And that´s all without adding critical strike to the mix ::)

Adding [Strength - Base Damage]/2 (round up) to the weapon is a solution that scales a bit less extremely. An unaugmented Human with Strength 6 could raise the Damage of a Combat Axe by one, or the Damage of a Baseball Bat by 2. A Strength 14 Uber-Troll could deal 5+9/2=10 Damage with a Combat Axe (that´s 0-1 point of Damage more than what is already possible RAW with Bone Lacing!) or 3+11/2=9 Damage with a Basaball Bat. Sure, that´s pretty high, but it needs a lot of investment and doesn´t really exceed anything that´s already possible RAW. In fact, even with this houserule, bone lacing would still be the favourable option, since you will have a ridiculously high AR as well.

Also don’t forget that an assault cannon is a mildly scaled down tank cannon; 20-25 mm calibre, or about the same as a modern anti-aircraft gun. It’d leave an exit wound the size of your torso. Should any amount of getting punched exceed that?

Realisticly, no. From a balancing POV, it can be justified. And it´s a little bit less unrealistic if you assume that "any amount of getting punched" may translate into "getting ripped in half by a up mutated human with artificial Bones and Muscles" and not just to "you recieve a very hard punch".

One thing is for sure: That sentiment is still more believable than "luckily, the mutated human with artificial Bones and Muscles picked up a sledgehammer to hit you with, so he´s only doing half the damage"  ::)

Lormyr

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« Reply #140 on: <09-17-19/1722:45> »
Including ammunition types and firing mode, firearms damage ranges from 1P to 9P.

Strength scores range from 1-14. If all melee attacks DV were equal to base weapon plus 1/2 strength, it would work out quit well if those base DVs were:

Small weapons: DV0, but damage is P (knives, clubs, brass knuckles, ect.)
Medium weapons: DV1 (pretty much all 1 handed melee weapons)
Large weapons: DV2 (pretty much all 2 handed melee weapons)

I personally would even add an additional +1 or +2 down that board, primarily due to combat balance of melee doing a pinch more damage because ranged has every other advantage.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

wraith

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« Reply #141 on: <09-17-19/1729:02> »
But honestly... should it hurt MORE than the unarmed attack? Would Juggernaut have done more damage than ripping Deadpool in half if he hit him with a combat axe instead?

I mean, yes?  Leverage is a thing, and a heavy bit of metal on a stick hurting more than a punch is pretty non-controversial?

But honestly... should it hurt MORE than the unarmed attack? Would Juggernaut have done more damage than ripping Deadpool in half if he hit him with a combat axe instead?

If by 'mildly' scaled down you mean exponentially scaled down.  Modern tank main armaments are 120mm, and the rounds they fire are roughly the same size as a Panther cannon, if a bit shorter at 'only' 980mm and 18.6kg.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #142 on: <09-17-19/1800:16> »
Well at the super hero level the fist might be better as weapons would break in their hands before using half their strength. But, Max troll isn’t even Spider-Man strength it’s closer to captain America strength. My kind is blanking in 1-2 ton lift strength hero’s right now. FASERIP remarkable range. So yeah a combat axe troll should be more deadly than a trolls fist. Weapons may have to be reinforced for them a bit but there are racial cost mods for a reason.

Part of the problem as someone alluded to is even elven street sams with a 3 strength probably unarmed attacks are better than their katana attacks. I’m not saying bone density is required but I expect it will be on 95% of the street sams. 2+2 and your damage is katana and your AV is higher. And chances are it’s a freebie as you bought it for the 4 soak dice on the cheap. Probably at delta level.

Personally all the bone mods in the world at best should do is change your damage to physical. It’s just brass knucks. But that’s on 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e we well.

darthor45

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« Reply #143 on: <09-17-19/2041:18> »
But honestly... should it hurt MORE than the unarmed attack? Would Juggernaut have done more damage than ripping Deadpool in half if he hit him with a combat axe instead?

Should it hurt like hell when Juggernaut rips Deadpool in half?  Absolutely.  But when Colossus rips an axle off a ruined bus and smacks Juggernaut in the face, that should also hurt.  When Hulk swings his big axe at Thor he should send him flying across the arena to smash into the wall.

A giant Strength 14 troll doing catastrophic damage with his bare hands is a good thing.  But when that same troll hits you with something, it should probably also be catastrophic.

But this isn't just limited to super strong characters.  Let's take an elf who goes full Agility 7 and a Reaction 5 because he wants to have a strong Initiative.  He takes a Strength 3 because he doesn't want to just dump Strength so he can handle some Grappling and Wrest attempts, but it's not a focus.  This character has an Attack of 8 with his bare hands and a Damage of 2S.  This is on par with most melee weapons, so nothing too crazy, right?

But then let's take that character and start adding augmentations.  We're talking combat characters, after all, right?  We'll assume a heavily cybered street samurai concept  Well, you're going to be in a lot of fighting with that katana you're planning on using and you want to be able to take a hit.  Let's spring for some Bone Lacing.  We'll go big since we're planning to do a lot of fighting, so let's go with Titanium.  In addition to its defensive bonuses, this also turns your damage into Physical, adds +3 to your Attack rating and +2 to your damage.  So now, without any further modification, we have an Attack Rating of 11 and an Unarmed Damage of 4P.  Right off the bat, that's better Attack and equal damage to the katana you're going to be wielding as a high-Agility character.  And since you're using Close Combat for both actions, that Agility you invested in is going to be just as useful to you for punching as it is slicing.

The only advantages the sword still has going is access to the Shank Edge Action and probably a Specialty in Blades for two extra dice if you plan to be good at that sword.  So there's still some reason using a blade over punching, but they're easily on par now.

But that's just one augmentation.  We're a street samurai, right?  Let's add on some Wired Reflexes, or some Reaction Enhancers.  Or maybe both since they can work together as long as they're both wireless.  Or play it safe from the hackers and go with Synaptic Boosters for the same effect.  Those are going to push your Unarmed Attack rating higher, but the katana's going to stay at 10.  A little Muscle Replacement or Muscle Augmentation is also going to boost your Unarmed, but not your katana.  At what point does the extra two dice to attack with and access to one Edge Action get outweighed by simple stats?

Unless you intentionally gimp your Strength/avoid Bone Lacing or other similar powers, then even the high Agility characters are going to suffer from their Unarmed being a more viable option than their weapon of choice.

penllawen

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« Reply #144 on: <09-20-19/0701:26> »
And I also like the fact that a street samurai will now benefit from switching from an assault rifle or sniper rifle to a katana in CQC (even with mediocre Strength)
I don’t see how that is true. A Strength 3 / Agility 9 / Reaction 9 firearms-focussed character with mid-tier bone lacing already does katana-grade damage with their fists. The katana has AR 10, their fists have AR 12. So why are they bothering to carry the katana - which can be seen, and will attract attention, and takes a Major action to ready - when they could just start punching instead?

darthor45

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« Reply #145 on: <09-20-19/1031:35> »
So, the more I think about it and stress test things, the more I'm becoming convinced that Bone Lacing/Bone Density may be the bigger culprit in the melee/unarmed disparity, as Shinobi Killfist pointed out earlier.

I know this might be a Shadowrun sacrilege, but hear me out a minute.

If we take out the Unarmed bonuses and just say that Bone Lacing/Bone Density only make your damage Physical, the system becomes a little more balanced.

A super strong, Str 14 character would do 7P. A combat axe is 5P. A Minor Action to call the shot raises this to 9P or 7P, but if you have a specialty in Blades (I'm assuming a specialty in Blades because if your specialty was in Unarmed, you wouldn't be mad about that axe in the first place) and burn a single Edge for Shank, this becomes 7P with the axe while using the same dice you would use to punch, while that 9P also means losing 4 dice. That's fairly competitive and still justifies a big troll carrying that axe.

The Str 3-4 elf with a sword is only going to be doing 2P with a punch, making his sword or katana the more damaging option.  Even the Str 5+ sword elf will be doing about the same damage as his sword, but with dice and Edge, there's reasons both would be useful, giving him options.

I think the unarmed bonuses from Bone Lacing/Bone Density might be an artifact from older editions that doesn't work with the changes to weapons.

Now... what this doesn't fix is the disparity in Attack Rating. A fully augmented Str 14/Reaction 10 (either Str 13/Reaction 10 or Srt 14/Reaction 9 is available out of the box without a whole lot of struggle if you do pick the right priorities) character could punch some dragons without granting the dragon Edge. That katana is always going to do 10 Atrack.

Finstersang

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« Reply #146 on: <09-20-19/1042:43> »
The bone augmentations enhance the problem, but they are not the culprit. It makes sense that you deal more damage with bone lacing than without, and it´s at least not totally unbelievable if that´s sometimes enough to make some smaller melee weapons obsolete.

The core problem is that unarmed scales with Strength twofold (Base Damage and Attack rating) while Melee weapons don´t scale at all. It´s a terrible choice that should note have made it in the finished (hard to call it that...) published rulebook.

penllawen

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« Reply #147 on: <09-20-19/1043:19> »
I agree with all of that, I don’t think the +DV for bone lacing is important - it’s plenty worth getting for the soak effects. And it’s well out of balance in SR6e. Most ranged weapons had their damage values divided by about 1/3 in 6e; but unarmed damage and bone lacing’s +DV we’re both only halved, and both round up, too.

penllawen

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« Reply #148 on: <09-20-19/1258:07> »
And I also like the fact that a street samurai will now benefit from switching from an assault rifle or sniper rifle to a katana in CQC (even with mediocre Strength)
I don’t see how that is true. A Strength 3 / Agility 9 / Reaction 9 firearms-focussed character with mid-tier bone lacing already does katana-grade damage with their fists. The katana has AR 10, their fists have AR 12. So why are they bothering to carry the katana - which can be seen, and will attract attention, and takes a Major action to ready - when they could just start punching instead?
OMG I just realised.

Speaking of the idea that 6e is good because it powers up iconic weapons like katanas to the point where they are useful for some characters who previously couldn't benefit from them... Hand razors only do 2P. They make no sense for almost anyone. A character with Str 3 and Bone Lacing 1 does more damage by punching. You can't get much more iconic than Molly Millions, the O.G. razorgirl. But she doesn't reasonably exist in Shadowrun 6e.

darthor45

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« Reply #149 on: <09-20-19/1312:05> »
The bone augmentations enhance the problem, but they are not the culprit. It makes sense that you deal more damage with bone lacing than without, and it´s at least not totally unbelievable if that´s sometimes enough to make some smaller melee weapons obsolete.

The core problem is that unarmed scales with Strength twofold (Base Damage and Attack rating) while Melee weapons don´t scale at all. It´s a terrible choice that should note have made it in the finished (hard to call it that...) published rulebook.

But does it still make sense for bone augmentations to do extra damage?  They're already turning your punch from Stun to Physical, which is a good enough reflection of "I hit harder than normal" all on its own.  And without that extra damage factored in, Str/2 damage actually seems to scale into the existing system just fine in terms of Damage.

Is it the only problem?  No.  But it's a big one.  A very big one.  Taking that out solves a LOT of the disparity.  And frankly, like the system or not, it is the current system, and it's a lot easier to take away bone augment damage boosts than it is to go into the ENTIRE system of weapons stats and rescale everything or go back and redo it to factor Strength back into Melee.  A tweak is a lot better than a re-write.

Now, as I said, the OTHER big problem is the scaling Attack on that I'll agree with you.  Scaling that based on Strength + Reaction causes some serious issues.  It has symmetry with the Magic and Matrix systems of combining to Attributes to get your Attack Rating (ie: Magic + Tradition Attribute and Attack + Sleaze), and I'm pretty sure they have similar origins in the design process.  However, once you factor in augmentations, the numbers that doing this for Unarmed Combat spits out are... frankly crazy.

The Magic Attack Rating is going to top out at 14 pre-Initiation and Matrix is going to top out at 18 with current listed equipment.  The Matrix one seems a little high, but when you consider that Matrix Defense can top out at 21 right now, it's internally balanced.

Current Unarmed Attack Rating tops out at 27 (with bone augments working as RAW, but this only goes down to 24 if you take the proposed action of taking bone augments out of the math).  Two of the three sample Dracoforms have Defenses listed of 26 and 24.  So top level Unarmed Attack Rating could punch a dragon and not give them Edge.  With that in mind, either Unarmed Damage needs some sort of fixed Attack Rating, or the scaling system needs to be dialed back a LOT, because it's way out of the range of other weapons.

Scaling Attack Rating, I don't think it can be solved with just a tweak.