[Michael Chandra]

Frag, Shadowrun is finally actually available in the Netherlands. Shops literally cannot order SR5, but now I can order through the FLGS (hello No Future and Streetpedia!) and they actually have Book, Box, Boardgame on the shelves.

[skalchemist]

Frag, Shadowrun is finally actually available in the Netherlands. Shops literally cannot order SR5, but now I can order through the FLGS (hello No Future and Streetpedia!) and they actually have Book, Box, Boardgame on the shelves.

Michael, is this in Dutch?  Or in English?  I'm curious.  I'm guessing its the English version, as a translation would be a major undertaking.

[Michael Chandra]

In English. With Fifth and Fourth, the Dutch CGL distributor basically refused to touch Shadowrun so no way to order unless from other countries and at the bottom of the priority list.

[Noble Drake]

What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.

Casuals infatuated by something shiny and new. They'll play a few games before getting bored of it and when they go back to their D&D campaign those products will just sit on a bookshelf and collect dust.

...who hurt you?

[Ghost Rigger]

Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm just calling it as I see it. As you said, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online. Those who do would be more heavily invested/interested their games, so if the  majority of online talk about 6e is either "don't play it, it's a dumpster fire", "thank you for coming to my 3 hour TEDtalk on why it's a dumpster fire" or deafening silence, I can only conclude that it's only the casuals who actually like and purchase 6e products, not people who liked Shadowrun for what it was before. Of course, increasing Shadowrun's casual appeal was one of CGL's design goals for 6e, and there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals so long as you don't commit that cardinal sin of.....well, you know. Alienating your core audience.

Need I remind everyone that Emerald Grid imploded after 6e came out? As expected from a reddit community, most of the GMs were talentless hacks who couldn't design their own runs if their lives depended on it and had to rely on SRMs and other prewritten modules. With no more new 5e modules to come, the community was doomed to die of stagnation unless it converted everything to 6e. So did the GMs and players, some of whom had played characters long enough to rack up over a thousand Karma, convert to 6e? No. One of the largest Shadowrun communities, which arguably contained some of the most dedicated players, decided that playing 6e was worse than not having a Shadowrun game at all.

[Noble Drake]

Don't project your knotted knickers upon me, kind fellow.

Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.

And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"

[Ghost Rigger]

Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.

Unverifiable, and if true still does not outweigh the mass rejection of 6e seen in various online communities. Of course I can't verify anything about myself either, so this is a moot avenue of discussion.

And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"

An "elitist" who says "there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals"? I suppose I'm "entitled" for adding that "don't alienate your core audience" clause.

[Leith]

Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm just calling it as I see it. As you said, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online. Those who do would be more heavily invested/interested their games, so if the  majority of online talk about 6e is either "don't play it, it's a dumpster fire", "thank you for coming to my 3 hour TEDtalk on why it's a dumpster fire" or deafening silence, I can only conclude that it's only the casuals who actually like and purchase 6e products, not people who liked Shadowrun for what it was before. Of course, increasing Shadowrun's casual appeal was one of CGL's design goals for 6e, and there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals so long as you don't commit that cardinal sin of.....well, you know. Alienating your core audience.

Need I remind everyone that Emerald Grid imploded after 6e came out? As expected from a reddit community, most of the GMs were talentless hacks who couldn't design their own runs if their lives depended on it and had to rely on SRMs and other prewritten modules. With no more new 5e modules to come, the community was doomed to die of stagnation unless it converted everything to 6e. So did the GMs and players, some of whom had played characters long enough to rack up over a thousand Karma, convert to 6e? No. One of the largest Shadowrun communities, which arguably contained some of the most dedicated players, decided that playing 6e was worse than not having a Shadowrun game at all.

CITATION NEEDED

[adzling]

I've been playing Shadowrun since 1e and abhor the dumpster fire that is 6e.

So does every Shadowrun player I have talked with except a very few that i know from this forum, and I can count those folks on one hand.

So yes, I would agree with Ghost Rigger that 6e alienated a huge subset of Shadowrun's core audience.
The sales figures on Drive Thru bear this out.
As does the total lack of conversion to 6e for the living communities (not just emerald grid).

Face it, excepting a tiny minority 6e is not what the existing Shadowrun players wanted nor care for.

Time will tell if a groundswell of noobs are brought into the game due to the "simplification".

So far it certainly seems to not be so.

[Leith]

Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.

Unverifiable, and if true still does not outweigh the mass rejection of 6e seen in various online communities. Of course I can't verify anything about myself either, so this is a moot avenue of discussion.

And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"

An "elitist" who says "there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals"? I suppose I'm "entitled" for adding that "don't alienate your core audience" clause.

You can't say, "casuals can have their fun but the true fans must be appeased," and not sound like an elitist, bub.

You're even questioning whether Noble Drake is really a longtime shadowrun consumer. It's like a caricature. The only way to be more elitist would be to tell people they must prove their fan cred or they can't buy SR products.

[Leith]

I've been playing Shadowrun since 1e and abhor the dumpster fire that is 6e.

So does every Shadowrun player I have talked with except a very few that i know from this forum, and I can count those folks on one hand.

So yes, I would agree with Ghost Rigger that 6e alienated a huge subset of Shadowrun's core audience.
The sales figures on Drive Thru bear this out.
As does the total lack of conversion to 6e for the living communities (not just emerald grid).

Face it, excepting a tiny minority 6e is not what the existing Shadowrun players wanted nor care for.

Time will tell if a groundswell of noobs are brought into the game due to the "simplification".

So far it certainly seems to not be so.

Still conjecture. I think we're all happy to accept hearsay, but this is not very compelling.

[adzling]

The sales figures on drive thru are not conjecture or hearsay.

Nice try though.

[Leith]

The sales figures on drive thru are not conjecture or hearsay.

A tiny sample of data leads to conjecture...

Nice try though.

[FastJack]

Time to go to respective corners and take a break before someone says something that requires more attention from the mods.

[calibur12001]

I run and play on Roll20.net. I ran a few Anarchy games and an SR5. Roll20 has a significant member base, and, as of this post, no one has bothered to create an in-game SR6 character sheet. There are sheets for SR2, SR5, and Anarchy. This tells me that no one is playing 6 on Roll20. That's not a good sign for a brand new edition, of a highly popular IP, that's been out for several months.