Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: VanillaChai42 on <02-11-19/2342:06>
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So question is simple, it's specifically about the Uneducated quality most shapeshifters have but if it applies to anyone else, awesome.
So yeah, how does it work? Karma points × 2 or just karma cost?
Thanks!
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Im not sure whether you are even able to buy it off during character creation as it isn’t mentioned anywhere in which case I’d say it would have to be for karma cost x2 if you GM allows the move
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During chargen, cost for removing negative qualities is normal.
It's only double after chargen.
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This negative quality is not one bought through normal means but part of a racial package.
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Pixel, it is specifically mentioned in the "Creating a Shapeshifter" section on page 102 of Run Faster that the Negative Quality can be bought off with Karma. It simply specifies that a good reason is needed. In reference to Uneducated, you need a good reason why the shifter has been properly educated.
As for the cost, the only other instance of negative qualities needing to be bought off during chargen would be the Life Modules creation system. Normally, if you don't want a negative quality you simply wouldn't pick it, but like some racial-tied negatives, life modules can also apply negative qualities that you may want to remove before finishing up your character. Likewise, the life modules rules don't mention the cost being doubled at this step.
My opinion would be that since the character is not yet finished, the advancements costs don't apply. The cost to remove a Negative quality being valued at "Bonus Karma Value x2" is part of the character advancement rules. During creation qualities all just have values which are freely exchanged to and fro with karma, no need to double anything until after the creation stage is finished.
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I stand corrected. ;D
A good slap to get you back on the right track is needed now and again.
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I stand corrected. ;D
A good slap to get you back on the right track is needed now and again.
As a very wise Captain in a Gundam series once said:
"When a man strays from the right path, a kind man needs the courage to raise his fist and correct him."
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Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.
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...My opinion would be that since the character is not yet finished, the advancements costs don't apply. The cost to remove a Negative quality being valued at "Bonus Karma Value x2" is part of the character advancement rules. During creation qualities all just have values which are freely exchanged to and fro with karma, no need to double anything until after the creation stage is finished.
I also think this is a solid rationale.
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Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.
Meh. This NQ and similar ones I’m more of the opinion you have to justify why you have them given how poorly designed they are. Not sure why they felt the need to add it to shifters as a base much less so many damn life path choices. Hey raised by wolves and are a shifter, that’s a start. Did you just leave your pack yesterday or something? It’s not like it’s not having a college education. It’s you are incapable of learning a wide range of knowledge skills and can’t even guess. If you have been in society a year or so I’d say there’s a rational for it being bought off. Hell there is more of a rational it was bought off than not after a year in society even as a runner.
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You can usually tell when they haven't thought through qualities. We refer the honourable gentlebeing to Human lifespan from Complete Trog. A 10 point positive quality that has no effect other than to give you a roleplaying opportunity (based on average game length, even discounting death by violence you'll never get to the point where it's mechanically relevant (as there's no real boon/bane for age.)
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You can usually tell when they haven't thought through qualities. We refer the honourable gentlebeing to Human lifespan from Complete Trog. A 10 point positive quality that has no effect other than to give you a roleplaying opportunity (based on average game length, even discounting death by violence you'll never get to the point where it's mechanically relevant (as there's no real boon/bane for age.)
Yeah. I dug the spirit pact that gave you immortality in 4e? but it likely only put you back 5 points. 5 points is where I put the cost for pure RP qualities like a longer lifespan. Also patch qualities like the alchemy ones should be 0 with a prerequisite or like 1-2 points.
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Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.
Meh. This NQ and similar ones I’m more of the opinion you have to justify why you have them given how poorly designed they are. Not sure why they felt the need to add it to shifters as a base much less so many damn life path choices. Hey raised by wolves and are a shifter, that’s a start. Did you just leave your pack yesterday or something? It’s not like it’s not having a college education. It’s you are incapable of learning a wide range of knowledge skills and can’t even guess. If you have been in society a year or so I’d say there’s a rational for it being bought off. Hell there is more of a rational it was bought off than not after a year in society even as a runner.
Well, remember that shifters are not people that turn into animals, they are animals that turn into people. Meaning they have, unless something else happens, an animal's lifespan. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is 6-8 years. So you're talking about someone that may be only 2-3 years old.
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Well, remember that shifters are not people that turn into animals, they are animals that turn into people. Meaning they have, unless something else happens, an animal's lifespan. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is 6-8 years. So you're talking about someone that may be only 2-3 years old.
Yes and no, Shapeshifters have a longer lifespan than the normal animal (originally thought to be similar to an ork's lifespan). I believe they initially mature at approximately the same rate as the base species, though. So a fully grown wolf shifter could be just a couple of years old, yes. But they aren't likely to die from old age in less than a decade. So a Shapeshifter PC could be closer to five or six without risking death from old age any time soon.
But as far as the reasoning goes for a Shifter having Uneducated? Yeah it makes sense. It's perfectly possible for you to be raised in an environment that leaves you with little to no education. And yes, you can then go on to educate yourself, but you are working from a disadvantage. Hence the negative quality, first you need to get that base education (buy off the quality) and then you can keep going. Makes perfect sense.
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Sure thematically a shifter having a NQ called uneducated makes sense. The design of that NQ pretty much makes it make absolutely no sense at all for anyone.
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Well, remember that shifters are not people that turn into animals, they are animals that turn into people. Meaning they have, unless something else happens, an animal's lifespan. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is 6-8 years. So you're talking about someone that may be only 2-3 years old.
That average is skewed downwards by individuals that don't survive to adulthood; among individuals that do make it to adulthood, you'll find longer average lifespans.
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Sure thematically a shifter having a NQ called uneducated makes sense. The design of that NQ pretty much makes it make absolutely no sense at all for anyone.
No, it makes it undesirable and a problem for anyone. It makes it a quality that no one would pick if it were not part of the racial traits, and that most will buy off as soon as they possibly can. But it is something that makes sense, and needs to be bought off. Buying off that quality or living with the consequences is part of the balancing act for shifters having abilities metahumans do not.
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Sure thematically a shifter having a NQ called uneducated makes sense. The design of that NQ pretty much makes it make absolutely no sense at all for anyone.
No, it makes it undesirable and a problem for anyone. It makes it a quality that no one would pick if it were not part of the racial traits, and that most will buy off as soon as they possibly can. But it is something that makes sense, and needs to be bought off. Buying off that quality or living with the consequences is part of the balancing act for shifters having abilities metahumans do not.
I disagree, the quality makes 0 sense at all in how it is written. After 1 freaking day in town you almost assuredly pick up enough to make a random ass guess on a technical skill you have been bumping into but not have a skill of 1. Being unable to default makes 0 sense. Its not just undesirable its so absurd it stretches credulity. People don't instantly move from completely unaware to some level of skill. If they dropped the unaware part it could work, maybe add a increased chance to glitch or something. The design of the NQ just does not make sense.
And if its a quality that no one would pick it shouldn't exist in the main book well before shifters came out as an option.
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Sure thematically a shifter having a NQ called uneducated makes sense. The design of that NQ pretty much makes it make absolutely no sense at all for anyone.
No, it makes it undesirable and a problem for anyone. It makes it a quality that no one would pick if it were not part of the racial traits, and that most will buy off as soon as they possibly can. But it is something that makes sense, and needs to be bought off. Buying off that quality or living with the consequences is part of the balancing act for shifters having abilities metahumans do not.
I disagree, the quality makes 0 sense at all in how it is written. After 1 freaking day in town you almost assuredly pick up enough to make a random ass guess on a technical skill you have been bumping into but not have a skill of 1. Being unable to default makes 0 sense. Its not just undesirable its so absurd it stretches credulity. People don't instantly move from completely unaware to some level of skill. If they dropped the unaware part it could work, maybe add a increased chance to glitch or something. The design of the NQ just does not make sense.
And if its a quality that no one would pick it shouldn't exist in the main book well before shifters came out as an option.
My experience says otherwise.
This isn't going to be what people want to hear, but well, its born from over 6 years experience working throughout the African continent in 8 different countries from 1999 to 2008.
This is was in part through the UN plan to reduce poverty world wide by 50% by 2020. (achieved last year!) through partnerships with private industries and developing nations where the UN would pay for the "training and education of workers for sustainable jobs, wages and education". The idea was for large resource development programs to hire a mix of trained industrial workers and engineers to build the infrastructure and at the same time train the local populations to take over and maintain them...
And while the first part of the problem as been achieved (the reduction of overall poverty), the second probably won't be achievable for several more generations. And that is because the general educational gap found in Africa to that of the industrialized world. And that will take more time then 18 years to fix, as it will take a shift in social attitudes that can't just be dismissed, or legislated from half way around the world.
To put it more bluntly; I could take a group of Africans and turn them into a very proficient labor force that could install electrical equipment like no-one's business! But understanding exactly why a size of cable, or the wraps for a transformer, or the even the HOWS of electrical generation would be met with laughter, smirks, and ridicule. After all, that was the realm of the Djinn, Owabutqa, and Sam-Qreal. (Basically fantasy monsters).
Yea your Shifter might figure out how to operate a cross walk sign... But how about even a search function of a Commlink? Would it even understand the concept of a Commlink??? ("you mean that little funny rock talks to you, shows you pictures in your head, and tells you everything you want to know??? Yea suuuurrrrreeee buddy.")
You are taking for granted a whole lot of information and education that something that isn't even human just wouldn't have access to... Let alone the differences in sociology, and culture across the species.... Does your Dog shifter get offended when I don't try to smell his ass? Does he get offended when I punch his lights out for trying to smell MY ass?
***And, yes, your Canine Shifter (or coyote or Wolf) tries to smell everyone's ass... its a Dog thing. You know its true... you just don't want to admit it because its embarrasing and, well, you don't really want to play a shifter who is an ANIMAL that turns into a metahuman, you want to play a METAHUMAN that turns into an animal.
**(Directed at no one in particular, just addressing an underlying and ongoing theme to all Shifter threads)
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I agree with Reaver, the Uneducated quality works for what it is.
The part you might be over-analyzing is what might be considered a skill test. If a character has been "bumping into" some sort of technical skill over the course of a day or two, A) they have had enough time to learn the skill to rank 1, and B) they might know how to duplicate one or two "functions" of technology that wouldn't normally need a skill test.
An uneducated character that has been handed a commlink, told enough about what it is and what it could be used for, might be able to do things like turn it on, answer a call, or even open up an app (like to play music or something). These are all things that normally don't require a test at all, but a person might be able to intuit or mimic after being shown how to do it. And as a GM, I might even allow some of those basic functions without requiring a roll, but if the character is stressed or pressed for time, I would totally have them roll a Logic or Intuition test to see if they can properly answer that incoming call.
And if the person is putting in the effort to really learn how to use that device, then yeah, they are devoting that karma to learning the skill. What the uneducated quality does is makes it more difficult to learn these skills (because you lack the supportive knowledge background to build from) and makes it impossible to just wing it without any direction whatsoever. You CAN learn the skills, it is just more difficult.
Also worth noting, Uneducated only increases the Karma cost. If you want to make an Uneducated character that has picked up some basic skills in some technical skills, like Navigation and Computers, you can. If you spend skill points from your Skill Priority so that they don't have to worry about not being able to default, it doesn't cost any extra there.
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Kiir and Reaver are correct.
And not everything in the book is there for players, Shinobi.