NEWS

6WE Strength useless for melee users?

  • 195 Replies
  • 33674 Views

Hephaestus

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
  • "Milk Run" is a mighty weird way to spell TPK
« Reply #105 on: <09-10-19/2018:39> »
So what would that look like to you, ideally? Tuning a troll with a sledgehammer somewhere between the 7P DV autocannon and the 12P DV anti-vehicular rocket?

Damn straight, it would. If Señor Supersledge the STR 14 Troll swings a sledgehammer at something, it better look like a 16 DV frag grenade went off. He should be able to play chicken with a full-size car, and knock that fragger off the road with one solid swing. If you're going to skew that hard, it should result in some truly spectacular (and terrifying) results.

And as DVs go, the fact that an AV rocket does less on-target damage than a frag rocket is just plain stupid.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9920
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #106 on: <09-10-19/2347:52> »
Well, when it comes to non-combatants, you rarely need to actually fill a CM to eliminate them as a threat.

You shot/hit the PR0 Janitor for a paltry 3 damage? Well, yeah he's still alive but he'll still probably surrender and beg to not be killed.  Take his commlink, ziptie him so he doesn't wander off and verbally warn someone, and move on.
But that would mean following the rules and being satisfied with not being murderhobos.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
« Reply #107 on: <09-11-19/0638:53> »
Well, when it comes to non-combatants, you rarely need to actually fill a CM to eliminate them as a threat.

You shot/hit the PR0 Janitor for a paltry 3 damage? Well, yeah he's still alive but he'll still probably surrender and beg to not be killed.  Take his commlink, ziptie him so he doesn't wander off and verbally warn someone, and move on.
Bold of you to assume that murdering the janitor wasn't the objective of the run.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #108 on: <09-11-19/0652:31> »
I’ll say my issue with the lower damage isn’t the lower damage itself. I’ve said it before it’s I don’t like how without rules mastery you need so many hits to kill a rando in one shot.
Well, when it comes to non-combatants, you rarely need to actually fill a CM to eliminate them as a threat.
Does your table spend more time fighting combatants, or more time fighting non-combatants? Unless it's the former, I think SK's point stands.

And yes, 6e has rules for "surrendered or other wise down/out" based on professional rating etc. But there's still plenty of common circumstances in-game where there's a big difference between "down" and "dead", not the least associated with the opponent's ability to raise alarms and be witnesses. So again, I think SK's point still stands.

Incidentally, according to CRB6e pg203, it isn't clear-cut how that rule works, which runs contrary to the airy manner in which it is being quoted in this thread to dismiss concerns about changed lethality in SR6 compared to SR5. The CRB says "You take their Professional Rating and compare it to the number of damage boxes they’ve taken. Once the total boxes exceed the Professional Rating, make a Composure test (p. 67) to see if they bolt." No threshold is given for this test that I can see. Beat cops (PR3) roll 5 dice on this test, HTR (PR6) roll 8. Which means they could easily succeed.

(The combat example on pg106 conflicts with this, and ignores the test, and says "This is also the point at which you compare the enemy’s injury level to their Professional Rating and determine if they are still in the fight. The Eye-Fiver leader has a Professional Rating of 3 and 7 boxes of damage, meaning it’s time to either sit on the ground and bleed or stumble away, because he’s done with this fight." More sloppy editing.)

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #109 on: <09-11-19/1024:46> »
Got the drop on them or they're otherwise helpless?  Point of Edge.  Attack Rating vs. Jumpsuit?  Point of Edge.  2 free edge, do your Knockout blow or Shiv and carry on please.  Taking down PR 0 helpless and/or  unaware targets is mechanically simple and PCs have several high probability options to choose from.

See also, Narcojet injection Bolts or gas grenades. 

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
« Reply #110 on: <09-11-19/1040:12> »
Yes again with rules mastery you can easily handle PR 0  targets especially if they are unaware. Great how about PR 3 in a fight how many gimmicks do you have to pull to do it. Why isn’t a highly trained super humanly agile runner with a pistol enough on its own without those gimmicks.

And narcojet yeah it’s damage is crazy high given the soak pools in this game. I guess we could also throw a grenade.


Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6467
« Reply #111 on: <09-11-19/1040:54> »
Just have blades attack with AGI + Melee, and clubs STR + Melee. That's it.
This is also how it is done in some other RPGs (of which I guess GreedFall is the latest example).

House Rule that you use;
1. Close Combat + Agility (for blades and whips)
2. Close Combat + Strength (for blunts)

That way a Katana will be more deadly in the hands of an Elf while a Sledgehammer will be more deadly in the hands of a Troll.

Seems fair enough?


Going one step further with this you could probably also House Rule unarmed combat to deal a fixed DV of 2(S) and let the practitioner choose between linking it with Strength (for harder martial arts such as Boxing, TaeKwanDo or Karate) or Agility (for softer martial arts such as  Aikido, Tai Chi, and Judo).

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #112 on: <09-11-19/1057:03> »
Yes again with rules mastery you can easily handle PR 0  targets especially if they are unaware. Great how about PR 3 in a fight how many gimmicks do you have to pull to do it. Why isn’t a highly trained super humanly agile runner with a pistol enough on its own without those gimmicks.

And narcojet yeah it’s damage is crazy high given the soak pools in this game. I guess we could also throw a grenade.

So PR3 is a non-trivial threat to a runner.  One shotting a PR3 NPC isn't going to be a given for most Runners.  A Street Samurai with an AK-97 and Explosive Ammo?  Sure.  Narrow Burst the poor bastard into bloody chunks. 

And I consider things like Knockout Blow, Shiv, ect basic combat options.  Not gimmicks.  Like it or not 6E combat is balanced around PCs using Edge Actions on most attacks.  Totally okay to not like that.  But non-grenade spam combat should be using Edge frequently to eliminate threats quickly.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
« Reply #113 on: <09-11-19/1126:26> »
PR 3 in a scale of 1-10 should be trivial. Looking at PR3 stats they should be trivial. These are not the enemies you should need to use a AK with explosive ammo and a narrow burst to drop in one shot.

I get that some people like the explosive ammo called shot long burst style of game play.

Me I think I shoot the guy should be 95% of the complexity. Put all the complexity you want into character design. But once you start rolling dice I want it quick and easy. Combat options should be to add flavor and unusual circumstances. Called shots should never be for increased damage that’s what your dice pool is for.

And edge may be a basic combat maneuver now but against PR3 enemies you shouldn’t need it. You are likely more than doubling their pools. One shotting one should be a given for the combat specialists. I’m not expecting the decker or mage to do it but the adept or street sam should. And honestly given the math in pools if you can’t one shot a PR3 guy you won’t a PR1 guy either as they are probably only taking one more damage.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #114 on: <09-11-19/1128:36> »
And I consider things like Knockout Blow, Shiv, ect basic combat options. Not gimmicks.

Like Shinobi I also find the edge actions and some of the general actions to be really gimmicky.

Like it or not 6E combat is balanced around PCs using Edge Actions on most attacks.  Totally okay to not like that.

This is pretty much what it boils down to. 6e is playable, and roughly as broken ("balanced") as 5e imo. It's just a very different animal than 5e, and that is going to be hard to impossible for some of us (myself included) to appreciate it in comparison. Fixing the issues with strength in melee and armor would go a long way for myself personally, but I also just don't care for the new edge system either, which is central to the mechanics.

But non-grenade spam combat should be using Edge frequently to eliminate threats quickly.

That is part of the problem with the system though. It was designed for characters to frequently be employing edge actions and boosts, but the resource gushes out far more quickly than it fills in. The pace is not sustainable.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #115 on: <09-11-19/1141:21> »
Called shots should never be for increased damage that’s what your dice pool is for.
I think I've said this before but I don't quite understand the thinking behind called shots in SR5 or 6. Surely the "I pulled off a good shot that does more damage" is already mechanically represented by rolling well (perhaps helped along by Edge)?

6e is playable, and roughly as broken ("balanced") as 5e imo. It's just a very different animal than 5e... but I also just don't care for the new edge system either, which is central to the mechanics.
My issue with Edge isn't the idea per se, it just feels too abstracted from cause ("I earned Edge because I had armour") to effect ("I shot the guy good.")

This, I think, is characteristically different from 5e -  I can't think of anything in 5e that feels as disconnected as Edge goes. 6e Edge is almost as abstract as something you'd get in narrative game like The Sprawl, but it's surrounded with the usual simulationist Shadowrun stuff like two pages of gun accessories each with bespoke rules. It feels awkward and out of place.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #116 on: <09-11-19/1152:56> »
If you don't like the NuEdge system in 6th, it's not going to be your favorite edition.  It seems too central to gameplay to ignore.  And by the time you're done houseruling it you're probably just better off with 5th. 

Totally understandable.  Personally, I play and run Missions so in a year it's what I'll be playing and running.  5th edition remains my personal preference though. 

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #117 on: <09-11-19/1158:02> »
Agreed. But conversely, I think it's not too difficult to extract large chunks of 6e and graft them onto 5e. I'm writing documents to that end about the action economy and Matrix rules.

Edit - which obviously I'd be happy to share in time, should people be interested.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
« Reply #118 on: <09-11-19/1244:21> »
If you don't like the NuEdge system in 6th, it's not going to be your favorite edition.  It seems too central to gameplay to ignore.  And by the time you're done houseruling it you're probably just better off with 5th. 

Totally understandable.  Personally, I play and run Missions so in a year it's what I'll be playing and running.  5th edition remains my personal preference though.

I like the concept behind it but not it’s execution. One main thing I don’t like are edge actions. To me those would have been better represented by spending more minor actions. Like take anticipation. If it was shoot multiple targets 1 minor action and for each extra minor action spent one target is rolled at it’s full die pool. I’d be more for it. It gives extra actions and street sams more oomph for having having wired reflexes. When it’s edge everyone can do it and shooting 4 people quick doesn’t feel very magey just because I’m a decent agility elf and took firearms as a skill (though I also don’t think the improved initiative spell should exist, admittedly I’d ditch the new focus burst and over clock first those don’t like)

Typhus

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 386
« Reply #119 on: <09-11-19/1401:30> »
I'm also not a fan of the Edge part. 

It's too baked into everything, and not consistent in it's application.  Like much of the game there's way too much load placed on the GM to support the parts they didn't/couldn't develop.  The menu of Edge options and goofing around is too high, and causes near as much time loss as a simpler modifier system would have.  Then there's "Edge Actions", "Matrix Edge Actions", but no "Magic Edge Actions" or "Rigging Edge Actions".  Your gear, qualities, critter powers all impact it.  Then when you try to talk some things through, the rules discussions on interpreting them read like Kirk's Fizzbin explanations.  Haphazard is how I would characterize the system as a feel.  It also feel disconnected from the character's actions.  I'm not a fan of gating everyday combat options behind resource spends.  I should be able to roll to trip, disarm or make called shots any time.  Edge should allow specific outcomes I couldn't even attempt otherwise.

I will say that some of the new dice tricks might be salvageable as a backport or conversion option to an older edition.  When I look at what I like vs what I don't, the like list is very small.  There's only a couple of items that are really strong and not just at the "meh, yeah ok" level.  The main thing I appreciate is the action economy.  That has a home.  Conditions were already on my own radar, but their inclusion in 6E was a good call.  They are just way underused in 6E.  They could solve gear hacking and grenade damage in a heartbeat. The dislike list is about 3x as long as the like list, so it's not worth a fix attempt for me.  When I have tried to work on possible fixes, it breaks something else.  The "balance" is so tenuous if you pull on one thread, other parts tend to fall apart or require such an exhaustive rewrite that it would be easier to go with a wheel that's already spinning elsewhere.  Effort =/= Reward.