[qazcake]

Yes logically they shouldn't work together, but Shadowrun doesn't follow logic.  However, who knows what futuretech may bring, in 50 years there may be a breakthrough in suppressor/venting tech.

This would require a breakthrough in physics, but I'm happy to handwave some of the stranger aspects of Shadowrun physics.  I don't want to open the can of worms again, but I feel like it's worth reminding people a few things.  Shadowrun editors have a history of using the words "integral" and "internal" interchangeably.  If all integral accessories don't take up a slot, you can end up with guns with two shock pads and/or two folding stocks.  Furthermore, it makes the fact that many of the item descriptions specify exactly where the accessory is ("barrel-mounted-gas-vent 2") seem like a bizarre layout decision.

SR is in dire need of term standardization, but it'd probably not going to happen.

Yea i can agree with this yet there are lot of things that bug me about shadow... Wait were talking about the ares light fire 75? Look all pistols are in a word useless but thats not why pepole use them it more of a backup weapons if your assult rifle jams your lmg ran out of ammo and you are not magical and even then this thing seems useless so yea i agree.

[Novocrane]

It's not much, but even if you can't figure out a use for an Ares Lightfire yourself, the 70 does pop up in Vice's "Most Popular Controlled Substances". (guns & armour, not drugs)

Presumably the 75 isn't that hard to move, either.

On the topic of Supressors / Gas Vents vs multiple Stocks; I don't think it's just common sense, but also common knowledge that's important. If it seriously bothers you, you're probably above the 'common' line on the latter.

[Supine]

The LF75 isn't really meant to be sold in your local gun store, which probably explains the price hike and availability all on its own. However, it's probably the one you'll see more in the hands of Hard Corps and their ilk. I don't really see a problem.

[WellsIDidIt]

Keeping in mind that there is sixty years of R&D between now and SR, I don't think it's impossible to believe that suppressors and gas vents would be able to work together (or even be the same attachment). While the traditional suppressor traps gasses and releases them slowly, there are multiple current lines of work trying to different approaches.

For a gas vent working with a suppressor, the most promising avenue would probably be frequency shifting, known more commonly as "dog whistle" silencers. Instead of trapping, cooling, and slowly releasing the gasses, it channels the gasses out through precision drilled holes that shift the frequency of sound to something beyond the normal human range. Of course, it would be audible to anyone hearing in that frequency, but normal suppressors are also audible o\in certain frequencies as well.

That said, gas vents can also work very similar to how the AN-94 is designed. Just because the gas is being vented, doesn't mean that it has to leave the gun to be effective. Modern technology is marvelous, half a century from now's technology should seem magical.

[Michael Chandra]

Keeping in mind that there is sixty years of R&D between now and SR, I don't think it's impossible to believe that suppressors and gas vents would be able to work together (or even be the same attachment)

The problem isn't that sixty years between now and SR, but the 4 years between SR4a and SR5. It wasn't allowed to use both in SR4.

Under Accumulative Recoil with 1 IP needed to reset recoil, however, there's no harm in letting them combine. Under the errata, however, it definitely should be outlawed again.

[WellsIDidIt]

I disagree completely. As you mentioned, recoil is handled completely differently in SR 5, so the effects of Gas Vents are different than they were in SR 4. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable.

On top of that, four years is still enough time for R&D to make progress. It's not like the R&D has only taken four years to work out, but it can finally have paid off. Perhaps someone finally reverse engineered the Ingram Smartgun.

On another note, as far as the Light Fire 75 vs. Light Fire 70 goes. The 70 does not have an integral silencer available. It is an accessory silencer. The text does not change the legality of the silencer, which is 9F. The only thing changed about this special silencer is the cost (+50%) and the benefit (additional -1).

Keep in mind, that if the text is different than the Light Fire 70 (it mentions an additional -1, but it does mention the specific numbers -4 and -5 like the Light Fire 70). If the new book works similar to the old book, the integral silencers may be better than mounted silencers. That would make the Light Fire 75 much better (I don't have books with me, but in SR4 I believe the integral silencers where two points higher in hearing penalties).

[Michael Chandra]

I disagree completely. As you mentioned, recoil is handled completely differently in SR 5, so the effects of Gas Vents are different than they were in SR 4. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable.

Players need less Recoil Compensation in SR5 than in SR4 since they only get 1 Attack Action per IP, and get 1 more natural Recoil Compensation at the least. So you need to score an additional 4, not 8, for optimal firing. With that Gas Vent 3 and a Shockpad, everyone already hits that.

So under the errata, where you can throw out 6-round full-automatic bursts each IP without recoil actually accumulating, I disagree with you that it's completely different. The only difference is that in SR5 under the errata it's even easier to manage RC. As such, under the errata, I do not believe it to be fair to have them combine.

Now if you houserule that you need an entire non-shooting Action Phase to reset Recoil, then yes I believe it's no more than fair to have them combine.

[WellsIDidIt]

In all reality, it should be that easy to compensate for recoil in the future. Look at modern weapons compared to old weapons. A .45 (.45 ACP, 1904), .357 (.357 Magnum, 1934), or even a 9mm (9x19mm Parabellum, 1904) all would make sense to have decent recoil, mostly from perception rather than reality. However modern ammunitions like the FN 5.7 (5.7x28mm, 1990) and HK 4.6 (4.6x30mm, 1999) have very little recoil in comparison.

As for balance, I don't see the issue. Shadowrun is lethal. It really always has been. In my opinion SR 4 was the least lethal edition, but they stated at one point that SR 5 was supposed to be more lethal. Keeping in mind that it's supposed to be lethal, I'm not seeing the problem. All it's doing is forcing people to think tactically, which isn't a bad thing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.

You're arguing optimal firing, but optimal firing has changed drastically from SR 4. Six rounds compared to nine in SR 4. Smart characters were always firing compensated to begin with. So yes, they need less recoil to put out weaker attacks/less bullets per action phase. It's all already balanced.

[Michael Chandra]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.

You only need 4 extra RC to keep firing 6 rounds per IP without ever suffering from recoil. Firing 10 rounds isn't optimal firing, because it's not a rate of fire you can keep throwing out there. Firing 6 rounds per IP is optimal firing, and there is no point in modding a gun just so that you can fire 10 rounds in only a single IP of battle.

If you want to further debate the balance of recoil, you may want to properly check out the actual numbers and join in on the recoil debate in the topics about it, though. My sole point for this topic is that with players needing 4 less Recoil Compensation than in SR4, there is no need to make using that Gas Vent not come at the price of not running silent. Claiming that the difference in recoil means that Gas Vents should now stack, when the need for RC has actually drastically reduced due to the errata, is not a claim I can consider valid given the evidence.

[ZeConster]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.

But 10 rounds per IP isn't sustainable, since that requires a Complex Action, meaning you won't be able to reset recoil in the same IP. So there is no "extended amounts of time" possible for those - either you spend a Simple Action in the next IP on a non-firing action to reset recoil (meaning you can't do another 10-round burst), or you face a total of 20 recoil on the second 10-round burst.
6 rounds per IP, however, is sustainable, since it allows for you to spend one Simple Action on firing and one on anything else to reset recoil.

You're arguing optimal firing, but optimal firing has changed drastically from SR 4. Six rounds compared to nine in SR 4. Smart characters were always firing compensated to begin with. So yes, they need less recoil to put out weaker attacks/less bullets per action phase. It's all already balanced.

Defense pools and damage have both increased, though, so the attacks are hardly weaker.

[WellsIDidIt]

Six recoil (4 increase) is one way to go. The other way to go is 16 recoil (14 increase). Full Auto - Simple Full Auto/Simple Action Reset. 10 rounds every other IP, 6 rounds on the in betweens.

Your claim is that 4 recoil is equivalent to 8 recoil in SR 4 because these are the "optimal firing." You fail to address that your optimal firing isn't equal. Six bullets compared to nine. SRers in SR 4 needed more recoil to shoot more bullets. That's a simple fact.

So, it doesn't matter how much recoil comp you need. What matters is that you either need A.) more recoil comp for optimal firing (the 14 example) or B.) Your optimal firing is weaker than it used to be.

Was it hard to get that 8 recoil comp before? No. It's still not hard to get optimal recoil comp. Since it's weaker though, it doesn't matter as much.

[Michael Chandra]

By claiming it is weaker, you appear to be ignoring the fact that the entire game system was rebalanced and that you now only get 1 Attack Action per IP, which means it changed for EVERYONE. Originally the Longarm user needed 1 RC, now they need 0, for example. Once you actually acknowledge that and move the debate to the Recoil topics, I'm willing to consider your intent to debate genuine. Until then, to my eyes you're just trying to push your point through while deliberately ignoring the game rebalances.

In SR4, you had to do 1 LB and 1 SB each IP to keep up in combat. In SR5, you need 1 LB. Furthermore, you now have 1 more RC available. So the Recoil changes, under the errata, did NOT make Gas Vents any more required for proper functioning in combat than in SR4, and mainly put less pressure on the wielder. Claiming otherwise is pure foolishness.

As such, in my opinion there is no need under the errata to have the two combined. If one ignores the errata and houserules it takes 1 Action Phase to reset recoil, then I consider it perfectly fine to have the two combine. No matter how much you ignore the game rebalance, that opinion won't change, and any recoil debate on it should not mess with this topic and be in the recoil topics, as I already said before.

[WellsIDidIt]

You're ignoring the entire point being made. You are trying to claim that it's unbalanced now because it wasn't allowed before, and supposedly, things were balanced before. That of course ignores the entire point of the recoil changes, but that's beside the point. You are the one that brought up optimal firing as a point of interest in this thread. And no, I am not ignoring the rebalances. I'm keeping them in mind completely as it's the basis of the attack being weaker. 1 IP in SR 4 for most sams was a long burst and a short burst all completely compensated, both defended by the defenders reaction and reaction -1. Now, it's a single long burst that is capped by a limit (accuracy) and defended by the defenders Reaction and Intuition.

It's easier to hit the recoil needed in SR 5. That is true. There is no debate there. Recoil compensation is weaker in SR 5 for the exact reason you've stated. You only get one attack per IP. On top of that, your optimal firing proof involves taking that in a simple action and resetting every IP.

You seem to be looking at it all wrong though. Look at what you said. I'm not claiming that Gas Vents are more required. I'm claiming that they are less required. Their value for the majority of characters is far lower than they were in SR 4. They aren't as powerful as they were. The only guns that really need them in most cases are BF pistols, or MGs/ARs if the character is going the 16 RC route.

Since they are less needed, and therefore, inherently less powerful, it is not upsetting the balance to let them work with silencers.

[Michael Chandra]

Even though RC is easier to get, it has become far more valuable in SR5 and as such is even more needed. So while individual mod Gas Vents are less needed, adding recoil compensation to a gun has become far more important. You say it yourself, two attributes and limited by Accuracy nowadays. You might have been able to make due with SA shots in SR4, but in SR5 you have to score more hits while your hits are also restricted. This makes RC both easier to get, due to needing far less, and at the same time far more necessary because it's the only way to score proper hit chances against competent enemies.

So even though you need to manage less RC on a gun to use it optimally, the pressure on having that RC has heavily increased. With Gas Vents it's real easy, but it may come at the price of no silenced gunfire. If you try to get it through other means, you're either restraining mobility with Tripods, or spending a decent bit of money and internal mod space on it. In other words, RC comes at a price: Either part of your limited modspace or losing the ability to fire silently. By letting them combine, however, Gas Vents become the primary way of getting RC and most people would never need any internal modification unless their gun doesn't come with either of the two built in or they're RC-desiring gunbunnies.

Walk the line and pay the price. That's what matters here. Anyway, I'm calling it quits. I'm not interested in constantly having to rehash things from here and other topics.

[WellsIDidIt]

Even though RC is easier to get, it has become far more valuable in SR5 and as such is even more needed.

No. It really isn't more valuable. You only get one attack per IP now. There is an illusion of it being more valuable, but since, as you point out, optimal firing involves Simple Actions and resetting in most cases (or alternating Complex Action - Simple Action/Reset firing), it is very easy to get. Being capped at what you need is more valuable, but any given source is less valuable because RC is so easy to get. You get so much for free, the only people needing gas vents are the ones alternating complex actions and resetting. It used to be, the vast majority of people needed gas vents to optimal fire every round.