[martinchaen]

I've been reviewing potential "aggressive negotiation" techniques for my SRM Season 5 character, and in doing so started looking at the cost effectiveness of grenades. I must admit I'm intrigued by some of the possibilities.

Unless you have no other option, or if you just want to cause as much damage as possible, the High Explosive grenade is a poor alternative for most runs. It could, however, be considered a remarkably effective tool if you intend to cause as much havoc as possible.

For the more discerning runner, a more subtle approach is probably the focus, and there are many, many options to consider.

The most direct and least subtle is likely the flash-bang grenade. Decent amount of stun damage and armor penetration, no falloff with distance from blast (full DV for entire blast range), and a somewhat reasonable price of 100 nuyen per hit (ironically, the HE grenade has the same price). It's an obvious choice if you see an opportunity to take out a group of mooks, much like the ubiquitous Stunball.

However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Enter the gas grenade.

As this item is reasonably priced and offers a plethora of secondary effects, I thought it was worth a more in-depth study.

Out of chargen, you are limited to toxins or drugs with Avail 10, as the grenade itself adds 2 to the availability rating. This leaves us with the following alternatives (Avail less than or equal to 10, inhalation or contact vectors):
Toxins: CS/Tear Gas, Narcojet, Nausea Gas and Pepper Punch
Drugs: Bliss, Cram, Deepweed, Jazz, Kamikaze, Nitro, Novacoke, and Zen

Of the above, the toxins are all viable, but the only drug really worth considering in my opinion is Deepweed. Allow me to elaborate.

Stun Damage:
CS/Tear Gas, Narcojet, and Pepper Punch all deal Stun Damage.
In this category, Narcojet is most effective due to it's high Power and Speed of Immediate, followed by Pepper Punch and CS/Tear Gas. Narcojet does have "Injection" listed as its only vector, however, so may not be allowed as a gas attack.

That being said, toxins are excellent alternatives to more conventional damage as armor does not factor in unless the target has chemical protection/resistance and/or immunity. Where a flashbang would be resisted with the full Body + Armor of a mook (ranging from 13 to 25+), a Toxin Resistance Test is Body + Willpower (ranging from 7 to 10) plus any armor enhancements that provide resistance.

For the example Professional Rating 2 mook (Corp Security), this would mean that the DV10S flashbang would be resisted with 16 dice (averaging 4 hits for a total of 6 Stun Damage), while a DV15S Narcojet gas grenade (if allowed) would only be resisted by 7 (for a total of 12-13S on average). A DV11S Pepper Punch grenade (definitely allowed) would also be resisted by 7 (for a total of 8-9S on average), Not only do gas grenades do more stun damage, their effects also persists for 4 combat turns (unless wind) and it is also cheaper (at 100 nuyen vs 90 and 45, respectively).

Unfortunately, Professional Rating 5 and 6 mooks are all equipped with Full Body Armor that has the Chemical Seal upgrade, so if you're regularly fighting these guys, you can discount toxins straight away.

Now, Narcojet is fine if you just want to take the enemy out, but there are other, cheaper, alternatives to cause some (relatively subtle) havoc.

CS/Tear Gas, Nausea Gas, and Pepper Punch all cause Nausea if the total power (after Toxin Resistance test) exceeds targets Willpower. In addition, CS/Tear Gas and Nausea Gas inflict Disorientation, unless the power of the toxin is reduced to 0.

In order of cost effectiveness in terms of secondary effects, I would rate toxins as follows:
Pepper Punch is incredibly cheap at only 5 nuyen per dose, inflicts decent stun damage and has the potential to inflict nausea, meaning the target is incapacitated (can take no actions) for 3 combat turns and suffers double wound penalties. Like all toxins discussed here, it has a slower speed than Narcojet, so some planning is required.

CS/Tear Gas is more expensive than Pepper Punch, does less Stun damage, but will always inflict a -2 dice pool penalty (for ten minutes) and has the chance to inflict nausea. Due to it's higher price and lower power, I rank this as less cost efficient.

Nausea Gas does not cause any stun damage, but does both disorientation and nausea, but has a speed of 3 combat turns. It is also the most expensive of the three alternatives, and so I consider this to be least efficient.

Finally, we have Deepweed. If you are facing Awakened characters, this is a good way to give them some negative dice, as the drug forces them to astrally perceive. It's a double edged sword, however, as it also adds willpower and mental limit, so use with care. It's speed of Immediate and vector of Inhalation lends itself well to a gas grenade, and since it does not have a Power it would seem that the effects cannot be resisted. It is a fairly expensive way to deal with your enemy, though, as it costs 400 nuyen per dose.

In my opinion, the flashbang is inferior to the narcojet gas grenade as the latter is less expensive, has a higher chance of doing serious damage, and persists for a period of time which can be used as a tactical advantage (retreat, anyone?). The disadvantage the gas grenade has is that it could obviously blow right back in your face, so keep your gas masks or respirators handy, folks... I would also think that a flashbang could attract a lot more attention (loud bang and bright light vs low hiss and tendrils of smoke around a corner/in plain sight).

Thoughts and comments welcome.

[Xenon]

tl;dr grenades are op in sr5

[martinchaen]

Hehe, Xenon, I guess you could summarize it that way... Just remember to bring your own MOPP gear

I also find it a little strange that a gasmask is 200 nuyen and provides full immunity against inhalation vector toxins, but a Rating 6 Respirator costs 300 nuyen and only provides +6 dice to the toxin resistance test. Why buy a respirator?

Also, I'm left wondering if toxins that have multiple vectors of attack count as having both or just one at the same time.

Take Pepper Punch, for instance. If used in a grenade it's definitely airborn (counting as a gas, and thus using the inhalation vector), but would it also count as a contact vector attack (which can be solid, liquid, or gaseous) and would you then have to take two toxin resistance tests, or just one against the vector you have the least resistance against?

If the latter is the case, gas attacks is even more powerful, as you could wear a gasmask that gives you full immunity to inhalation vector attacks, but against Pepper Punch you'd still have to take a toxin resistance test against the contact vector.

[Noble Drake]

I see things in the OP to which I can only respond: I really hate how following the rules as they are written to some parts of a game end up making situations that make entirely no sense, and it is espeically bad in the case of Shadowrun and gas grenades because the setting applies inconsistently.

Examples of what I mean... well, Deepweed grenade - if that is rules legal, it is completely ridiculous... awakened marijuana used as a grenade is goofy. I mean, think of it like this, you light an entire pound of marijuana on fire at throw it on the ground near someone. They smell smoke - they do not become immediately intoxicated.

...and in the setting of Shadowrun the air quality in Seattle is so bad that most people wear a respirator, so inhaled gasses are an even less viable weapon.

Plus, I find it irritating that the gas grenade description specifically says "does not explode" and yet the gas fills a 10 meter radius instantaneously - there should be at least one combat turn in which the gasses are pouring out of the grenade but are not yet heavily saturated enough to noticeably affect those nearby.

[martinchaen]

Noble Drake Yeah, the deepweed grenade, while legal, is ridiculous. It's also expensive; which is why I would personally never use it. There are a lot of more efficient ways of giving someone a -2 dice roll than spending 440 nuyen on a grenade which might not even work.

Also, the way I see it a toxin grenade is not instantaneous; on the combat turn in which the grenade activates, the Toxin Resistance test only occurs at the very end of the of the last action phase. Furthermore, most inhalation vector toxins are not Speed=Immediate and such have an onset time during which you can administer various countermeasures.

Are they powerful; yes. But as anyone who has been on the receiving end of a CS grenade without a gasmask will tell you, that shit is just horrifically unpleasant.

As for speed, I'll go with the above example again. While a modern day gas grenade does not "explode" per se, the slow release of gas we've seen smoke grenades do in the movies is not at all like the real deal. Setting off a CS grenade inside a tent is a patently BAD idea (true story). Tent flaps went flying every which way...

[Noble Drake]

I realize that gas grenades aren't a slow trickle of smoke like in movies/TV - but the description says "does not explode" when that is actually exactly what gas grenades do. That "pop" and then gas is everywhere is exactly the definition of explosion.

Good point, however, about the onset times of most inhalants... though realistically nothing with an inhalation vector should have immediate onset - smoking deepweed, for example, should require more than just one quick puff to "kick in."

[martinchaen]

If you replaced "deepweed" with mary jane, then yes, but these are Awakened drugs, man; that shit is poooooowerful

[Michael Chandra]

Gas Mask is limited to 1 hour of air, while a Respirator always works and draws less attention.

[martinchaen]

Good catch, Michael. Gasmask is less likely to be something you could just put on and wear all day, after all, even if it had a bypass switch.

Here's a thought; how would a Pepper Punch gas grenade affect a materialized spirit? Immunity seems to apply to damage you roll armor against, whereas toxins are resisted with Body and Willpower only...

Can you even use gas against spirits?

[Xenon]

Narcoject have vector: Injection (basically you need to penetrate the skin with something coated with the toxin so it can enter the blood stream). You can't do that with a gas grenade.

A "normal" grenade detonate on the same initiative score on the following combat turn. It doesn't say how long time (or if it take any time at all) it take to fill the area with gas after the grenade detonate.

After that; Toxins that have a speed of 1 combat turn does not kick in until the end of the combat turn after you finally have been exposed by it. Pepper Punch and cs/tear gas have a speed of 1 combat turn.

Very strange that chemical protection (for example on your armored jacket) give both +rating to contact (which make sense) andinhalation (which does not make sense). Gasmask only protect against vector Inhalation. Since both Pepper Punch and cs/tear gas have vector Inhalation and Contact you might as well throw away the gas mask (since it does not offer any protection against contact vector anyway) and just get chemical protection (that does not offer immunity but at least work against both vectors).

p.437 state that chemical protection offer protection against contact vector (it mention it twice). It does not mention inhalation vector (not even once). I think (hope) that table on p.408 is wrong and description on p.437 is correct.. and in that case you need both a gas mask (or an internal air tank, respirator etc.) and chemical protection on your armored jacket (or full body armor w helmet and chemical seal, hazmat suit etc.).

As for Deepweed. It actually only require one quick puff and then it will kick in at the end of the same combat turn you were exposed to it (so it take a maximum of 3 seconds). It's not really a toxin though. Physical adepts that does not have astral projection adept power can abuse it to get access to astral perception. Magicians can still conjure or control spirits or cast indirect combat spells. Adepts can still slice things up with their sword or shoot people with their gun...

[ZeConster]

Unless you have no other option, or if you just want to cause as much damage as possible, the High Explosive grenade is a poor alternative for most runs. It could, however, be considered a remarkably effective tool if you intend to cause as much havoc as possible.

Not sure I follow. A HE grenade that explodes within 1m of its target will deal 1/3 more damage on average (and be more likely to pierce and do Physical damage), but because of the faster blast dropoff, it will deal less damage on average beyond 1m.
As an example, a densiplast wall at 3m will take 13P/+5 from a frag grenade, which with Structure 8 and Armor 12 gives a 37.03% chance of it breaking, while the same wall at 3m will take 10P/-2 from a HE grenade, which gives a 3.26% chance of it breaking.
In other words, High Explosive grenades are actually a better choice if you want to limit how much gets damaged (although flash-bangs are even better if you want to avoid damaging any hardware or walls).

[Noble Drake]

As an example, a densiplast wall at 3m will take 13P/+5 from a frag grenade, which with Structure 8 and Armor 12 gives a 37.03% chance of it breaking, while the same wall at 3m will take 10P/-2 from a HE grenade, which gives a 3.26% chance of it breaking.

I think your examples are off...

At 3 meters distance, a frag grenade would be 15P/+5, and a wall with armor 12 would ignore its damage completely (15 is not greater than the adjusted armor of 17, so the damage would be stun and barriers ignore stun damage).

Similarly, though you got the DV right for the high explosive grenade, the DV of 10 does not exceed the adjusted armor of 10, so the damage is converted to stun and subsequently ignored.

[ZeConster]

Right, forgot about the DV-value-vs-Armor-value comparison for a bit. (And I did use 15P/+5 in the calculations, actually, just not in the post). My bad.
Nevertheless, it only takes 1m of distance for a HE grenade to deal less damage on average, and in the 5m-8m range, they don't have more chance of piercing anymore either. Trees and light posts are immune to frag/HE at 6m/6m (and frag at 5m means 19 dice vs. 13P (72.07% of >=6 damage, meaning a hole), while HE at 4m already means 12 dice vs. 8P (0.77% of >=6 damage, meaning a hole)), while furniture and ballistic glass is immune at 8m/7m (and frag at 7m means 15 dice vs. 11P (96.92% of >=3 damage, meaning a hole)/8 dice vs. 2P (no hole)).
As the most extreme example, standard glass is immune to HE at 8m (anything is, actually), and at 7m it gets broken 100% of the time (plus there's a 2/3 chance of the hole being 2 m^2); while with frag, the cutoff is 12m, and at 11m, the chance of breaking is 99.98% (and the chance of a hole that's 4 m^2 or larger is 74.14%).

That's a lot of numbers being thrown around, I guess, so I'll just summarize it: outside of a 2m radius, HE will typically not out-damage frag, and outside of that same radius, HE becomes pretty easy to soak before it crosses the "is it Physical or Stun" line, while frag grenades continue to be a hazard until that line (and for those who aren't barriers or vehicles and don't have Hardened Armor, a few meters afterwards). When it comes to avoiding collateral damage, HE is the better choice (although still inferior to flashbangs and Mana AoE spells - side note: do Mana AoE spells kill plants? Because having an elf exec swear revenge on some runners who destroyed his plants during a firefight sounds like a fun idea): frag grenades, on the other hand, are the better choice when you decide to 'distract' the police with a few dozen heavily injured civilians.

[Noble Drake]

There are reasons why Shadowrun used to refer to grenades as Offensive (fragmentation) and Defensive (high explosive), as illustrated by ZeConster... most people wouldn't use a frag if it was their collateral being damaged.

As for mana spells affecting plants, I believe that is so but I can't say I remember why I believe that... my brain tells me that its mana spells until the plants are processed in some way, and then only physical spells can do anything.

I will try to remember to look that up later - it's probably somewhere in one of the SR1 or SR2 books and never mentioned since.

[Michael Chandra]

By the way, if your pool is good enough to not get glitches: Throw 2 Motion-Sensor Fragmentation grenades. Even with maximum scatter they would do 18P/+4, which is still better than a direct hit.