[adzling]

Iron things can be done, however it would have to wait until next edition.

I am on the errata team and we can fix stuff that is clearly not working as intended but this is RAW and RAI it's just not good game design.

[Reaver]

I guess this is why the Shadowrun 5e rules are in such sad shape.

The writers put down their pencils (okay, stopped typing on their keyboards), and looked over what they have created.

"Hmmmm...  As written, these rules require that all players 'do the right thing,' and that all GMs are experienced, and confident enough to smack down any player who doesn't..."

"They're flawless!!  Ship them!"

It makes me ask "If the rules require that all players 'play nice,' and that all GMs make good judgement calls... what are customers paying for then?"

Most of the arguments here make the case that everyone would be better off using something like Starfinder (without the spaceships - or with if that is how you roll).  Although, to be fair, there is no spirit summoning in Starfinder.

And not only all of that...  But that we can't expect that anyone can be arsed to do anything about it because "balance can never happen."

So do explain to me, what exactly are customers paying for?

Well, first off you are being pandantic.

There will NEVER be a 'perfect' set of rules: Simply because the written word is interpretive.

Case in point: society has rules, we call them laws, and yet people break/ignore them every day.
We have building codes, rules for building shit, ywt people ignore them too.
Look on these forums, more then a few people try the argument "the book doesn't say I can't fly at will so obviously I can!" (Pandantic example yes, BUT that very point was argued for 6 pages on these forums).


Now, I am not saying the rules are perfect - Spirits know they could use some polish. But at the same time, take a little reponsibilty for your own enjoyment!
The books are NOT written like a code manual because 99% of people wouldn't want to read a rulebook like that! And IF you want to, I can provide you with a codebook to read...

The other consideration is price. Sure it would be nice if the rules covered everything, but you cam't bind a 4000 page book like some people insist the rule book should be, not to mention how expensive they would be!

I am going to assume you are not fammiliar with electricity nor the AEC/CEC:

The principles of electricity are well known and documented. The AEC/CEC get updated every 3 years. Requiring us in the profession to buy and learn the new code every time at a cost $200 each.

Why? Because after 60 fucking years, 40,000 adminitrators, uncounted millions of government and industry funding, they still can write a 'fool proof' code.



Fucking fools fucking shit up....

[Kiirnodel]

There's been a lot of discussion in the last 12 or so hours, and I'm not going to even attempt to address every point, but I will try to touch on a few key topics that I think might be important.

First: The idea that a straight out of chargen mage can do massive binding with little to no effort.

Yes, a chargen mage can have 14 dice in binding, that's 6 ranks and a specialization. That isn't an insignificant devotion on a character archetype. I've seen players making magicians have trouble working out their skill points without putting any points into summoning at all. That also doesn't include the ranks in Summoning you're going to need to be able to get the spirits in the first place.

And to top it all off, 14 dice to bind a force 6 spirit only averages a single hit two-thirds of the time. There's no guarantee of success, and at drain equal to double the spirit's hits and 3,000¥ an attempt, it isn't a throw-away action.

The rules don't discourage this sort of action, therefore it is expected.

I won't repeat my notion that this sort of statement is fallacious (it's already been stated by others). Instead I will point out that the rules have actually already been shifting away from this sort of support. I haven't been playing Shadowrun as long as some, but I did play back in 4e and I've noticed some changes that have happened. In 4th edition, the action to call spirits from standby let the summoner call any number of bound spirits of the same type. Back then it really was *snap* I have an army of up to 8 Force 6 Fire Spirits and they are coming for you.

That addendum was notably removed from 5th edition, which means it is a separate simple action for each spirit you want to call in from standby. Now, if you want to send in a big army of spirits you need to either a) spend a series of Simple actions calling up each spirit, then a simple action to command them all at once, or b) Take two Simple actions to call and command each spirit, and the spirits move in at the rate of 1 per Pass that the summoner has. Either way, it gives plenty of chance for a) magical security to notice a big collection of spirits being called in or b) notice the spirits materializing and neutralize the threat (mage).

Considering the fact that most combats that I've seen last maybe 2-3 Passes (not Turns), most spirit armies wouldn't even have a chance to have acted, let alone do any serious damage...

I thought there was more that I wanted to discuss, but I'm not sure there was anything else significant.
Personally, between Background and Spirit Index, coupled with the resources necessary to be consistently good at Binding is enough to discourage trying to use the massive horde of spirits. There just isn't the action economy to set it up for most purposes. A lot of people over look the time it takes to call in the spirits from Standby, in which case you have to ask the question of how that magician isn't being called out for walking around with 6 spirits following him in Astral space...

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Well, first off you are being pandantic.

Not to be pedantic, but are you suggesting I am being pedantic?  As in, "insisting that we follow the rules exactly?"  If not, I don't get what your point it.

If so, I'm not sure what your point is. 


Here is my point.  At chargen, a character can not start with an Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle.  Why?  It isn't because it is too expensive.  It is pretty "well balanced" against the fact that isn't fragging concealable so everyone knows what the character is carrying.  So why?

Maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit here, but I am assuming it is because it would bring too much power to the game right out of the gate.  It is an attempt at "balance."

On the other hand, a Mage can come out of chargen with 5 Force 6 Spirits bound with 5 services each.  This does assume a Charisma of 5, and a desire to spend 25 Karma on bound Spirits.  Each of those spirits is quite capable of being more capable in mundane combat that any of the other characters.  Not every character mind you, but a number.  Those Spirits are the "little black dress" of combat power in that they are "appropriate" nearly every where thanks to there not being any technological way to detect them.  Sure, there are ways.  Allegedly those ways are exceedingly rare (less than 1% of the population).

On the other hand, what is the technological equivalent?
A device that a mundane can deploy that is capable of being more capable in mundane combat that can be hidden in the back pocket?

There is none.

So where is the attempt at balance there?

There is none.  Not even a feeble attempt.  All because "GMs should take care of it."

Bulldrek.

[Jack_Spade]

There is one: The ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade Launcher is capable of fireing a short burst of 3 HE grenades, delivering 32P AP-4, which is incidentally my prefered way to counter hordes of materializing spirits.

[Plastic-Man]

There is one: The ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade Launcher is capable of fireing a short burst of 3 HE grenades, delivering 32P AP-4, which is incidentally my prefered way to counter hordes of materializing spirits.

A weapon that if had instead been directed at the players would instantly turn them into spirits then it's not an answer to the balance problem.

An arms race is not a solution, it's a symptom of a problem.

[adzling]

it's pretty clear that without GM fiat the rules for binding, as written, are broken/ open to abuse/ not balanced (take your pick).

so far no one has offered a rational for why you should be able to bind 4-8 force 5-6 spirits out of chargen.

therefore there is no reason to include this capability.

while this is something that would have to be revised in 6e (if Catalyst comes to their senses) we do have some very good ideas on house rules so far.

1). Our table uses: total force of spirits a summoner can use at any one time = (magic+initiate grade)x2.

2). Marcus had a nice idea about requiring each spirit type to be different and enforcing the restrictions on what each tradition uses as a combat spirit. This effectively permits the potential over-use of utility type powers (movement & concealment im looking at you) but would restrict combat uses of spirit armies.

3). anyone else got any other house rules/ ideas you want to add to this list for posterity?

cheers for the discussion, happy we have been able to keep it civil despite some strong feelings on all sides.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

3). anyone else got any other house rules/ ideas you want to add to this list for posterity?

Well, I don't know if it fits this topic specifically, but Finstersang had an interesting house rule for fixing Riggers that I'd like to give a shot someday.  I don't want to speak for Finstersang though.

[adzling]

i was talking about spirits and binding Iron!

[Iron Serpent Prince]

i was talking about spirits and binding Iron!

Heh.

I get that.  However, if Spirits are nerfed a bit, and at the same time drones are buffed, then the Binding rules as written might not matter so much.

I can't say, as I've yet to try the houserule.


As for my part, I've been thinking on it and the only thing I could come up with is that Binding spirits gets progressively more expensive.  Say, 50% more for each spirit after the first.

So, every summoner can Bind one spirit just like it reads in the book.
The second bound Spirit (at the same time) costs 150% of the book cost.
The third, 200% and so on.

This would also apply to re-Binding.  So, if a Summoner has 4 Spirits bound, and wants to re-bind one of them, it costs 250% of what it normally would.

Far from elegant, and might do nothing for the issue.  Still, it is all I have on the topic.

[Kiirnodel]

Why should it be possible to bind 4-8 spirits at chargen?

So that a magician focused on spirits can be prepared for many eventualities.

I've played a spirit-focused character before that kept his Charisma in spirits bound (granted he was only a Cha 4 [Logic-based tradition]). Each of the spirits was a different type, so that he had a variety of power options available at a moment's notice without needing to go through the trouble of summoning if he were in a pinch.

And it happened at least once that I can remember. I had summoned up one spirit to Conceal the team while attempting an infiltration/extraction (this was back in 4e, so it worked a bit differently, didn't go away when some people got spotted). When things started to go south, I called up my bound Air spirit to deal with some incoming drones, while also calling up a bound earth spirit to aid my team in their escape (Bind power on standby while rappelling down the side of a 20+ story building). And I think I might have called a third bound to aid sorcery on an emergency healing spell in the middle of combat too (been awhile).

In any case, I certainly didn't overwhelm or outclass the combatants (on either side), and I wouldn't call any of what I did particularly broken. And (the cherry) I could have done very little of that using standard sorcery. I was primarily utilizing spirit powers that created unique effects to help my team complete the mission safely.


I also still think you're overestimating a chargen mage's ability to bind a whole slew of spirits effectively, while not being considered "highly invested" in the process. Like I said, I played a spirit-focused character and bringing out 3 of my bound spirits on a single mission was a considerable investment on my part, and they were only Force 5's, if I had needed to rebind all of them I think I would have cut my earnings on that mission down to a quarter. And that one encounter wasn't even the whole mission, it was just scene 1.


If your answer to an encounter is calling in a half dozen high force fire spirits to rain fire down upon everything, that's sort of like walking up on a place in Heavy Milspec with an Auto-Assault 16 (or a fully kitted out Ares Alpha). The opposition might not be able to do anything about it the first time it happens, but you keep doing it and you'll get that Notorious reputation that will change the way security sets up for you.

[adzling]

Thank you for Thoughtful post.

Lots of good stuff here

This is a good example of how I believe a spirit "army" could be used without dominating combat.

However it's worth noting that you did in fact dominate your table's extraction by being able to summon and use those spirits at once.

On your last point comparing spirits to milspec equipped runners that's kind of the point here: those milspec equipped runners cannot gain entry into any place surreptitiously. They would immediately be stopped/ noticed wherever they go.

Whereas the spirit army equipped mage can go anywhere, through any security, and even enter warded areas without anyone detecting he has a spirit army. Then he can summon them (even inside a warded area) and set them loose to create havoc/ do whatever. It's like an invisible, unstoppable, "i win" button that can be called in at any time.

This makes a mockery of any security setup you care to employ.

[evilaustintom]

Anyone that tells you spirits are balanced is, frankly, nuts. A mage can easily have 6-8 force 6 bound spirits very soon out of charged. With a summon that up to 9 spirits at force 6. That means a good mage (not even a dedicated summoner) can solo any mission almost straight out of charge if they do it carefully.
…
Actually the core book and sg say nothing about binding itself being a problem. So that seems to be in your head.
…
I reread that before I posted kiir . If you do that carefully you’ll see my comments up thread still stand.
…
Please qoute the rest of the paragraph sentence so people don’t think your deceptively editing. Stuff
…
Another way to look at this is to ask the question: “what does having a spirit army at your beck and call (on top of all your other powerful mage powers) add to the game?”
Answer: nothing.

Therefore why not change the rules to reflect better gameplay?
…
Imagine if street Sam had a widget that was invisible to all security and let them summon at will up to 8 mercenaries who are armed to the teeth, can fly and immune to normal weapons🤔. Would that be cool?
Answer: no that’s stupid.
…
So agin, I’d respectfully ask, what does the spirit army add to the game?

Answer: nothing.
…
No one has answered my question: why do mages need to be able to bind up to cha in spirits in the first place?
…
you DONT care if you can make a mockery of any security setup by insta-porting a squad of elite mercenaries into any location?

you DONT care that any incarcerated mage can just summon his posse of spirits to save him without any way for security to stop him short of rendering him permanently unconscious?
…
Also you conveniently ignore my points re: Riggers and Adepts.
…
the only reason NOT to fix it would be because the ability for a mage to have a spirit posse is important to srun.

So far NOT ONE person has offered a rational for why that is so.
…
Which brings me back to the point I keep bringing up but no one has an answer for: why should we keep binding as is when it clearly adds nothing to the game and is to be discouraged from being used?

No one has, so far, provided a good answer for that.
so far no one has offered a rational for why you should be able to bind 4-8 force 5-6 spirits out of chargen.

That’s in your head…
…You’re deceptively editing stuff…
…That’s stupid…
…you DON’T care…
…you conveniently ignore…

You probably don't see it, but you're coming off as pretty antagonistic.  Are you willing to ease off the throttle, there?  It's clear you feel passionate about this subject, but there's no need to be so aggressive.  Folks can easily miss this kind of language, and not register what can do to a conversation that you may be legitimately trying to engage in (and not just come off as a jerk).  If you want people's attention and consideration, start from a position of respect.  Just a suggestion.

As to the 'No one has answered this question'...well, you answered it yourself - a couple of times - with 'nothing'.  If you were really looking for an answer, I would recommend not lambasting anyone else's thoughts ahead of time.

If I were to take a stab at your theoretical scenario: "Imagine if street Sam had a widget that was invisible to all security and let them summon at will up to 8 mercenaries who are armed to the teeth, can fly and immune to normal weapons🤔. Would that be cool?"

...well, if I have a number of troll mercenary contacts in a helicopter/submarine that I've paid to just show up whenever, armed to the teeth, and are loaded for bear...would that be cool?  I guess.  If they could do that - which I believe they can.

"What does the spirit army add to the game?"

...well, they have stories of a mage having access to numerous spirits. So it puts things in line with the lore/world.

We could also ask, "Why do players have access to multiple grenades?  Do you realize how much damage that can do?  That is totally broken!"  However, that is part of the game, and we have to roll with it.

<shrug>

[Jayde Moon]

Hi!

This thread was a fun read!

I have an answer for your question about what it adds, adzling.  It adds story and plot when used as intended.

In a Role Playing Game, many times 'story and plot' trump the rules.  That's such a ubiquitous concept that nearly every single RPG core book dedicated a paragraph to "if something needs to be done for the sake of story, do its rules be damned!"

If SR was a minis skirmish game or something, then that reason doesn't exist and more emphasis needs to be put on balance.

THAT SAID... the idea really only works well when the group can really hone in on story, plot, and character development, ie an ongoing home campaign.

Missions, especially when played in a time limited setting, doesn't lend itself to that sort of cohesive, consistent story and character development.  It actually encourages optimized play.  If I am not going to be able to satiate my desire for great RP and the development that brings my character, I may mahzwell focus on the other part, which is tooling around with mechanics to build highly optimized, efficient, and effective builds.

In that situation, the balance issue rears its ugly head and can actually be detrimental to the enjoyment of players who either don't enjoy optimizing or aren't good at it.

In a nutshell, I don't have a problem with how binding works for a home game but agree that something should be done to temper it in Missions.  And it is an issue that is being worked on.

What we don't anticipate doing in Missions, however, is grossly changing the rules so that they are different from Core.

Any fixes of that nature will need to come from the Errata Team.

[adzling]

evilaustintom re tone: sometimes you gotta poke people in the ribs to stop spouting shit.

re your points about having mercs on call, you completely missed the point.
Those mercs cannot magically appear inside the security perimeter, without any chance of being detected or stopped.
Those mercs cannot be kept on call for every single second of every single day wherever you are in the world.
Therefore your example is poor.

Jayde I agree with your general point that balance is less important for home games than it is for missions or other game types (such as tactical mini-games).

It doesn't mean that these issues should not be addressed however.

I believe you can craft rules that still let summoners and dedicated summoners have access to spirits in such a way that they cannot create the spirit army problem.

to do this the rules would need to factor in such things as:

total force of spirits in use at any one time
how to restrict spirit summoning/ use by mages within specific secured areas
how to restrict spirit summoning/ use when captured and or imprisoned

However this type of thing is out of the purview of the errata team as it is not an errata but a change to RAW and RAI.