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What skill/gun would you recommend for a mage?

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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #90 on: <12-26-15/1020:30> »
The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.

True, but with pistols you don't get essentially more.
Are you intentionally ignoring better range and defense penalties from full auto?
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Mirikon

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« Reply #91 on: <12-26-15/1619:24> »
Honestly, while the defense penalties from full auto are nice, they tear through ammo like mad, and draw all kinds of attention. For a mage, I'd rather have a solid melee option like a sword, staff, or hand weapon, and a heavy pistol as backup. In practice with my combat builds, anything that is quick enough that I need the defense penalties to hit it is probably something I'm better off using area spells and grenades on. A flashbang or two in enclosed spaces makes for very unhappy (and easy to hit) enemies. Or I summon a spirit and let them play.

A mage's first weapon should be spells and spirits. After that, melee or ranged weaponry, as you feel appropriate.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #92 on: <12-26-15/1642:10> »
I don't think mages benefit enough from the stats needed to go into melee, unless you're a Mystic (blade) Adept, and even then, you're probably better off with a mono whip weapon focus and dumping STR.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Csjarrat

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« Reply #93 on: <12-26-15/1730:07> »
For me, I like pistols as a skill for a non-weapons specialist.
Side-arms are common enough in-setting that everyone in the biz and shitter end of town carries one anyway, and tasers are legal enough to carry in the smarter end of town.
They're concealable enough that they can be sneaked in no problem and several of them hit pretty hard (the Ruger super-warhawk for example). My personal fave is the fichetti security 600 for the high accuracy, decent enough damage, free laser sight and 30 round clip. Doesn't take much modding at all to be a great little sidearm!
Machine pistols are also nice, but most of the FA ones have low damage and penetration so aren't great at actually hurting anything if you don't want to suppress and chew through a clip a turn. Some of the BF ones are pretty decent though, especially when loaded with non-regular ammo like APDS or handloaded EX-EX etc.
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Senko

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« Reply #94 on: <12-26-15/2135:33> »
The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.

True, but with pistols you don't get essentially more.
Are you intentionally ignoring better range and defense penalties from full auto?

No just looked at the base ranges for a weapon type, didn't even realize full auto gave range increase. I knew you could penalize their defenses but that's why I was looking originally looking at 2 automatic weapons (machine pistol and assault rifle) but the thread brought me back to looking at heavy pistols which appeal to me more thematically especially since the savalette has burst fire.

Of course part of this may be that one of the people I've played with regularly is a minmaxing combat monkey. Doesn't matter the system he'll come up with some combination of class, skills, weaponary to do ridiculous amounts of damage while I'm more of a generalist at heart so I've sort of drifted away from bothering with combat and just left it to him while I work on other things e.g. magic, computers, trading since he's not that interested in them.

Mirikon

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« Reply #95 on: <12-27-15/0054:09> »
I don't think mages benefit enough from the stats needed to go into melee, unless you're a Mystic (blade) Adept, and even then, you're probably better off with a mono whip weapon focus and dumping STR.
The primary attributes needed for melee are Agility, Reaction, and Intuition. Rea and Int are both your initiative, and play a role in defense tests. Agility is used to hit with any weapon skill. So any mage benefits from having a 3-4 in each of those stats. You don't need a massive STR score to be effective in melee, either. STR 2-4 is plenty, especially if you choose your weapons well. A Katana or Monosword, for instance, does good damage (and doesn't have the risk of getting stuck or slashing yourself to ribbons). Bonus: blades are pretty much all Restricted or less, while a Monowhip is Forbidden. The reason why I go with a physical weapon instead of unarmed combat (other than an adept using Killing Hands) is a psychological thing. A visible weapon is a deterrent everyone understands. Sure, you might KNOW that one guy is a trained hand to hand fighter, and the other guy knows just a bit more than where to put the pointy end of the sword, but that lizard part of your brain which starts going in overdrive when it comes to fight or flight situations sees the visible weapon as a bigger threat, right until the killing hands adept punches a hole in your street sammy's chest with his bare hands.

If you look solely at damage codes, you have a point. But once you start looking at the forest instead of the trees, blades or clubs become a safer option than monowhips, and the fact that they never run out of ammo is no small consideration. But a lot of this comes down to playstyles, perhaps. Some people look for the maximum impact in a single combat, while some people take a slightly lesser impact in one combat for an improved benefit over the long term. Neither is wrong, just different.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #96 on: <12-27-15/1315:40> »
Actually, besides Monowhip builds, Strength needs to be almost as high as Agility on humans. Before net hits, higher the strength higher the damage. Better to take your Str 3-4 and put those skill points you have in a melee skill and max/specialize you gun, spellcasting, summoning, or counter spelling skills. Unless your are also using increase attribute spells to raise either/both agility and strength.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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Mirikon

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« Reply #97 on: <12-27-15/1335:51> »
*shrugs* For my human or elf characters, I usually end up with a STR of 2-3 when doing melee weapons, and AGI of 4 or so. A solid Blades skill with specialization means I usually roll at least 10 to 12 dice, more with a weapon focus. That's enough to be a serious threat. Especially since I cheat horribly, eating a -2 sustaining penalty to throw up area debuffs like Opium Den, throwing smoke grenades and using ultrasound on my goggles, and so on. Fair fights are for guys like Superman. If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #98 on: <12-27-15/1436:03> »
So that's worked for you, at STR 2-3? I just would never consider doing that.

AGI is clearly a more valuable attribute (hits to actually land the attack, net hits add to damage), where STR just modifies the DV. But even with that said, I personally wouldn't think to do a melee-heavy build at low STR, because while STR is less valuable than AGI, it still has some value.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Rooks

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« Reply #99 on: <12-27-15/1646:34> »
unarmed shock glove/clubs stun baton/telescoping stun baton/stun staff str not needed

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #100 on: <12-27-15/1752:20> »
He never said any of the shock gear, he said blades and a whopping pool of 10-12. Not hyper focused (only second real character) had blade(sword) pool of 14 pre-foci or improved ability ranks. With Str 5(6) due to Qi foci, agility 6, and critical strike. He has a dv of 9 with a combat knife, 10 with his weapon foci katana, or 12 with his nodachi/claymore. And still has automatics for range attacks/AoE debuffs. While, not a caster, screw this only a pool of 10-12 as dedicated melee and only str of 4. Only way I would do low str is either a monowhip build or caster that then used improved attribute spells to raise either/both agility and strength.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Rooks

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« Reply #101 on: <12-27-15/1858:59> »
or one of those blade spells from hard targets that ignore armor completely or the other one that has an ap and dv of the force of the spell+net hits?

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #102 on: <12-27-15/2336:16> »
Yup, those are fine as well, once they are clarified how they should work completely.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Mirikon

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« Reply #103 on: <12-29-15/0026:27> »
So that's worked for you, at STR 2-3? I just would never consider doing that.

AGI is clearly a more valuable attribute (hits to actually land the attack, net hits add to damage), where STR just modifies the DV. But even with that said, I personally wouldn't think to do a melee-heavy build at low STR, because while STR is less valuable than AGI, it still has some value.
Yeah, worked fine for me. Just remember that you're a MAGE. If you're a combat mage, then there are easy ways to modify that damage, and throw much needed points to more critical things. Element Aura spells, weapon foci, spirit possession, and more. Plenty of tricks there. STR 3 (as a human or elf) is really the highest I'd go for that kind of build. Gives you decent base damage, but doesn't pull too many points from other things. I've done this with mages, mystic adepts, and adepts. AGI 4, Blades (Swords) 6(+2), Weapon Focus, Reach, and so on, you can get 15+ dice easy. Also using Increase Reflexes on a Sustaining Focus. Swords and sorcery is a kick-ass combo, if you play it right. But then, I also am a big fan of the concept that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". Anything you can find that adds elemental damage to your attacks (for that nice extra AP and secondary effects) is awesome. Debuffs like Euphoria or Agony that hinder your foes make melee easier. Simply combining ultrasound sensors and thermal smoke grenades (yes, you can't cast on things you 'see' with sensors, but you can still hit them) makes things even nastier. Improved Invisibility? Silence? Awesome! The key to being a magic swordsman is not in being the best mage or the best swordsman, but in being able to flexibly use both interchangeably and together to the best effect.

It is the same as when playing football. There are teams known for their passing game, and teams known for running it straight into your teeth every play to wear you down. Both are great strategies, but the most dangerous teams are the ones that can run or pass equally well, so that you never know what's coming next.
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Dinendae

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« Reply #104 on: <01-07-16/0215:53> »
Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.

When I went to basic training, I had never used a firearm in my life. I trained only with the M16A3 and M203; I had KP the day they taught the M60, so I had to have someone run over the basics real quick, so that I had basic knowledge of it. I'd still struggle to get it to load now, and might not be able to do it, as I still never have used one. I went to AIT the next summer, and learned how to work mortars; the 61mm, 81mm (which my unit used), and 4.2" (what idiot thought it would be a good idea to use a mortar round that had charges that required fractional math in a combat zone!?). Even when I was still in, I only used the 81mm mortar and would have struggled using the other two as I never really used them past AIT.

A couple years in, I was moved to the assistant gunner slot, and as a result my issued weapon was switched from the M16A2 to the M1911A1. I had never fired a handgun in my life, and thus had a SSG take me to the range and spend a few hours showing me how to work it properly and firing rounds so that I could get used to it. Sure when I picked it up I could figure out the basic parts: This thing that slides is the slide, that's the trigger, here's the hammer, etc. However until I actually had a chance to use it, and more importantly get used to it, there was no way I was going to be automatically skilled in its use. The same goes for when I got into WWII (Soviet) reenacting many years back: I had to learn how to use a bolt action rifle. Sure it was easier to pick up, but there were enough differences that I wasn't going to be automatically skilled in it just because I had fired other things that fired bullets; I had to use it, and get some experience with it before I was accurately firing it.