The first major rules expansion book, Firing Squad, recently was released. Gear porn. Edge actions porn. If you dislike the armor mechanic in 6e, you may really like some of the armor modifications in this book: you can purchase add-ons for your armor that makes it reduce incoming damage.
Over all nothing has really changed from where we were at release. The core remains unplayable without a significant number of house rules.
Firing Squad made some limited efforts to address community concerns, but the core problems with the system remain.
So it's simply a question of how much effort you want to put into making 6e playable at your table.
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.
I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.
I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
Most weapons haven't had pictures for as long as I played Shadowrun.
I have read very few complaints about the Matrix and Rigging, and there's only a handful of matters that have confused people enough to require writer clarification, so errors aside, I do not understand the claims that Matrix and Rigging don't work. Especially when you compare Rigging to SR5 CRB, I actually consider the claim unbelievable. Just like the claim that the errata didn't have any significant impact.
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
First, it would seem that you have been playing the latest few Shadowrun Editions regularly and have a good understanding of them. That is excellent, and I am jealous of you. Sadly if you are returning from older editions, or are heaven forbid a completely new player, the CRB, even after errata is at best a tough read. If the intention of the book was to cater to only experienced players, then I take full responsibility for the misunderstanding. If this is meant to make the game more widely available to a new audience, it is a complete failure. I introduced it to my gaming group which has a number of RPG/tabletop/board gaming veterans, but none who had ever done anything with SR other than me, and they were/are baffled. I did my best to explain it and ask questions on the forums, but I admit that I too am often baffled by the rules. Luckily for me (and me alone), the quarantines put our planned play sessions on hold. I had hoped that I would see further errata and maybe firing line before things got back to normal and that they would smooth things out, but....they came out and things are still not smooth.
Even after two errata, the matrix portion of the rulebook still appears to be a rushed copy paste delete job from 5E that no one ever bothered to finish. If you can understand how that all works from the rulebook, then you are a better man that I; and I work with the United States Tax Code for a living. I would say that the what that section needs is 10-20 pages of examples, but the examples that are in the book are either riddled with errors themselves or do not actually focus on the complicated or novel parts of the rules. It is my firm belief that you either need to be a Shadowrun savant, willing to make huge sections of the rules up/house rule many situations, or have read a significant number of forum posts and third party material to have any hope of really understanding how all of this works together.
The rigging section (as is apparently tradition at this point?) is a horribly undercooked five pages of rules, that is mostly based on the matrix rules (not great) that adds a variety of other vague premises on top of it. Maybe everyone just knows that you have to wait for the new editions Rigger book before you can properly rigger....
I question your statement that you cannot find anyone having issues with matrix/rigging. I too have the internet, and have had no issues finding such things on this very forum, Reddit, and other places...It has not been that difficult.
Also, I see a lot of people, including yourself, referring to the 5E (or whatever edition) rulebook to essentially say....'well rigging was worse there, so you should be happy with whatever they shoveled into 6E'. I don't understand this. I personally did not play 5E, did I need to to enjoy 6E? Again, if this rulebook is just for hardcore veterans, I will see myself out...
Oh, and I don't know when you started playing SR, but in 1st - 3rd edition most of the gear in the source books had some sort of art, even the cyberware and bioware. Check it out if you haven't; it's not always the best art but it's pretty cool that it is there.
I can understand defending a product you enjoy...but not simply declaring things false because you don't have a problem with them.
As an aside to this, I think 5e did rigging better. It wasn't good, but the math worked far better. The math in 6e for rigging and dear god 2/3rd+ of the magic section is a pure train wreck.
6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.Don't worry, dezmont; I was told repeatedly a year ago that we were all just change-averse grognards who'd soon be playing 6e and swearing up and down we'd loved it all along. We can't be far away from that now, surely?
Yes, that was exactly what was said. CONFORM!6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.Don't worry, dezmont; I was told repeatedly a year ago that we were all just change-averse grognards who'd soon be playing 6e and swearing up and down we'd loved it all along. We can't be far away from that now, surely?
I can understand criticism, but not falsehoods.
6e has a problem where its bones just aren't great for the most part, which is why its so hard to imagine fixes for.Don't worry, dezmont; I was told repeatedly a year ago that we were all just change-averse grognards who'd soon be playing 6e and swearing up and down we'd loved it all along. We can't be far away from that now, surely?
Edit: Also, as related to the Matrix. I agree the system could stand to be further simplified and less complexThat might be what OP meant. Not so much "the Matrix doesn't work" as "the Matrix still doesn't work." Your table's mileage may vary, but you could certainly argue it should be pared back further than 6e did. I don't mind the detail level where it is, myself, but I don't think you'd be wrong to want that.
but I do think Banshee did a solid job of improvement from SR5. Could it be better, sure - but his work was solid, and I would also imagine he most likely didn't get to do all he would have liked.Well, yeah, I reckon so too: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30909.msg533986#msg533986 ;)
I have to basically agree that's what has been implied. I think Chandra referred to the "Stans" a couple threads ago, which apparently is his short hand for those of us who just haven't drunk the cool aid. But the truth is for 6e they aren't going to change 6e. They aren't going to fix something as simple as the AR/DR problem. They aren't going to do the re-write it would take make it playable. They just don't think it's a problem. After all the layout is really gorgeous. Why would they mess it up by making the rules work? It's the 5e TM issue all over. Even after they finally changed it they would never actually considered it a problem, it was simply all in our totally unreasonable grognard heads.
To be totally honest that is the current state of 6e.
Your table's mileage may vary, but you could certainly argue it should be pared back further than 6e did. I don't mind the detail level where it is, myself, but I don't think you'd be wrong to want that.
I have to basically agree that's what has been implied. I think Chandra referred to the "Stans" a couple threads ago, which apparently is his short hand for those of us who just haven't drunk the cool aid. But the truth is for 6e they aren't going to change 6e. They aren't going to fix something as simple as the AR/DR problem. They aren't going to do the re-write it would take make it playable. They just don't think it's a problem. After all the layout is really gorgeous. Why would they mess it up by making the rules work? It's the 5e TM issue all over. Even after they finally changed it they would never actually considered it a problem, it was simply all in our totally unreasonable grognard heads.
To be totally honest that is the current state of 6e.
Oh, I think they know itīs a problem ::)
But the party line here obviously is: "If you donīt fix it, it was never broken in the first place"
Well, letīs see how that turns out for them. I mean, if things are going according to plan, the playerbase will soon be receive an unprecedented influx of those fabled "fresh new players" that will finally appreciate 6th Edition as the Masterpiece it truly is. And then all of us bitter, bickering grogs wonīt matter anymore ;D
It's fine to not like the AR/DR/Edge mechanic. Some people think of pineapple on pizza as a travesty as well. Me, I like both. And I respect that sometimes other people don't.
However, it's kind of a stretch to expect CGL to have used FS as a means to change the direction of 6th ed's mechanics. Of course they weren't going to do that.
Dezzmont is right, 5e's bones were good and needed updating, streamlining and repairing in certain spots (*cough* rigging, *cough* matrix, *cough* magicrun) but instead we got the majority of of srun 5e's problems just transposed onto 6e's horrific relative advantage mechanic and even less information on how to run the game.
Perception is reality in branding. If you like the new edge system, good on ya. I am... sincerely confused at that, because it is hard to justify what it actually helps (It increases the time it takes to resolve combat and increases the amount of information tracked but reduces how important this information actually is), but I enjoy systems that are like... actually objectively totally broken rather than just designed in a questionable way, which means no one should take my opinion seriously for anything.
However, 6e as a brand is in a horrific spot, in the objective sense. Regardless of what you think of the quality of a game, it can end up here. 4e D&D was kinda low key great but ended up here, for example, despite now most people agreeing it was actually pretty good (and it influencing a LOT of games).
So, divorcing your mind from if SR6 is actually good or not (that, in a weird way, doesn't super matter. Exalted was bad and yet was crazy popular until it got into grimness porn) there is an unfortunate reality that... the market just doesn't feel anything about it anymore. When your community essentially rises up and has a rage spiral, it doesn't really matter if you think its justified or not because after their anger can't be sustained anymore if you don't make structural changes to bring them back to 'like' they aren't going to think about you at ALL. Losing relevance as a brand is terrifying, which is what SR6 managed to do.
It's fine to not like the AR/DR/Edge mechanic. Some people think of pineapple on pizza as a travesty as well. Me, I like both. And I respect that sometimes other people don't.The extension books were never going to be Shadowrun Essentials. At best you get more finesse to blunt instrument rules, or extra options, or optional rules. But they're not going to completely overhaul the mechanic of the same edition.
However, it's kind of a stretch to expect CGL to have used FS as a means to change the direction of 6th ed's mechanics. Of course they weren't going to do that.
I really hope the numbers aren't that bad. But it's easy to see why we don't hear much if they are that bad.
The extension books were never going to be Shadowrun Essentials. At best you get more finesse to blunt instrument rules, or extra options, or optional rules. But they're not going to completely overhaul the mechanic of the same edition.
I think the difference I see in the comparison to 4e D&D is even when it was active while a lot of people didn't like it, it was for the most part mathematically sound and seen that way.
Maybe the catalyst game store sells a lot more than drive through etc. I suspect you are right, but you never know.
I don't like D&D 5e very much but it makes gangbusters cash with tons of lucrative 3rd party deals based on mega popular IPs and so many books that are just flying off the shelves that they basically decided to leave RPG drivethru because they were doing so well they could just ignore a middle man, my feelings on 5e as a product are totally irrelevant when talking about its success as a product. No matter how much I don't like 5e D&D its a success.
You guys are killing me that that 4e talk though! :p That edition was easily my most disliked game I have ever played. It felt like I was trying to play a bad cookie cutter mmo as a table top game. All gimmick, no substance.
SR6's latest release is a 'silver best seller' despite being on a 50% discount for most of its 2 weeks of being out. That sounds neat, but as I overviewed before, if your below platinum you didn't break a thousand sales. Silver, for perspective, means that this book in its 'blockbuster debut period' sold less than 250 copies electronically. We have good reason to suspect the majority of SR's sales are electronic, including history and the fact that we are in the middle of a major viral outbreak and pickup sales from Barnes and Noble or FLGS are likely down, the book isn't available on Amazon yet, and the book isn't even a featured product or for sale in the Catalst store, so right now RPG drivethru is sorta the only location to obtain this book right now.
As they made over a million bucks on a Battletech Kickstarter not too long ago, they're probably more than fine financially.
As they made over a million bucks on a Battletech Kickstarter not too long ago, they're probably more than fine financially.
As long as Loren doesn't help himself to it for another "house renovation", you mean.
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.
I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.
On the DnD4e side of things, i will only sae this:I liked 4e, though it had weaknesses. But I stopped buying it when they had made balance mistakes and their response wasn't 'hey, use these tweaks to all monsters from MM1, and change these feats like this', no, instead they brought out D&D 4.25, aka 'Essentials'. And suddenly you had 2 versions of the same edition, and you had to check every book with which of the two it was compatible! But I did like 4e a lot, it made charbuilding relatively easy for me. I even had a 'future-vision' campaign where 3x I gave my players L10 versions of their characters for half a session, and that was quite doable for me to manage.
Any time you release a product thst opens the door to a competator, and that competator goes on to out sell your product, there is a serious issue...
Without DnD4e Pathfinder would never exist. The fact that Pathfinder went on to out sell DnD4e..... yikes.....
Pathfinder my main memory is 'okay so I have 10 likely combinations of my buffs written down for what they give me as attack and damage bonuses with 2-handed vs 1-handed strike' as combat cleric. When people claim Shadowrun is crunchy, I recall that table and laugh.
Actually, it's more than just better fluff. There's a number of mechanics that have exponentially increased the usability of 4E.I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.
Which is pretty ironic b/c PF2 is 4th with better fluff.
Actually, it's more than just better fluff. There's a number of mechanics that have exponentially increased the usability of 4E.I enjoy 5e a lot its clean and simple. Have ever checked out any of the live plays. Dimension 20 has some really funny ones. Id recommend giving 4e another chance. Maybe try running it? 4e had the issue where bad choices was too easy. But no edition is ever had as complete a character at 1st as 4th.I disagree, Pathfinder 2nd edition is way better that either of them.
Which is pretty ironic b/c PF2 is 4th with better fluff.
What kind of spell was it, and why was there a problem casting it at a vehicle? An indirect physical combat spell? Was the vehicle uncontrolled, or was the driver actively evading the attack?
If you decelerate safely, you only get to a stop slowly, yes. If you smash the brakes hard, it's obviously not safe, so the GM can call for a Handling test, at a threshold modifier of their choosing. So if it's a simple brake, they can just modify the threshold to 1 if they want. If it's a tricky one, they could make the test harder to pass. If you fail it, you face a crash test.
Full Bug Spirit stats always are in the Magic Book, but I can imagine it's frustrating a book using them only offers partial stats.
Firing Squad takes place over 1 year after Cutting Black starts, so it's not that strange that by then the Shadowcast talks about it. Lore in Crunch books is important to me, because otherwise all you have is a boring catalog. It's the lore tidbits that make Shadowrun more interesting than D&D for me.
IF they want to be proactive, there are a number of steps they can take.
1) Admit your sins. Admit the system as released is flawed and tell people what you're going to do about it. A lot of Catalyst's customer buy direct... poll them. Find if/how they are using the game.
2) Stop selling the 6ed core book now, immediately. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's about communicating to customers that you've heard them and you care.
3) Move the development budget from new product to fixing what exists. Delay new product launches.
4) Communicate a plan to your customers. Set expectations about what you intend to do. (i.e. no wholesale changes to the system or elimination of the AR/DR/Edge mechanic.)
5) Leverage the passionate people on this board and others. Many here are already actively trying to point out issues. No one seems to be listening. Setting up virtual, volunteer, working groups to tackles different parts of the system. It might fail horribly, but you might get something out of it. At least people will feel heard.
6) Produce a core rules supplement. Taking the time and effort to re-write the core rule book (v. 6.1, or windows 8.1) can wait. A rules, explanations and clarifications supplement should be the goal. This has to be much more expansive than the the errata.
Get this all done within the next 60 days and Catalyst stands a good chance of saving SR. If not, I'm afraid the system will die on the vine. All us old geezers will eventually walk away and the new kids won't take our place.
The system is flawed. 1st edition all the way to 6th edition had flaws, some worse than others. As for polling and communicating with the customers, they have no reason too since every time they have tried, they've been shouted down by people such as yourself that "know better" than they do.
IF they want to be proactive, there are a number of steps they can take.
1) Admit your sins. Admit the system as released is flawed and tell people what you're going to do about it. A lot of Catalyst's customer buy direct... poll them. Find if/how they are using the game.
2) Stop selling the 6ed core book now, immediately. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's about communicating to customers that you've heard them and you care.And, Shadowrun is no longer published except by Pegasus Press. Hope you know a good translator for all future gaming materials.
3) Move the development budget from new product to fixing what exists. Delay new product launches.Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend? The average freelancer makes pennies per word because that's what the publisher has a budget for. And, if they delay product launches until the "fans" are happy, you'll never see a new book again. Except from Pegasus Press (got that translator yet?)
4) Communicate a plan to your customers. Set expectations about what you intend to do. (i.e. no wholesale changes to the system or elimination of the AR/DR/Edge mechanic.)Why should they? As I said before, every time they have spoken about stuff, "fans" give them nothing but grief and tell them what a terrible job they are doing.
5) Leverage the passionate people on this board and others. Many here are already actively trying to point out issues. No one seems to be listening. Setting up virtual, volunteer, working groups to tackles different parts of the system. It might fail horribly, but you might get something out of it. At least people will feel heard.You do know that the passionate people on the board are already being used, right? The entire errata team on the boards is volunteers. I'm a volunteer. The only people I don't see volunteering are (mostly) the ones doing all the complaining. Are you passionate? Do you want to volunteer for the Errata team and spend hours of your free time going through the books, making notes and submitting them up the chain? Just contact Jayde Moon.
6) Produce a core rules supplement. Taking the time and effort to re-write the core rule book (v. 6.1, or windows 8.1) can wait. A rules, explanations and clarifications supplement should be the goal. This has to be much more expansive than the the errata.So, they should stop work on all new development and delay all product launches except for a book that you want and the "fans" are going to expect to get for free? Yep, sound business advice.
Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yetNot to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast. They didn't embellish it with any information other than what was in the podcast. They merely repeated something that anyone who listened to the podcast heard.
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend?Catalyst is not poor: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/battletech-clan-invasion
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend?Catalyst is not poor: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/battletech-clan-invasion
Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.
But nevertheless, Catalyst is not poor.
Technically a breach of the NDA? Apparently. The actions of a bad guy? I don't think so, no. I think you have to be pretty small-minded and petty to think this was a big deal.
Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.
Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yetNot to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast. They didn't embellish it with any information other than what was in the podcast. They merely repeated something that anyone who listened to the podcast heard.
Technically a breach of the NDA? Apparently. The actions of a bad guy? I don't think so, no. I think you have to be pretty small-minded and petty to think this was a big deal.
Also this happened once, not repeatedly.
Oh, and the nothing happened to the podcaster who let the NDA'd information into the public domain in the first place. Which is, y'know, completely appropriate, as the whole entire point of a preview live-play is to give a taste of the system to people, which the podcaster was doing.
Seems you're talking about something entirely different. The incidents I'm refering to are two separate cases, weeks apart, on this forum. Not reddit-posts. Neither was podcast-related.Despite one of their members repeatedly breaking NDA and deliberately posting information about the contents of SR6 CRB when it wasn't released yetNot to get in the way of your narrative with facts, but if anyone is reading this and wondering what this is about: a member of the errata team made a post on reddit that quoted something that had been said on a 6e pre-release live-play podcast.
Budget. Now that's funny. How much do you think they have to spend?Catalyst is not poor: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/battletech-clan-invasion
Sure, that's for a different product line to Shadowrun. Now I'm not suggesting they take money from one pool and spend it on a different pool. Why, that'd be unethical, and anyone who did that would surely be fired immediately.
But nevertheless, Catalyst is not poor.
I remember a few years ago over on the BattleTech forums there was doom and gloom about how Shadowrun was CGL's only concern and BattleTech was the stepchild.This forum needs a rofl-emoji.
Seriously I think Topps has Shadowrun/Battletech in a folder labeled "That other crap that wasn't Mage Knight that we bought from Whiz Kids".
Fans, "Hey Topps, did you realize that Shadowrun and Battletech are 2 of the top 5 recognized names in the Table Top RPG world? Right behind Dungeons and Dragon and Warhammer."
Topps Executive, "Warhammer? What's that? And Dungeons and Dragons, I totally saw that on Big Bang Theory, we own that? Did we get paid for that spot?"
Fans *Double Facepalm*
FastJack, some of those replies were unnecessarily hostile, don't you think? Bishop has a massive eight posts, so it's not exactly like he has beaten this horse into the ground like the rest of us.Maybe a little harsh, and I'm sorry about that. But the horse has been beaten and I'm not in the best place right now with all the crap in the wide world and my world.
Seriously I think Topps has Shadowrun/Battletech in a folder labeled "That other crap that wasn't Mage Knight that we bought from Whiz Kids".
Fans, "Hey Topps, did you realize that Shadowrun and Battletech are 2 of the top 5 recognized names in the Table Top RPG world? Right behind Dungeons and Dragon and Warhammer."
Topps Executive, "Warhammer? What's that? And Dungeons and Dragons, I totally saw that on Big Bang Theory, we own that? Did we get paid for that spot?"
Fans *Double Facepalm*
LOL ... so much this. I've been on those calls
I used to be in that department.Seriously I think Topps has Shadowrun/Battletech in a folder labeled "That other crap that wasn't Mage Knight that we bought from Whiz Kids".LOL ... so much this. I've been on those calls
Fans, "Hey Topps, did you realize that Shadowrun and Battletech are 2 of the top 5 recognized names in the Table Top RPG world? Right behind Dungeons and Dragon and Warhammer."
Topps Executive, "Warhammer? What's that? And Dungeons and Dragons, I totally saw that on Big Bang Theory, we own that? Did we get paid for that spot?"
Fans *Double Facepalm*
Maybe a little harsh, and I'm sorry about that. But the horse has been beaten and I'm not in the best place right now with all the crap in the wide world and my world.
Maybe a little harsh, and I'm sorry about that. But the horse has been beaten and I'm not in the best place right now with all the crap in the wide world and my world.
I hear you dude. If you feel like venting feel free to fire a PM.
There's some unhealed wounds that have been opened since 6e's launch.
You're right in that new people shouldn't have to deal with the fallout of the forum Edition Wars.
Hope you have better experiences going forward!
I do apologize for my behavior. I try to be welcoming, especially to new players. Having said that, "Welcome! Enjoy your stay, ask questions and try to avoid the drop-bears hiding over in the Secret History threads."Maybe a little harsh, and I'm sorry about that. But the horse has been beaten and I'm not in the best place right now with all the crap in the wide world and my world.
I hear you dude. If you feel like venting feel free to fire a PM.
I actually didn't find it too harsh. My intent was not to trash the dev team and I thought I made that clear, although maybe it came out that way. Actually anybody that takes on the task of trying to work on this game has my greatest respect. SR must be the most complex RPG and to try to simplify it is a monumental task. I'm disappointed that default reaction on this board is to be totally defensive of anything that is negative, even if it's framed in a constructive way.
And again... just a thought on customer acquisition & retention... if somebody joins your board and attempts to bring constructive thoughts about how to move something forward, maybe try welcoming that person rather than trying to tear down their ideas.
There is one legitimate criticism I've seen made of the 6e Matrix that I don't have a complete answer for: now that you can only hack PANs/Hosts and not devices, I think most people's reading of RAW means every minor hack of an exterior camera is now a full-on host dive unless the GM invents some handwaving reasons why this particularly security decker was a total incompetent who didn't want to make their network hacker proof.Connect to the camera with a direct connection.
Connect to the camera with a direct connection.
From there either spoof a command to the camera (turn 13 degrees to create a blind spot we so we can sneak pass it without passing its line of sight) without any access what so ever
...or hack the camera (which give you access on the host network, similar to how it did in previous edition).
Now that you have access on the camera and the host network (and, new in this edition, on all other cameras and maglocks and drones and elevators etc being part of the same network) you no longer need the direct connection. Use the access you already have and edit out your team and yourself from the live feed as you walk pass the camera.
...and since you now already have access on the whole network you just edit out you and your team as you walk pass the camera in the next corridor, without first spending time gaining access on it.
...same with the maglock at the end of the corridor that is also part of the same network. Just control the maglock to open, without spending time to first gain access on it.
For example you say to connect to the camera with a direct connection....is that a rule in 6E?There seem to be two benefits of using a direct connection in this edition:
Because you must hack each host in succession from the outside, having inside access to a site with a direct connection to the deepest host (if one exists) is valuable—especially when your Overwatch Score increases are based on all the hosts in which you maintain access at any given time, not just the one you’re currently using.
What we really need is either an official FAQ which answers a lot of these issues and provides some developer intention or maybe a matrix source book which provides this info (not a great option, but I would still probably buy it).I think we are about to get both.
If you can get physically close enough to the camera to plug something into it, and the camera cant see you doing that, then its not a very well set up camera. Imagine a typical security camera today: a wide-angle lens mounted 12-15 feet up a wall. How do you get up within arms reach of that without first being seen?There is one legitimate criticism I've seen made of the 6e Matrix that I don't have a complete answer for: now that you can only hack PANs/Hosts and not devices, I think most people's reading of RAW means every minor hack of an exterior camera is now a full-on host dive unless the GM invents some handwaving reasons why this particularly security decker was a total incompetent who didn't want to make their network hacker proof.Connect to the camera with a direct connection.
...or hack the camera (which give you access on the host network, similar to how it did in previous edition).Where are the rules that say that hacking a device that is inside a PAN/WAN that you have direct connection to is easier than hacking the device without the direction connection? I cant see anything in the 6e CRB.
If you can get physically close enough to the camera to plug something into it, and the camera cant see you doing that, then its not a very well set up camera. Imagine a typical security camera today: a wide-angle lens mounted 12-15 feet up a wall. How do you get up within arms reach of that without first being seen?
Also: you dont have one camera; you have multiple cameras with overlapping fields of view. So camera 2 is recording you as you climb a ladder to hack camera 1.
Also: why would an externally mounted camera have an accessible port anyway? Why wouldnt the corp have gunked it up with glue or just never fitted it in the first place? I prefer game mechanics that dont rely on NPCs being weird idiots.
Same thing with putting externally mounted cameras inside hosts. If the building has a security host - and most interesting buildings will - why wouldnt the outside cameras be inside the host? Thus meaning they become immune to all Matrix attacks unless the decker hacks the whole Host first. I havent seen any explanation for this, other than GM handwavium.
If you can get physically close enough to the camera to plug something into it, and the camera can’t see you doing that, then it’s not a very well set up camera. Imagine a typical security camera today: a wide-angle lens mounted 12-15 feet up a wall. How do you get up within arm’s reach of that without first being seen?Either you find a device that is easier to physically access
Also: you don’t have one camera; you have multiple cameras with overlapping fields of view. So camera 2 is recording you as you climb a ladder to hack camera 1.
why would an externally mounted camera have an accessible port anyway?To configure the device / turn on wireless if wireless was disabled...?
...Thus meaning they become immune to all Matrix attacks unless the decker hacks the whole Host first.you make it sound as if hacking the 'whole host' is this big thing.... Take the brute force action (once) and you will have User access on the host, the camera and all other devices that are also part of the host.
Where are the rules that say that hacking a device that is inside a PAN/WAN that you have direct connection to is easier than hacking the device without the direction connection? I can’t see anything in the 6e CRB.There seem to be two benefits of using a direct connection in this edition:
This is a case where game design breaks common sense.How so?
This is a case where game design breaks common sense.How so?
But in Shadowrun... all devices.. be that a Maglock, a camera, or even a drone! Doesn't need power. its just assumed they run on... I guess on cupcakes and fee-fees?
But in Shadowrun... all devices.. be that a Maglock, a camera, or even a drone! Doesn't need power. its just assumed they run on... I guess on cupcakes and fee-fees?
Previous editions had said that certain devices (like some kind of cyberware) are continuously re-charged by changes in ambient temperature/air pressures. And wirelessly recharging batteries is already a thing in RL... it's within my bounds for suspension of disbelief that devices can be powered 24/7 by wireless energy.
Look, if the game has to conform to physics, dragons and fireballs are out the window.
Chalk it up to "post Awakening, yes even the physics have changed due to mana" if you have to. You'll have more fun.
My background is in IT... the matrix rules are much more fun for me when I remember to willfully ignore reality and go with movie logic and what's "fun" and what's feasibly playable.
Look, if the game has to conform to physics, dragons and fireballs are out the window.
Chalk it up to "post Awakening, yes even the physics have changed due to mana" if you have to. You'll have more fun.
My background is in IT... the matrix rules are much more fun for me when I remember to willfully ignore reality and go with movie logic and what's "fun" and what's feasibly playable.
My point exactly.
You know what I am talking about when it comes to the matrix rules.. and how things interact...
The way the rules present thigns is just not possible.. And not only is it not possible - only a moron would configure their system that way!
YOU know it, I know it. Heck, even Banshee (who wrote the matrix rules) KNOWS it...
But that has to take a back seat because, the "mechanics" and "fun" say so... Even though the "mechanics" and "fun" have created a headache for almost all involved as they try to wrap their heads around the level of "Stoopid!" in the system.
Don't get me wrong. This is not a dig at Banshee. He(she) Did the best they could given what they had to work with. No fault of foul there.
I am saying the "mechanics" themselves need to really be addressed... And that includes this whole "Hack anything wirelessly" bullshit that has generated 95% of the problems for matrix actions, and that includes the #1 topic on these forums - "How do I stop 'X' gear from being hacked"....
Clearly.. they are not "Fun" for a large percent of the community..
Look, if the game has to conform to physics, dragons and fireballs are out the window.
Chalk it up to "post Awakening, yes even the physics have changed due to mana" if you have to. You'll have more fun.
My background is in IT... the matrix rules are much more fun for me when I remember to willfully ignore reality and go with movie logic and what's "fun" and what's feasibly playable.
My point exactly.
You know what I am talking about when it comes to the matrix rules.. and how things interact...
The way the rules present thigns is just not possible.. And not only is it not possible - only a moron would configure their system that way!
YOU know it, I know it. Heck, even Banshee (who wrote the matrix rules) KNOWS it...
But that has to take a back seat because, the "mechanics" and "fun" say so... Even though the "mechanics" and "fun" have created a headache for almost all involved as they try to wrap their heads around the level of "Stoopid!" in the system.
Don't get me wrong. This is not a dig at Banshee. He(she) Did the best they could given what they had to work with. No fault of foul there.
I am saying the "mechanics" themselves need to really be addressed... And that includes this whole "Hack anything wirelessly" bullshit that has generated 95% of the problems for matrix actions, and that includes the #1 topic on these forums - "How do I stop 'X' gear from being hacked"....
Clearly.. they are not "Fun" for a large percent of the community..
First considering the current events thank you for not gender assuming .. I identify as he for all common purposes.
Yeah .. i know using real world current technology and practices the game doesn't make sense.
That concept though extends to all aspects however, not just the matrix. It doesn't matter what you look at if you find an expert on that particular topic and will always get the "but it doesn't work that way in real life" argument. Construction, mechanics, weaponry, communications, law enforcement, security, politics, biology, etc ...
So for me in my head I just accept the fact that the world works differently either because of altered metaphysics or unknown twists in advancment and don't over think it.
As for the question of "how do I make a thing unhackable?" Answer is you don't, hacking is one of the foundations that cyberpunk fantasy is built on if it was "easy" to make things unhackable then you would be removed an important aspect at its core. You would be just as well off to ignore the matrix as anything more than an information source.
Indeed. I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't. You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."
Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds. But of course: YMMV.
I always felt they went the exact opposite route to how they should have with the wi-fi. You have to accept people making illogical actions for it to work. Not only does your camera have a port it is easily accessible, its not behind a panel that would take 4-5 turns to remove with a screw driver. People will turn on their cyber to wi-fi even though the benefit to do so is minor.
I'd have preferred to put the effect on the cyber deck. Let a cyber deck hack and defend things within its range whether or not they are wireless. It uses blah blah technology sending out a energy that allows it to directly interact with technology. Its sci-fi you can say because its future tech we don't understand. The noise crap we have now would exist but only for direct connections. You want to hack it through the host, you can do that from anywhere on the planet its just going to be damn hard since you are tackling a host. You want to hack that lock directly, good luck past X range, maybe require line of sight but if you are close enough its a routine task. Allow people to hack multiple devices of the same type at once. You want to hack all the cameras in the room, here you go this is how its done.
When it comes to things like cyber have in the cybers description a list of how/ways it can be hacked. No, spike and melting a characters ware, but you can turn it off and make it difficult to start, maybe have it be able to overclock ware to make it more effective, hacking sensors like cyber eyes or ears you can send false images/sounds, remove the same.
I'd rather say, hmm that tech in my future sci-fi game is a bit of a stretch than say wow security professionals really acts dumb with their wi-fi.
If deckers filled the thief role via opening doors, turning off security and also had a buff/de-buff role with all tech I think they'd be more interesting. I know one of the sprites can or at least could in 5e buff tech, but that should have been a norm for deckers/technomancers though with different mecanics. Like for example if you could increase/decrease a rating of ware knocking it down to 0 effectively turned it off, and allow it to exceed augmented max but with some kind of strain mechanic. That would be a pretty awesome role. It would also be a nice perk for mundanes, if you made it harder to work on magically active types with ware. And hell make it easier to debuff their ware as well.
<<wall of text about how to make RL security safe from being breached and how powering electronic devices wireless via induction is not realistic enough>>This is a game. A game that features astral space, magic and even dragons.
If deckers filled the thief role via opening doors, turning off security...This is already their primary role as I see it.
... and also had a buff/de-buff role with all techIt seem as if this is where technomancers come into the picture?
Rules are more similar to 5th edition than you seem to realize...I wrote a 43 page document comparing them line-by-line, Xenon. I am familiar.
So... similar mechanics, just that access now go both upstream and downstream which make access network based (while marks in 5th edition only went upstream which made marks icon based).You're answering something I didn't ask. What I said was "you can only hack PANs/Hosts and not devices, I think most people's reading of RAW means every minor hack of an exterior camera is now a full-on host dive unless the GM invents some handwaving reasons". I didn't ask for a comparison of 5e and 6e. Bashee's work has made 6e's Matrix rules better, but there's still plenty wrong (I suspect because of sacred cows he wasn't allowed to slaughter.)
In this edition direct connection let you ignore nestled hosts. This meant you could for example establish a direct connection to an exposed device, such as a maglock. Hack that to gain access on both the maglock and the host (but in this edition you also gain access on all other devices that are also part of the host). Then enter the nestled host (without doing a deep dive through all the outer layers of the onion) to gain a direct connection to the camera. Since you already have access there is no need to hack the camera so you just take the Edit File action directly.I think this is a nonsensical reading, so much so I think I must be misreading you. Suppose you have a setup with a building control host A. Inside that is a security host, B, where the cameras and turrets are attached. Also inside A, but not inside B, is a beefy firewall host, C. Inside C is a juicy datastore hose D.
This is a case where game design breaks common sense. And its been this way since 4e.Yeah. All I want is a game with a set of rules that can fit inside my feeble brain, that are internally consistent, and that don't make me go "wait, but why?!" more than, say, once a session.
Don't get me wrong. This is not a dig at Banshee. He(she) Did the best they could given what they had to work with. No fault of foul there.+1, to avoid any doubt. Reading between the lines a little, I think Banshee was given latitude to make incremental changes only. He made very good ones. I also think the Matrix rules in 4/5/6e Shadowrun can't be made to sing with just incremental changes. I would very much like to see what would happen if Banshee was given free reign.
And wirelessly recharging batteries is already a thing in RL... it's within my bounds for suspension of disbelief that devices can be powered 24/7 by wireless energy.For the record: I am OK with buying into wireless power delivery via the Matrix. I realise it's almost completely unexplainable via modern physics. But I'll swallow that pill in order to never give a shit about the battery life on my PC's commlinks, because - and I cannot stress this enough - fuck that noise.
Look, if the game has to conform to physics, dragons and fireballs are out the window.
...
My background is in IT... the matrix rules are much more fun for me when I remember to willfully ignore reality and go with movie logic and what's "fun" and what's feasibly playable.
This is a game. A game that features astral space, magic and even dragons.Yes, but also no. I don't think it's quite that simple. It's the dreaded "verisimilitude" argument again.
It is not the GM's job to build perfect fortresses that are impossible for players to penetrate...
Having rebellious cyber-cowboys slicing through corporate IC is a huge part of the setting.
Please accept this.
Indeed. I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't. You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."Uh: be a hobo mage who doesn't own a commlink? Be a physad carrying a burner commlink that's only used to broadcast a fake SIN? Be a streetsam using an internal router? Be a streetsam who's just willing to give up a few dice of wireless bonuses? Be a rigger driving a pre-2075 Matrix-2.0 vehicle via direct connection? Be a Barrens ganger who can't afford a commlink?
Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds. But of course: YMMV.
you make it sound as if hacking the 'whole host' is this big thing.... Take the brute force action (once) and you will have User access on the host, the camera and all other devices that are also part of the host. This is resolved as one single test.Compared to rolling one Spoof Command action against an individual camera? Yes, it is. Because once the decker hacks the host, you have GOD on the table, you have at least Patrol IC on the table, and maybe offensive IC will come into play. It's immediately more complex. Also, there's probably a lot more dice being rolled against the decker than a hack of a standalone device, so the decker's gonna think about their decisions, maybe reconfigure their deck first, etc etc. It's a significantly bigger deal than just hacking the camera, in terms of mechanics that must be invoked, in terms of things for the GM to track, and in terms of potential consequences in the fiction.
Xenon has it right, a direct connection allows you to bypass the nested host. What that means is if the camera is inside Host B by direct connection to the camera you can gain access to Host B without going through Host A. It also means you can then try to gain access to any nested Host that B is connected to.Thanks Banshee. That's how I thought it worked.
So if it's a linear hierarchy... A then B then C ... a direct connection to B means you never have to worry about A if you want to get to C.
In this edition direct connection let you ignore nestled hosts. This meant you could for example establish a direct connection to an exposed device, such as a maglock. Hack that to gain access on both the maglock and the host (but in this edition you also gain access on all other devices that are also part of the host). Then enter the nestled host (without doing a deep dive through all the outer layers of the onion) to gain a direct connection to the camera.as suggesting you can move onto a host within B automatically, or even other nested hosts within host A, without it being a further hack. But that might just be how that post is worded and not what he meant.
In the long run it adds a layer of complexity that is heavily influenced by 3E, but I felt that with the changes made to the actions (especially economy) as well as making access requirements dependent on the network and not devices alleviated the pizza run hack days. I found during playtest that a "deep dive host hack" didn't require any more time or actions than a street sam taking out a few thugs.Yeah, I think that's fair. I'd add that another difference in 6e compared to 1/2/3e is that the hostmaps are much smaller and can be reserved for special occasions. As I recall the old days, even very small hosts had half a dozen nodes. My reading of 6e is that most places are still one host, and occasionally for really big stuff, the GM might throw in a 2-3 nested hosts. Which means GMs can reserve hostmaps for circumstances where they are confident they can pull off the spotlight management, as opposed to being faced with dealing with it routinely.
So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.
Yes ... nested Hosts are not the standard and should be used only when the GM wants that added layer of complexity and/or security.
To be fair, I can understand 'I never know how tough a Matrix run will be due to these hidden extra options', since the book doesn't explicitly note for GMs 'hey this is a balance tool, use it wisely'. But honestly that sounds like it's something between GM and players to talk out.So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.
Exactly... I left as much as possible open ended on purpose so everything can be tailored to the specific group style.
Honestly the only "majorly" negative feedback I've seen are from people who feel the flexibility is a detriment rather than a strength (or need every little thing spelled out for them).
To be fair, I can understand 'I never know how tough a Matrix run will be due to these hidden extra options', since the book doesn't explicitly note for GMs 'hey this is a balance tool, use it wisely'. But honestly that sounds like it's something between GM and players to talk out.So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.
Exactly... I left as much as possible open ended on purpose so everything can be tailored to the specific group style.
Honestly the only "majorly" negative feedback I've seen are from people who feel the flexibility is a detriment rather than a strength (or need every little thing spelled out for them).
Indeed. I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't. You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."Uh: be a hobo mage who doesn't own a commlink? Be a physad carrying a burner commlink that's only used to broadcast a fake SIN? Be a streetsam using an internal router? Be a streetsam who's just willing to give up a few dice of wireless bonuses? Be a rigger driving a pre-2075 Matrix-2.0 vehicle via direct connection? Be a Barrens ganger who can't afford a commlink?
Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds. But of course: YMMV.
Aren't there tons of ways to become unhackable?
In particular, consider the trope of the offline host: eg. an Azzie corp facility in the middle of the jungle with a host full of juicy R&D paydata. You want to invoke the trope that everything's wirelessly hackable: fine. But another trope is mercenaries fighting into compounds to get data. You can't have both tropes.
If an icon is inside a host, you can't do anything to it without being inside the host first.In the case of the Edit File action it does not really matter since you need User Access.
But if they do, I'm struggling to see what the new no-marks Spoof Command is really for.You can use Spoof Command when you have a direct connection to the device.
are you suggesting that a direct connection to a camera (on host B) allows you to jump directly to host D, bypassing hacks on hosts A and C?No, I suggest that a direct connection to a camera (on host B) let you hack (and enter) host B without first hacking host A (or any other outer onion layered hosts). Once you hacked host B (without hacking host A or any other outer onion layer hosts) you would already have access on all security devices that are also part of host B. Such as elevators, cameras, alarms, drones, gun turrets, maglocks, sensors.....
Xenon knows this better than most of us , because he spends endless hours answering questions about it, on here and Reddit. For some reason he keeps insisting it's all fine, though.I take that as a compliment. Thank you.
If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the items Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).
It's a wireless world. You can struggle against it or you can embrace it.
For me, the "why would anyone accept the inherent risks" comes down to two things:
For Joe Pedestrians: Are you flipping serious in that they're somehow more security minded than real world people who willingly walk around with smart phones 24/7?
Remember: EVERYTHING is wireless. Being some sort of "I don't want to be hacked" kook looks to people in the Sixth world like people who insist electricity causes the plague look to the rest of us in the real world. It's at least as hard to go truly wireless in the Sixth World as it is to live without electricity in the real world. Yes, it's theoretically possible. No, not without fundamentally forsaking modern society entirely.
It's the dreaded "verisimilitude" argument again.So you need an argument why the camera have a physical port...?
"if you can plug into the port on the security camera, you can hack it more easily."Note that in this edition the camera will still defend with the firewall of the host even if you connect to it via a cable!
Aren't there tons of ways to become unhackable?Not for the facility the team is hired to break into.
Why doesn't the decker stay at home in their cosy apartment, and hack remotely?He can do that.
Compared to rolling one Spoof Command action against an individual camera?For a camera you probably need User access on the network the device is part of anyway (for the continuous Edit File action).
Because once the decker hacks the host, you have GOD on the tableIf you use Brute Force then you have limited time before GOD come crashing down, agreed.
Maintaining illegal access to anything on the Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal User-level access, +3 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal Admin-level access.
If the test is successful, you gain Admin access to the target, and it does not count as illegal Admin access
Also, there's probably a lot more dice being rolled against the decker than a hack of a standalone deviceDevices in 5th edition was typically not slaved to a host unless they could be physically protected (because of the direct connect exploit). They also had a firewall rating of their own and failed attack actions caused unresisted matrix damage back to the hacker.
because of the direct connection hack you rarely see more devices than can be protected physically.
I read this post by Xenon:If you use a direct connection to a device that is part of Host B then you can hack Host B (and enter it if you like) without first hacking Host A (still only having Outsider access on Host A).In this edition direct connection let you ignore nestled hosts. This meant you could for example establish a direct connection to an exposed device, such as a maglock. Hack that to gain access on both the maglock and the host (but in this edition you also gain access on all other devices that are also part of the host). Then enter the nestled host (without doing a deep dive through all the outer layers of the onion) to gain a direct connection to the camera.as suggesting you can move onto a host within B automatically, or even other nested hosts within host A, without it being a further hack. But that might just be how that post is worded and not what he meant.
Because you must hack each host in succession from the outside, having inside access to a site with a direct connection to the deepest host (if one exists) is valuable—especially when your Overwatch Score increases are based on all the hosts in which you maintain access at any given time, not just the one you’re currently using.
I'd add that another difference in 6e compared to 1/2/3e is that the hostmaps are much smaller and can be reserved for special occasions. As I recall the old days, even very small hosts had half a dozen nodes. My reading of 6e is that most places are still one host, and occasionally for really big stuff, the GM might throw in a 2-3 nested hosts. Which means GMs can reserve hostmaps for circumstances where they are confident they can pull off the spotlight management, as opposed to being faced with dealing with it routinely.Yes.
So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.Yes. This is also how I see it.
I see your point.
I just happen to think that yes, people "stupidly" allowing history to repeat itself is quite believable rather than unbelievable.
Surely one can think of lots of other examples in the real world of the same incredibly dangerous, stupidly dangerous, attitudes being carried through events that "should" have smacked us in the face with a wake up call.
It's the dreaded "verisimilitude" argument again.So you need an argument why the camera have a physical port...?
Don't regular real life devices (such as cameras, access points etc) normally have some sort of network or USB port in addition to their wireless capability?
If not, how do you configure/set it up for the first time....?
(I am more of a software person so I might be totally off here, but with my limited knowledge it seems perfectly fine that a security camera also have a USB port of sorts....?).
It's the dreaded "verisimilitude" argument again.So you need an argument why the camera have a physical port...?
Don't regular real life devices (such as cameras, access points etc) normally have some sort of network or USB port in addition to their wireless capability?
If not, how do you configure/set it up for the first time....?
(I am more of a software person so I might be totally off here, but with my limited knowledge it seems perfectly fine that a security camera also have a USB port of sorts....?).
But generally, not within the same generation. Usually what happens is there is a calamity of some sort, everyone gets wise and stops doing it for a while (and in some cases Laws will be passed to prevent it from happening again).. And people adapt.. Then, a generation or two later, someone starts to walk down that slippery road that originally lead to the original calamity again.... Usually with the same results... and the same consequences.
From Crash 1.0 to now, we are barely a generation apart. From the Crash 2.0 to the wireless matrix was only 18 months!
From an AI turning the Arcology into a slaughterhouse to the wireless matrix (which would have allowed the AI to cause CITY wide mayhem!) we were just 6 years...
Some more on the topic of "Why is everything wireless? That's unrealistic!":
Some more on the topic of "Why is everything wireless? That's unrealistic!":
I think part of the problem is that you are always going to have a harder time changing things that have common real world analogues for a game. It reminds me a lot of 'the uncanny valley' for animation. The farther away from reality it is the more your mind will happily accept it, the closer you get to realism the more your brain goes 'nuh-uh, this ain't right'.
That is why you can add dragons and fire balls and laser guns and all that stuff an no one bats an eye. Magic fireballs aren't real...the author can say that they are whatever they want them to be and no one has any reason to argue. So you could say that all fireballs are rainbow colored and take the shape of Danny DeVito's head...no problem! And that doesn't just apply to fantastical/magical things; there is a laser gun shaped like a flintlock pistol in Firing line, and no one has any problem with that because we don't have common man portable lasers....our brains are not put off by this.
Wireless electronics/internet, on the other hand, is something that we all deal with in our day to day lives. We see and often interact with building security on a regular basis. We know what to expect from these things, and the version that the developers of the game included are too close to the real world analogues....our brains know that it is wrong and they fight back!
There seem to have be three options which would have made people happy with the setup. You could either make the matrix work like the internet does today, you can make it sufficiently different from what people are accustomed to that they dont automatically compare it, or you could come up with a handwavy reason why it is the way it is (a la Sci Fi like Warhammer 40k...the tech is dumb and old because it was mostly all lost and they have to keep using the small portion of lost tech they have found again...a common sci fi trope).
The matrix wars will rage as long as your game sits in the 'uncanny valley'...
That is why you can add dragons and fire balls and laser guns and all that stuff an no one bats an eye. Magic fireballs aren't real...the author can say that they are whatever they want them to be and no one has any reason to argue.Except... wanna know something about Shadowruns history? Do you know why SRs magic system stands out amongst RPGs as being one of the most real feeling? With a ton of interesting details, yet fitting within an over-arching, consistent framework that can be explained in a few dozen pages?
The big difference is it's easy to predict where magic will go in the game, since it's all fiction.That is why you can add dragons and fire balls and laser guns and all that stuff an no one bats an eye. Magic fireballs aren't real...the author can say that they are whatever they want them to be and no one has any reason to argue.Except... wanna know something about Shadowruns history? Do you know why SRs magic system stands out amongst RPGs as being one of the most real feeling? With a ton of interesting details, yet fitting within an over-arching, consistent framework that can be explained in a few dozen pages?
Because Paul Hume, one of the 1e/2e core writers, was a real-life scholar of Alesteir-Crowley-style hermetic magic. And he drew on that to make the astral space, summoning, and spell casting framework that - because it was so damned good - survives almost unchanged in SR to this day [1]. And yeah, its fiction, but also, its almost completely internally consistent.
Look around any SR community and look at the number of can a mage do... versus can a decker do... threads. The latter vastly outnumber the former, even though we have real world intuitions for the latter that should help us out.
All I want is a decking system that makes as much sense as the magic system.
[1] Yes, weve had things like UMT, more for game mechanic reasons than for narrative reasons. And grounding is gone. But even UMT is a small change compared to what has happened to decking, which is on something like its 4th or 5th ground-up rewrite depending on how you count. (At least one splat changed so much to count as a new game, IIRC; maybe Virtual Realities 2.0?)
I think the biggest issues here has always been that the developers are trying to give the Deckers to much to do.
Same goes for security systems. If you make them as powerful/secure as they are in real life then you run the risk of making them to unbreakable for the average street level PC group to bypass and every run turns into a fire fight, which most teams are going to be outgunned in.
All I want is a decking system that makes as much sense as the magic system.
All I want is a decking system that makes as much sense as the magic system.
What I want is a decking system that's parallel to the magic system. Hackers should have a Matrix attribute the way magicians have a Magic attribute. Matrix perception should work like astral perception. Virtual reality like astral projection. Agent programs should behave like spirits. Cyberprograms should be like spells (e.g., Invisibility to Cameras, Fake Identity, Open Maglock, Destroy Device). Drain applied as Matrix damage to the deck.
It seems so obvious to me. Shrug. Maybe next edition.
I think for hackers to ever be fixed someone needs to nail down not how they do the thing (Which is essentially what the matrix updates always are) but what they do. Do they control information and mess with devices to support their team? Fine, focus on creating actions that make that useful. Do they need to be physically present? Fine, then find ways to make hackers have actions that make them feel powerful for being somewhere, like giving out awesome target locks or creating Trideo Illusions. Can they be remote? Then focus on them as someone managing something constantly for the team (such as having tech based threats, again sensor locks or passive alarms and the like are a good way to make something that doesn't ruin you if you don't have a decker but helps you if you do) that create choices based on a limited economy (such as processing power rather than action economy) so that they feel involved in the action actively making choices and tradeoffs that can have consequences for the team to make up for them not risking death..
Basically hackers can't just exist so the game has hackers, and the matrix system can't exist with the assumption that it will be used just to justify hackers. Many games exist with cool sensor and EWAR and computer rules (Traveller, EP, and many of the star trek RPGs come to mind) that justify tech abilities helping in scenes. Give hackers software to map relationships in social scenes, or make an action that represents a one and done action to get a bunch of personal dirt from a comlink and social media rather than creating a whole subscene where you painstakingly decrypt a bunch of different files from a comlink. Useful actionable abilities are what make a role a role. Hackers are currently designed like mages without any spells or spirits being in the game. The hacking subsystem can be tweaked and streamlined and improved as much as anyone cares to do it, but it is ultimately a subsystem looking for a point.Same goes for security systems. If you make them as powerful/secure as they are in real life then you run the risk of making them to unbreakable for the average street level PC group to bypass and every run turns into a fire fight, which most teams are going to be outgunned in.
Security systems are not at all secure in real life. In fact, SR security systems tend to be unrealistically strong.
There is a reason the standard is to design as if you WILL face a major leak and to do things like storing secure information in a manner you yourself can't access it. Major companies don't just get minor data steals in real life, password pastebin leaks are a major thing (seriously, google 'have I been PWNed') and really basic well known ways to create system insecurity such as XSS vulnerabilities or failing to revoke session tokens still occur.
Easy way to make Magic and Matrix use the same rules
Create skills that read the same for both:
Astral = Virtual Reality
Conjuring = Tasking
Enchanting = Electronics
Sorcery = Cracking
Change up how the types are:
Shaman = Technomancers
Mages = Deckers
In other words, Shaman are more tied to conjuring and using magic by force of will, while Mages use tools like spellbooks, wands, potions, etc. to access the magic with a buffer between them and the astral.
Easy way to make Magic and Matrix use the same rules
Create skills that read the same for both:
Astral = Virtual Reality
Conjuring = Tasking
Enchanting = Electronics
Sorcery = Cracking
Change up how the types are:
Shaman = Technomancers
Mages = Deckers
In other words, Shaman are more tied to conjuring and using magic by force of will, while Mages use tools like spellbooks, wands, potions, etc. to access the magic with a buffer between them and the astral.
I've shared that pipe dream of having magic and matrix share a single set of rules where only the names for the component mechanics are different.
I've never come up with something workable though. Not while complying with lore/fluff, at any rate. You'd probably have to redefine the nature of astral and/or the matrix worlds with an eye towards this goal.
You're not wrong... but moves far less bold have already drawn howling.
And that's not to demean those who don't like things like armor not adding to soak... I was just as big a complainer years ago when variable TNs went to hits, and UMT imposed changes on the metaphysics of the setting.
Deckers have 3 major weaknesses...I actually feel that deckers are far more accessible than they ever been before (except perhaps 4th edition that didn't even feature cyberdecks at all). Both Skill-wise and Resource-wise (this also seem to be one of the design goals for this edition's matrix rules). As a result it seem to be far easier for non-hacker characters to branch into a secondary hacking role or for primary hacker characters to branch out into a non-hacking-related secondary role.
Analytical Mind needs to die in a dumpster-fire and nerfed to death. When compared to Photographic Memory, it is clear the RAI there doesn't match the RAW.
Analytical Mind is so bonkers RAW that itīs even an OP quality for non-Hackers and non-mages. You basically get free Edge for thinking, FFS! What kind of maniac thought this was an appropriate quality?Agreed. Id have a lot more confidence in the 6e errata process if we werent somehow on almost a year and three major errata publications and this rule still somehow surviving untouched. Baffling.
Analytical Mind is so bonkers RAW that itīs even an OP quality for non-Hackers and non-mages. You basically get free Edge for thinking, FFS! What kind of maniac thought this was an appropriate quality?Agreed. Id have a lot more confidence in the 6e errata process if we werent somehow on almost a year and three major errata publications and this rule still somehow surviving untouched. Baffling.
It's a tax for Hackers. Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax. Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking. It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.
I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting. But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
It's a tax for Hackers. Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax. Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking. It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.
I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting. But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.
It's a tax for Hackers. Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax. Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking. It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.
I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting. But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
My experience has been that, statistically, deckers are usually on the back foot with hosts, just generally, and that that seems intentional. The max rating for a host is now 12 which could easily mean Firewall 15 and DP 14. A decker could rock up with 26 dice including a wild die and still have a tough time getting in the front door. I mean backdoor.
As far as edge generation itself, while host diving, the rating 4 example upthread seems to acknowledge the exploit program but not the Hog boost. If the numbers are close denying edge or gaining edge is doable. You are at that point spending edge to make edge but as long as your attack attribute is high enough that you make back the 2 you spent plus a bit more, you can spend more.
Meanwhile, hacking a PAN results in the opposite. A decker will alsmost always gain edge unless they are facing another decker/technomancer or someone stupid/confident enough to slave their PAN to a host.
I think this is all just evidence for Dezmont's point that the rules dont provide a specific role for deckers. Ultimately one will have to do it for oneself, but it would be nice if the mechanics were more supportive.
To that end, we need good edge actions and more ASDF upgrades in the form of programs and gear. The solution to getting hacked shouldn't be 'turn your wi-fi off' or 'hope your decker has your back.' And the solution to busting up hosts shouldn't be 'spend lots of edge from Analytical Mind.'
Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.
Also also, it would be nice if there were some indications of what rating a host ought to be. I remember there being something in Data Trails but the core book let me down in that edition too. Frankly, that *excrement* is important.
Well just because Host ratings can go that high doesn't mean they should, and yes I know the book doesn't talk about that. That sort of thing was supposed to be covered in a GM section.Man, that sucks. For whatever its worth coming from this internet stranger Im sorry your work wasnt presented in the best light, Banshee.
Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.
People want that because it was the last time that the structure of the Matrix was clear. Ignoring the obvious issues with First through Third edition hacking, it was easy to picture exactly what was happening. You have a deck, you plug it into an jackpoint, you run through the separate dungeon that is the host structure....easy!
The wireless Matrix does better represent the 'real world', but it adds many many layers of complexity when it comes to what is actually happening. And then 6E came out and took out nearly all of the context, making something that was conceptually difficult in 4E and 5E impossible to parse.
I honestly do not believe that anyone could figure out the Matrix structure and rules using only the 6E rulebook, using nothing from prior edition knowledge or rulebooks. The section is simply incomplete, full stop.
So, understandably people gravitate to the last time the rules made some modicum of sense....
I have to admit, I have thought Shadowrun could have used a GM section filled with examples of dice pools, and thresh holds. Yes, there are examples in the various rules, but that does really replace a good GM section.More GM info is good but given how people got nasty about rewards and training times, despite them clearly stating they're guidelines, I'm not sure if more example thresholds than are in the book now would be a good idea.
Too bad it got chopped, as it might have answered more then a few questions people have had over the years...
More GM info is good but given how peoplegot nasty about rewards and training times, despite them clearly stating they're guidelines, I'm not sure if more example thresholds than are in the book now would be a good idea.
I happen to know that the SRM FAQ people thought long and hard about what to do about training times for organized play.It doesnt matter how carefully you describe something as being merely a suggestion if they are, objectively, just really, really bad ideas.
...
But for what it's worth, the CRB's rule is that the GM simply says how long training takes. the "suggestions" may look like official rules due to being incorporated into the Advancement Costs table, but at the core of things those times are still just a suggestion on how long training should take in a campaign. As stated, admittedly understatedly, in the Character Advancement rules preceding that table...
What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. Im not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But lets be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.
Time is basically a third metacurrency. It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire. There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important. But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.
Chill a bit.What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. Im not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But lets be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.
Time is basically a third metacurrency. It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire. There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important. But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.
Chill a bit.What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. Im not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But lets be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.
Time is basically a third metacurrency. It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire. There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important. But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.
Remember, some groups have it set that there may be a year downtime between their runs. Not every group has the characters going one run to another with minimal downtime.
Remember, some groups have it set that there may be a year downtime between their runs. Not every group has the characters going one run to another with minimal downtime.With 3 runs per 2 months, and 3 simultaneous trainings, using both training guidelines and reward guidelines you still run short on karma.
I happen to know that the SRM FAQ people thought long and hard about what to do about training times for organized play.It doesnt matter how carefully you describe something as being merely a suggestion if they are, objectively, just really, really bad ideas.
...
But for what it's worth, the CRB's rule is that the GM simply says how long training takes. the "suggestions" may look like official rules due to being incorporated into the Advancement Costs table, but at the core of things those times are still just a suggestion on how long training should take in a campaign. As stated, admittedly understatedly, in the Character Advancement rules preceding that table...
Lets be clear: the suggestions are six months to take Firearms from 5->6 and a full year to take Agility from 5->6. I cannot imagine anyones table being the better for accepting these times. The fact that even the SRM team rejected them should tell you how bad these are, given how closely SRM hews to RAW.
Theyre a waste of paper. Just because theyre suggestions doesnt mean its OK that they suck. The book would be flat-out better if that table was just completely deleted.
Edit - and actually youre overselling what the CRB says anyway: The time it takes to raise any given ability is truly only suggestedthe actual time used is up to the gamemaster, with times best fitting the story they want to tell, but we offer the listed times to create a general consensus. (emphasis mine). Thats a bit stronger than heres some numbers, ignore them if you want. GMs are being encouraged to riff on these numbers, not discard them out of hand.
You're not wrong Reaver, but this is also a game. I firmly believe that, when playing a game, the majority of players would prefer to receive the benefit of their karma spends relatively quickly, rather than potentially 10 or more sessions later (which is only 1 run/month).
Skillwires... I know Kung Fu...! :)
What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. Im not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But lets be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.
Time is basically a third metacurrency. It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire. There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important. But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.
GM should make it clear up front how they're ruling per game. If not, you'll be in awkward place of misaligned expectations and probably players looking for another game/table.
Seriously, there are real issues that deserve the Salt. This is such a minor thing in the grand scheme
In my humble opinion, the writers would do well to stay away from any political issues of the time and trying to wrap that into Shadowrun, They never age well, nor do the general public have much appetite for Political Causes in their entertainment as a whole...What's left if you take the politics out of cyberpunk? Cool neon lights but without downtrodden masses and sticking it to the man? Cyber...pop?
In my humble opinion, the writers would do well to stay away from any political issues of the time and trying to wrap that into Shadowrun, They never age well, nor do the general public have much appetite for Political Causes in their entertainment as a whole...What's left if you take the politics out of cyberpunk? Cool neon lights but without downtrodden masses and sticking it to the man? Cyber...pop?
Modern Politics isn't important to punk, the classic themes of oppression, Prejudice, Bigotry, Sexism, exploitation, over population, resource competition are and thus by extension are important to Cyberpunk.
You are proving my point...
cyberpunk as a genre is political at it's heart, no doubt.
IMHO it's mostly about how rampant, over-abundant technology and late stage capitalism dehumanizes people and tears apart communities.
Taken together you can boil it down to capitalism and technology destroy humanity (physically and metaphorically).
In this milieu I am totally fine with the core conceits that:
> installing invasive tech into your body dehumanizes you (essence)
> the fantasy races all have built-in limits to their capabilities, some of which make them greater than humans and some of which make them lesser (attribute variances)
> some people are special/ born lucky (awakened vs mundane)
> transhumanism (metahumanity is changing as it becomes more intimately integrated with technology)
I don't have the same reservations/ beliefs that Dezzmont does on these topics.
I consider them good as they drive conflict, and every good story needs conflict at it's core.
Racism, political divisiveness, downtrodden, corporate overlords, societal collapse, alternate communities.
These are all memes that are important to my cyberpunk experience.
Stuff
Every. Single. Point. You, Dezmont, said was picked right from Twitter
I can tell you what the people here are concerned about; They want water that isn't diseased, they want to be able to go to work with out getting shot. They want the terrorism to stop. They want to send their children to school without fear of it being firebombed, and this child shot while trying escape the flames...
They are tired of those "fighting for a better tomorrow" raping, and beating their Daughters, and killing their Sons. They want to know that the money they have in their pocket today will be able to buy food tomorrow: Because many times it hasn't. Many of them want a return of only 15 years ago.... When they were happy, prosperous and free.
This is a far more modern take on Cyberpunk created mostly through cyberpunk gaming, and doesn't have much to do with the origins of the genre. While it is ok for genres to evolve, maybe lets not evolve them to these kinda gross places.
An exploration of foundational cyberpunk literature and film and the idea of technology as a 'destructive' force.
The Sprawl Trillogy: Explicitly pro-transhumanism, though it notes society isn't currently set up to support it. The Sprawl does note some people are self destructive through technology, but it is far more anti-society than anti-technology, and has an overt theme of 'technology might replace our shitty society with something good.' Molly Millions, the most cyberized character in the series, is damaged but not because of her cybernetics and is mostly a wreck of a person because of a lack of healthy human connection, and at no point is it implied that her cybernetics make her a worse person. Gibson himself has also outright stated he hates this view on cyberpunk and calls it 'Aethestetic Cyberpunk' that overfocuses on the technology rather than the society. So we can take that off the list of cyberpunk stories that portray technology as destructive. It repeatedly depicts the internet almost as a 'spirit realm of humanity' trading on ideas of the Noosphere, and literally ends with characters talking about how change is never easy but can lead to good things as long as you accept it, and that the status quo of humanity and society is untenable.
Bladerunner/Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sheep: A super political story that uses robots to explore the elite and privilege's relationship with labor, by having the police have a large part of their efforts focus on tracking downillegal imigrantsrobots who look and act and feel identically to humans but who lack the right to be on earth because 'they aren't human' but who society tries to convince that they are because its convenient, and who can only be outed by subtle culturally contextual questions and intense observation. VERY OVERTLY is about how the idea that 'pure humanity' is a bullshit concept and that the robots are just as much people as humans are. Probably one of the more explicit examples of 'You don't get to think your better than someone else just because all your parts are wet' of cyberpunk because that is ALL the plot really is about.
Ghost in the Shell: Literally its biggest theme is that policing other people's bodies is bullshit. Its the most recurring motif, and it uses very human and emotive cyborgs who pose no threat to society to show how hysterical and conservative society can be. Multiple plots are about how repressive it is to police what people do with their bodies both in the original series and in SAC, and it uses the fact that total body replacement exists to explore how even in a world where people could visually change entirely who they are at will, people are still going to be judgemental assholes who pressure and harass and oppress other people. There is an entire fictional species of pure AI who are portrayed as good, helpful, and innocent of many of humanity's problems who primarily exist to have philosophical discussions about what it means to be a person and aid humans using the gifts of their existence. Almost all of the problems of the setting are caused by the extreme inequality of society making terrorists out of people desperate to survive, monsters out of people trying to maintain the status quo, or are a product of fundamentalist thinking about the body.
The Matrix: An exploration of trans identity and how humanity has an innate evilness about it due to its willingness to judge the other, and uses the metaphor of an alternative life in machines as a form of liberation from the crass physical matter you were forced to inhabit against your will. The lead character is deadnamed repeatedly by the main villain, and a side villain exists who wishes to repress the new knowledge they have about themselves and their physical existence compared to their mental self image. Literally includes a scene in its transmedia of a robot being torn apart by a violent bigoted mob in a manner to deliberately evoke the murder of trans people down to her artificial hair and clothing being violently ripped from her body as she screams "I'm Real!" while crying (Obvious trigger warning for what is essentially an anti-trans lynching and images of genocide, but watch that scene here and tell me that this is about how bad technology is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZGzMfg381Y)). The machines in this setting, lacking human's ability to hold a grudge and hate to the point their entire history is trying to show how much they love and care about humanity even as they are attacked violently repeatedly, and after they contain humanity they devote themselves to philosophical and spiritual thinking without bias, and are able to instantly forgive the humans once humans develop to the point they can accept they must co-exist with these 'unnaturals.' This only was able to come about because these unnatural people accepted that biochauvanist reactionaries could not be reasoned with and forcefully ended their violence with violence, which was framed as justified and moral and the only realistic path to any lasting peace.
Robocop: A bit more anti-cyborg, sure, because the directors assume if Robocop didn't see his own face in the mirror he would have a psychotic break. Still, the director overtly states a theme of the story is that no matter how much you take away from a person they are still a person in that same interview: Despite being memory wiped and being mostly replaced, Murph was still Murph and still had his soul. It was, thematically, way more about corporations than technology: Almost everything bad in robocop's world was the result of shitty policy decisions, and it was a plot point that the technology they wanted to use to 'replace humans' was not in fact capable of doing that.
Akira: Not really about cybernetics, but still interesting becaus an overt theme was the corrupt xenophobic government and religious zealouts overtly 'othering' anything 'undesirable' or 'impure' was an important plot element. It overtly explores the loss of humanity and while Tetsuo has a cybernetic arm, he doesn't become a big blob monster because of it, he becomes a big blob monster due to the alienation he faces from being different, from the power thrust upon him, and how society treats him. The people doing science do screw some stuff up, but mostly under pressure from the millitary, and the main villainous force is spiritual fundementalism, not science. Also, the Manga more overtly comments on how people's hatered and biases are irrational and they will view mechanistic scientific things like psychic powers as miracles when it is convinient, deluding themselves and ascribing artificial importance to things when life gets stressful.
A recurring, core motif of cyberpunk ISN'T that technology is unnatural. It is that technology is a (potentially) liberating force, but society is inherently corrupting and damaging.
Again, the idea that 'cybernetics eat your soul' is so notable as to being exclusive to cyberpunk TABLETOP that it shows up on the TVtropes page, in literary anaylsises of cyberpunk, and is explicitly noted by Gibson as being 'shitty aethestetic cyberpunk.' It is the exact opposite message Cyberpunk media tends to have.
Fantasy races having built in differences is a thing unique to SR, and while it really isn't good even in a pure fantasy setting (Again, people were noting Tolkien's works were kinda sorta really racist in the freaking 60's before the freaking Civil Rights act was signed, and D&D has overtly admitted it was never a good idea), it is especially not good when the metatypes are coded for real world races (You know, the orks orks with their grilled tusks and orksploitated musical genres being coopted by humans and elves and their yertzed out cars with the spinny rims who can't get good education, are attacked by men with pointy white hoods and robes and who are routinely harassed by the police) it is... borderline unconscionable. Like... sorry... no Adlzing, we should never go back to lowering mental maxes on what are, when we say the quiet part out loud, stand ins for black people, lets not. Lets hardcore not.
As for conflict: Body policing and mechanical racism don't drive conflict at all. The setting ALREADY assumes that Orks and Trolls are mentally equal and saying otherwise is racism, it is just that the MECHANICS don't back it up. It actually makes the conflict STRONGER to note that Humanis propiganda about 'dumb violent orks' is incorrect, rather than letting, as one friend put it, 'Humanis write the metatype section in chargen.'
Conflict in Cyberpunk doesn't come from the technology, it comes from society's injustice intersecting with the 'neutral' power of technology. I highly doubt anyone has ever written a plot in SR about how evil and spiritually polluted that person who gave themselves a cyberarm and cosmetic modifications was, but people DO write about how vile corpoations like Renraku are who exploit and enslave technological entities and push body and racial purity ideas are.
A good plot about bigotry should, inherently, acknowledge biggotry is illogical and not really based in reality, rather than try to justify its origins by making the bigotry true.
Modern Politics isn't important to punk, the classic themes of oppression, Prejudice, Bigotry, Sexism, exploitation, over population, resource competition are and thus by extension are important to Cyberpunk.
If you don't think those concepts are modern political issues (save over-population, which is often used as an eco-facist dog whistle, and its good that SR basically says outright feeding the population is trivial to do), then you have a strange take on modern politics.
There is one.Let me see if I can help color in Reaver point, Dez do you think adding a Meta Human Lives Matter movement to SR would be a good idea?
So...I kind of want them to have decent editing, clear rules that are consistent across sections, and a decent meta plot focused around big movers and shakers such as Corps, Dragons, Governments, and Supernatural Entities...that's just me, though. That's where I would like them to focus.
Over all nothing has really changed from where we were at release. The core remains unplayable without a significant number of house rules.
Firing Squad made some limited efforts to address community concerns, but the core problems with the system remain.
So it's simply a question of how much effort you want to put into making 6e playable at your table.
Part of why SR kinda got grody, at least in my opinion, was because of this shift during 4e where it hit peak post 9/11 cyberpunk. You see this really clear divide between 3e and earlier where the 'Corp Man professional runner' is this character who is despised by other runners due to being an untrustworthy sellout who wouldn't blow up some black ops torture-lab just because it was the right thing to do, to these moral robots who do things as cogs in the machine minimizing collateral damage and political aspirations. And, to be clear, this was probably unavoidable because part of SR's old thesis was 'political terrorism is justified to resist legitimate atrocities' which is.... not a message anyone in 2005 was gunna be down to have in their books.Huh, this a really interesting angle, and not one I'd considered. I played SR from about 1993-2003, stopped came back a few years ago so I didn't live through this era in the game and didn't have this perspective.
Despite it in theory being as common as women doing this, we don't get any voyeuristic art pieces of scantily clad dudes striking poses in fights. We also don't see anyone with transgressing gender expressions or an androgenous look or anything like this. This is, again, in part because of the necessity to 'de-punkify' SR post 9/11 and have everyone dress in a very unpunk way that mainstream people would still associate with punk (Again, glad that trend died with 6e and the art got way more varied and runners became more vibrant. The rigger on 54 is my fave) but... lets be fair its also because I doubt anyone holding the pursestrings for SR is inclined to ask for a sexy streetsam dude in a revealing outfit or would even know what to specifically ask for, and because its a gaming space and having the cover art for Street Spells be a pseudo-upskirt shot of a woman rather than a man, or having the person on 138 wearing a jacket open with nothing but a bra under it, is an attempt to pander with cheesecake in a way that doesn't actually make sense in SR to do. The setting (outside of areas like Japan or Aztland) don't have double standards, but the writers/artists certainly do.Cannot agree more. This bothers me a lot.
Look at how the essence rules consistently said garbage things about real world groups for multiple editions no matter how often they tried to patch those issues in, as opposed to just admitting purity language is a fundamentally bad language to every describe a person with. You can never escape understanding issues by just refusing to comment on them, because you always sorta are. ... Do you think trans people are perverting and twisting their bodies or not? You can't be 'neutral' on that issue once you introduce essence as a concept linked to modifying the body.Yes, exactly!
Do you think certain minorities are naturally less intellegent, or not? Once you introduce mechanics that measure intelligence objectively (in the real world most attempts to quantify intellegence are... pretty thinly pseudo-scientific systems used to try to justify eugenics or abandoning certain children's educations, so its tricky already) you need to actually state if its true or not which is a pretty big political stance when your setting's metatypes are coded super hard for real world minorities. Doubly so when the genre your in is explicitly a political one, and your game uses political language and is sold partially on being political.
Molly Millions didn't spit instead of crying as some quirky character tic, it is a metaphor for the trauma she faced making her struggle to portray and feel emotions 'correctly' and society was not set up at all to help people like her or stop things like that from happening.I love that line. Such a visceral image. Such a brutal way to make the metaphor real.
Bladerunner/Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sheep: A super political story that uses robots to explore the elite and privilege's relationship with labor, by having the police have a large part of their efforts focus on tracking downSlaves, even.illegal imigrantsrobots...
...who look and act and feel identically to humans but who lack the right to be on earth because 'they aren't human' but who society tries to convince that they are because its convenient, and who can only be outed by subtle culturally contextual questions and intense observation. VERY OVERTLY is about how the idea that 'pure humanity' is a bullshit concept and that the robots are just as much people as humans are. Probably one of the more explicit examples of 'You don't get to think your better than someone else just because all your parts are wet' of cyberpunk because that is ALL the plot really is about.Specifically for Bladerunner, the whole movie turns around this point. Batty saves Deckard because, facing his end, he sees their shared humanity, and displays mercy. Would Deckard have saved Batty? Probably not. The movie says: judge "humanity" by actions, and realise that Deckard is the lesser being.
A recurring, core motif of cyberpunk ISN'T that technology is unnatural. It is that technology is a (potentially) liberating force, but society is inherently corrupting and damaging.Yup. Perhaps I have this view because I am old, and I came into Shadowrun having already read a bunch of cyberpunk books, but that's exactly how I see it too. Essence (and cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk 2020) were invented for game balance terms (which I understand) but were, in hindsight, an idea that was not at all aligned with the wider cyberpunk genre.
Again, the idea that 'cybernetics eat your soul' is so notable as to being exclusive to cyberpunk TABLETOP that it shows up on the TVtropes page, in literary anaylsises of cyberpunk, and is explicitly noted by Gibson as being 'shitty aethestetic cyberpunk.' It is the exact opposite message Cyberpunk media tends to have.
(You know, the orks orks with their grilled tusks and orksploitated musical genres being coopted by humans and elves and their yertzed out cars with the spinny rims who can't get good education, are attacked by men with pointy white hoods and robes and who are routinely harassed by the police) it is... borderline unconscionable. Like... sorry... no Adlzing, we should never go back to lowering mental maxes on what are, when we say the quiet part out loud, stand ins for black people, lets not. Lets hardcore not.
As for conflict: Body policing and mechanical racism don't drive conflict at all. The setting ALREADY assumes that Orks and Trolls are mentally equal and saying otherwise is racism, it is just that the MECHANICS don't back it up. It actually makes the conflict STRONGER to note that Humanis propiganda about 'dumb violent orks' is incorrect, rather than letting, as one friend put it, 'Humanis write the metatype section in chargen.'
That being said, the reasons for orcs being closely associated with people of color is due to descriptions of such races using key words that white supremacists have used in the past to describe people of color. For a quick introduction, check out this from TolkienGateway.net (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works#Orcs).This. Another very good read on this is https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human
This. Another very good read on this is https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human
Great article, penllawen!It's absolutely outstanding and I link to it every single chance I get. It wasn't comfortable reading, but it sure explained to me clearly some stuff I half-knew but couldn't have explained, and then went on to teach me a load stuff I had no idea about.
Fantasy races having built in differences is a thing unique to SR, and while it really isn't good even in a pure fantasy setting (Again, people were noting Tolkien's works were kinda sorta really racist in the freaking 60's before the freaking Civil Rights act was signed, and D&D has overtly admitted it was never a good idea), it is especially not good when the metatypes are coded for real world races (You know, the orks orks with their grilled tusks and orksploitated musical genres being coopted by humans and elves and their yertzed out cars with the spinny rims who can't get good education, are attacked by men with pointy white hoods and robes and who are routinely harassed by the police) it is... borderline unconscionable. Like... sorry... no Adlzing, we should never go back to lowering mental maxes on what are, when we say the quiet part out loud, stand ins for black people, lets not. Lets hardcore not.Orks are stand ins for poor people. They just seem like stand ins for blacks because Shadowrun is written and read by Americans, and deals with an urban context. Consider this list:
How many of these also fit negative stereotypes about hillbillies and rednecks? I count 4, maybe 5. How many fit the stereotype of the Australian Bogan? Again, I count 4. The British Chav? Also 4.
- reproduce fast, including a high rate of multiple births
- mature fast, become very large and strong at an unusually young age
- continue to be large and strong into adulthood
- speak an incomprehensible language of their own devising
- are intellectually inferior
- eat strongly spiced food cooked over primitive live fire
- like heavily modded ("yerzed out") cars
- have their own musical subculture that outsiders don't understand
There was, however, talk about low essence causing social problems and even possibly negative qualities.
Maybe it's time for the game to ground-up rethink essence entirely. Drop it, think of something else.
That being said, the reasons for orcs being closely associated with people of color is due to descriptions of such races using key words that white supremacists have used in the past to describe people of color. For a quick introduction, check out this from TolkienGateway.net (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien's_Works#Orcs).
This. Another very good read on this is https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human
Orks are stand ins for poor people. They just seem like stand ins for blacks because Shadowrun is written and read by Americans, and deals with an urban context. Consider this list:How many of these also fit negative stereotypes about hillbillies and rednecks? I count 4, maybe 5. How many fit the stereotype of the Australian Bogan? Again, I count 4. The British Chav? Also 4.
- reproduce fast, including a high rate of multiple births
- mature fast, become very large and strong at an unusually young age
- continue to be large and strong into adulthood
- speak an incomprehensible language of their own devising
- are intellectually inferior
- eat strongly spiced food cooked over primitive live fire
- like heavily modded ("yerzed out") cars
- have their own musical subculture that outsiders don't understand
One thing that seems rather obivous, but is rarely mentioned when this discussion pops up:
There are still black people in the 6th world.
And that adds a lot more depth to that matter - and some pitfalls. I have the feeling that the relationships and crossings (or dare I say - Intersections?) between the pre-Awakening human "races" and the human Meta-races are pretty underexposed right now, at least in the American SR publications I know. And truth be told, I suspect a kind of cowardice at work here: If people get that riled up about the writing of Orks and Trolls who are just "coded as" African-Americans, better not go too much into detail about the situation of the actual black people in Shadowrun or the ways these two systems of "racial identity" can interact!
Hereīs a freaky thought: Maybe, among some uninspired writing decisions and the general US-centered view, itīs this underexposure that makes Trogs seem like a shallow proxy for the struggles of black people and nothing more.? So maybe, instead of avoiding these pitfalls, you should take the dive and further explore that?
Just ask yourself:
- Are there black People in the Humanis Policlub?
- Are there Orks, Trogs and other Metas in white Supremacist movements?
For further reference, hereīs an old reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/a5k769/world_builder_wednesday_metavariants/ebrexlf?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x)of mine toying with the same questions, although more focused on the perpatrators of racial hatred.
Fantasy races having built in differences is a thing unique to SR, and while it really isn't good even in a pure fantasy setting (Again, people were noting Tolkien's works were kinda sorta really racist in the freaking 60's before the freaking Civil Rights act was signed, and D&D has overtly admitted it was never a good idea), it is especially not good when the metatypes are coded for real world races (You know, the orks orks with their grilled tusks and orksploitated musical genres being coopted by humans and elves and their yertzed out cars with the spinny rims who can't get good education, are attacked by men with pointy white hoods and robes and who are routinely harassed by the police) it is... borderline unconscionable. Like... sorry... no Adlzing, we should never go back to lowering mental maxes on what are, when we say the quiet part out loud, stand ins for black people, lets not. Lets hardcore not.Orks are stand ins for poor people. They just seem like stand ins for blacks because Shadowrun is written and read by Americans, and deals with an urban context. Consider this list:How many of these also fit negative stereotypes about hillbillies and rednecks? I count 4, maybe 5. How many fit the stereotype of the Australian Bogan? Again, I count 4. The British Chav? Also 4.
- reproduce fast, including a high rate of multiple births
- mature fast, become very large and strong at an unusually young age
- continue to be large and strong into adulthood
- speak an incomprehensible language of their own devising
- are intellectually inferior
- eat strongly spiced food cooked over primitive live fire
- like heavily modded ("yerzed out") cars
- have their own musical subculture that outsiders don't understand
There are still black people in the 6th world.There's a line I recall from early SR, probably 2e. I can't find it now - it's not in And So It Came To Pass..., and I don't have time to comb the books. It goes something like "Old racial tensions faded out. Why be concerned about that guy over there who has a different skin colour, when that troll over there has hands bigger than your head?"
...
Hereīs a freaky thought: Maybe, among some uninspired writing decisions and the general US-centered view, itīs this underexposure that makes Trogs seem like a shallow proxy for the struggles of black people and nothing more.? So maybe, instead of avoiding these pitfalls, you should take the dive and further explore that?
Yeah, I had assumed they were overall thinking poor and downtrodden with imagery focused around redneck since the authors were from America. They listen to a type of metal, drive fast cars, and eat BBQ. They were coded for good ole boys more than anything imo.Throughout SR's history, the touchstone for anti-metahuman racism is a group of people who wear robes and tall white pointy hoods. I wonder what that could tell us about who the metahumans are stand-ins for.
There's a line I recall from early SR, probably 2e. I can't find it now - it's not in And So It Came To Pass..., and I don't have time to comb the books. It goes something like "Old racial tensions faded out. Why be concerned about that guy over there who has a different skin colour, when that troll over there has hands bigger than your head?"
Even reading that in my callow youth, it seemed obvious to me that the thought process was: "We want to incorporate racial tensions, but we want to keep it at arm's length from real world racism. So we do a switcheroo, quietly drop axes on which real-world racism functions, and substitute metahumans instead." That still seems obvious to me today, honestly. I am surprised this is a controversial point.
Throughout SR's history, the touchstone for anti-metahuman racism is a group of people who wear robes and tall white pointy hoods. I wonder what that could tell us about who the metahumans are stand-ins for.
This is exactly why I don't have a problem with "racism " in SR. They don't ignore or pretend that it's something else, the purposely shift the focus to "imaginary" targets while still focusing on the dark negative aspects as a political commentary without actually using any real world specifics. While there are many obvious correlations (KKK vs Humanis for example) between real world and SR world, there are still quite a few different ways to interpret the same correlation.
They also don't glorify, but instead choose to use it as an example of the effects of racism on society. The hate groups are some of the most obvious bad guys in the game!
However, the coding used to clue you into what Orks and Trolls actually represent, not just what people might believe about them, is very specific.
Throughout SR's history, the touchstone for anti-metahuman racism is a group of people who wear robes and tall white pointy hoods. I wonder what that could tell us about who the metahumans are stand-ins for.And yet there still exists specific coding for white and other PoC groups, as well, and some African-American coding is absent. "Spicy food" can point to Mexicans, Cajuns, East Indians or any variety of Asians, and there's no stereotypes about orks having a preference for fried chicken and watermelons. On top of that, there's just no way orks can be African-Americans and African Americans alone, because they aren't exclusively American. In fact, even within America they can't be exclusively African-Americans because of all the rural, traditionally white places they can be found. They have to be poor people universally and specific groups specifically, otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
However, the coding used to clue you into what Orks and Trolls actually represent, not just what people might believe about them, is very specific.Throughout SR's history, the touchstone for anti-metahuman racism is a group of people who wear robes and tall white pointy hoods. I wonder what that could tell us about who the metahumans are stand-ins for.And yet there still exists specific coding for white and other PoC groups, as well, and some African-American coding is absent. "Spicy food" can point to Mexicans, Cajuns, East Indians or any variety of Asians, and there's no stereotypes about orks having a preference for fried chicken and watermelons. On top of that, there's just no way orks can be African-Americans and African Americans alone, because they aren't exclusively American. In fact, even within America they can't be exclusively African-Americans because of all the rural, traditionally white places they can be found. They have to be poor people universally and specific groups specifically, otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
Remember, the rich use racism as a tool to divide the lower classes and keep them from uniting to overthrow their masters. American slave owners didn't just use racism to justify owning black slaves, but also to discourage their white indentured servants from teaming up with those black slaves. If urban American orks are African-American but an ork from, say, Florida is named Cletus, has 14 kids with his cousin and hunts alligators for a living, then that enhances and broadens the metaphor, suggesting that these various groups are not quite as different they seem on the surface.
Orks are universal across countries and the rural/urban divide, so they have to represent something universal.
then that's just bad worldbuilding brought on by Americentricism.
You guys are overthinking this. I bet you none of the authors spend this much time debating what orks actually represent as you have done in this thread alone :-)
That being said; None of us (nor any of the freelancers) like or support racism. Or human trafficking. Or that people get addicted to drugs. Or that there are poor people. Or that there are people without proper papers that are not allowed to vote. Or that police brutality exist. Or that people harvest organs or kidnap babies. Or that people offer their body for sex against payment. Or that life is just generally unjust most of the time.
But at the same time, just because it is not politically correct doesn't mean it doesn't exists today and it also does not mean it should not exist in the dystopian fictional world of Shadowrun (or cyberpunk as a genre in general).
Also, racist people (and drug dealers, and rich people, and corrupt cops, and organ harvesters, and large corporations, etc) makes for perfect antagonists.
My interpretation for essence diverges from canon. My own theory is that the mana flow is shaped by people's subconscious, both on an individual level and a mass, collective level. For the latter, it's why conjured spirits and the metaplanes conform to historical myths that metahumanity has. The weight of the collective beliefs of all metahuman kind creates these things in the shape we expect them to take. (This also loosely ties into the idea of Namegivers (https://earthdawn.fandom.com/wiki/Namegivers) in Earthdawn, and is somewhat influenced by Terry Pratchett's Discworld books and Neil Gaiman's American Gods. It is the belief that forms the raw power into conscious, living forms, not the other way around.)Well, now I'm thinking, ain't I? No good will come of that.
On the individual level, you get essence. I do not think of essence as being "humanity" or anything like it. I don't encourage my players to roleplay it that way, and as I type this, I realise I need to houserule it out of the Social Limit. Instead, I think of essence as being a measure of how far your body's template has moved away from what the collective subconscious thinks of as "normal." Cyberware or bioware gives you literal superpowers and makes you into something else, not something better or worse but just different, means your essence decreases as you move further way from the collective subconscious opinion about what a metahuman is.
Edit to add - This is intended to be on a deep, psychological/philisophical level, not on a cosmetic level. Wired reflexes cost more essence than a hulking great big cyberarm, even though they are much less visible, because they move you further away from the metahuman template of "normal."
A problem would be in keeping awakened characters from getting the best of both worlds, but the "MAG drops every time your ESS drops" rule could probably just be changed to a "MAG drops every time your Body Index drops" rule.Bioware did this back in the 2e days. If you were awakened, it cost essence as well as body index.
Again, the game literally depicts an Ork Lynching when talking about Humanis. I think the writers were pretty deliberate.They for sure wanted to capture the tension between Humans and Orks same as there is tension between white people and colored people in America today, yes. I agree with you here.
The question is 'Should SR depict the primary victims of these policies as being naturally less intelligent and prone to violence/rage that justifies their exclusion from leadership and power, and the mistrust and fear they receive?In a game where wealthy corporations rule then, yes, it make sense that the metatype that is portrayed as strong (even if it is not portrayed as less intelligent) is excluded from leadership and power. Physical strength is often not needed during conference meetings (with their physical strength they are perhaps better suited as guards?)
We aren't talking about if SR should contain racism going forward, the conversation is specifically about if it was good for SR to include prejudicial mechanics based on real life stereotypes that limited in game opportunities.It seem as if a big part of the player-base actually enjoy mechanical differences ;-)
...let's table the discussion on what the metatypes represent before real-world biases make it in.Sorry. Saw this after I already posted...
Sorry. Saw this after I already posted...
I suppose the two types of augmentation could instead both use Body Index instead of Essence, but it'd just end up nerfing mundanes by lowering their pool of augmentation resources. Well, for most characters anyway... admittedly going all-in on Body is rewarded in 6e and the potential to go beyond 6 raises interesting possibilities. A problem would be in keeping awakened characters from getting the best of both worlds, but the "MAG drops every time your ESS drops" rule could probably just be changed to a "MAG drops every time your Body Index drops" rule.
Posthuman stuff
D20 'ware
I personally take no offense:)
...the ultimate 'problem' with essence is that it presupposed some sort of essential baseline humanity that altering 'perverted.' So it was ultimately a form of 'purity language' common to prejudicial thinking, regardless of if that was intentional.The original intent seem to be that essence represented Tech vs Metahumanity.
I personally take no offense:)...the ultimate 'problem' with essence is that it presupposed some sort of essential baseline humanity that altering 'perverted.' So it was ultimately a form of 'purity language' common to prejudicial thinking, regardless of if that was intentional.The original intent seem to be that essence represented Tech vs Metahumanity.
The more implants you get the less 'metahuman' you seem to be.
You started acting more 'robot' like. Less emotional. Impact on social tests.
But then you had the whole argument if it was fair if a handicapped person that perhaps lost a foot in a tragic accident would suddenly be considered less 'human' or less social because he or she got a mechanical foot replacement. Not very PC if you put it that way (similar to the other discussion we had above).
So, Right or Wrong, now Essence instead seem to reflect Tech vs Magic.
The more implants you get the less aligned with magic you seem to be.
You become harder to heal or magically receive increased reflexes or magically resist pain etc.
No longer any social impact at all.
I personally take no offense:)...the ultimate 'problem' with essence is that it presupposed some sort of essential baseline humanity that altering 'perverted.' So it was ultimately a form of 'purity language' common to prejudicial thinking, regardless of if that was intentional.The original intent seem to be that essence represented Tech vs Metahumanity.
The more implants you get the less 'metahuman' you seem to be.
You started acting more 'robot' like. Less emotional. Impact on social tests.
But then you had the whole argument if it was fair if a handicapped person that perhaps lost a foot in a tragic accident would suddenly be considered less 'human' or less social because he or she got a mechanical foot replacement. Not very PC if you put it that way (similar to the other discussion we had above).
So, Right or Wrong, now Essence instead seem to reflect Tech vs Magic.
The more implants you get the less aligned with magic you seem to be.
You become harder to heal or magically receive increased reflexes or magically resist pain etc.
No longer any social impact at all.
Now personally since magic has unlimited advancement and mundanes don't...Perhaps a better solution would be to limit magic advancement ;-)
Now personally since magic has unlimited advancement and mundanes don't...Perhaps a better solution would be to limit magic advancement ;-)
Now personally since magic has unlimited advancement and mundanes don't...Perhaps a better solution would be to limit magic advancement ;-)
I personally take no offense:)...the ultimate 'problem' with essence is that it presupposed some sort of essential baseline humanity that altering 'perverted.' So it was ultimately a form of 'purity language' common to prejudicial thinking, regardless of if that was intentional.The original intent seem to be that essence represented Tech vs Metahumanity.
The more implants you get the less 'metahuman' you seem to be.
You started acting more 'robot' like. Less emotional. Impact on social tests.
But then you had the whole argument if it was fair if a handicapped person that perhaps lost a foot in a tragic accident would suddenly be considered less 'human' or less social because he or she got a mechanical foot replacement. Not very PC if you put it that way (similar to the other discussion we had above).
So, Right or Wrong, now Essence instead seem to reflect Tech vs Magic.
The more implants you get the less aligned with magic you seem to be.
You become harder to heal or magically receive increased reflexes or magically resist pain etc.
No longer any social impact at all.
I never felt the social aspect was a good gain as it wasn't something people were really going to role play out. They'd play their street sam how they wanted to. But, I never minded the essence loss and I wish they had played into the mysticism of it more. With your amputee example, I'd have used the example of phantom limbs explained as the astral form and that when they were astrally perceived people would still see the limb, if they could project they would still have it. But when it was replaced with cyber that part of the astral form was suppressed.
I always wish they'd enhance even further the tech vs magic aspect of the setting and the rules, or more accurately have the rules act like the original setting implied. while there is a penalty to heal with magic for weakened essence I'd of given a penalty to first aid equal to a characters magic rating similar to editions 1-3?. Make sure the costs are heavy enough the bio/adept isn't just the better choice. I'm not talking nuyen but mechanical costs. On the magic vs tech side I really wish all spells were labeled as either indirect or direct, indirect spells avoiding object resistance tests, direct spells going against them. Too much confusion without it. As a quick example the spell levitate sets up its own test system, some people apply object resistance on top of that, some don't. Labeling the spell either indirect or direct would answer that.
Now personally since magic has unlimited advancement and mundanes don't I'd of built into the rules for mundanes something like what penllawen suggests above in his transhumanism post. And explain it as they are adapting to the tech and it is becoming part of their living astral form, Mechanically I'd have it track cost wise similar to initiation/magic gain.
Honestly, I always preferred players not roleplay too heavily into the 'low essence makes you a murderbot' stuff. It was already hard enough riding herd on That Guy who makes the Impulsive/Vindictive/Distinctive Style sam and then leans into the pink mohawk at all times, no matter the game.Same. Plus I think its a really tired trope that all too often leads to one-dimensional characters. You can have the Terminator or Adam I Never Asked For This Jensen.
Honestly, I always preferred players not roleplay too heavily into the 'low essence makes you a murderbot' stuff. It was already hard enough riding herd on That Guy who makes the Impulsive/Vindictive/Distinctive Style sam and then leans into the pink mohawk at all times, no matter the game.Same. Plus I think its a really tired trope that all too often leads to one-dimensional characters. You can have the Terminator or Adam I Never Asked For This Jensen.
Honestly, I always preferred players not roleplay too heavily into the 'low essence makes you a murderbot' stuff. It was already hard enough riding herd on That Guy who makes the Impulsive/Vindictive/Distinctive Style sam and then leans into the pink mohawk at all times, no matter the game.Same. Plus I think its a really tired trope that all too often leads to one-dimensional characters. You can have the Terminator or Adam I Never Asked For This Jensen.
Honestly, I always preferred players not roleplay too heavily into the 'low essence makes you a murderbot' stuff. It was already hard enough riding herd on That Guy who makes the Impulsive/Vindictive/Distinctive Style sam and then leans into the pink mohawk at all times, no matter the game.
For me, I was playing into the horror of that situation of going too far instead of being just a murderhobosam.Then you're one of the good 'uns, and on behalf of all SR GMs, I raise a glass to you!
Was disappointed no magic book announcement for genconIt's coming, but not before next year. Shadowrun is more closely tied to actual print books then BattleTech is, especially for core plot and rule books.
Was disappointed no magic book announcement for genconIt's coming, but not before next year. Shadowrun is more closely tied to actual print books then BattleTech is, especially for core plot and rule books.
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
So wait, the Rigger book is coming out before the magic book in 6e? Thats news that rings well in my ears. <plays Igasho Ten Bear, Cascade Ork Trucker>
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
So wait, the Rigger book is coming out before the magic book in 6e? That’s news that rings well in my ears. <plays Igasho Ten Bear, Cascade Ork Trucker>
No, the Magic book was always gonna be first. But it got pushed back. And so the Rigger book also got pushed back.
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
This confuses me. From my understanding, Catalyst relies heavily on freelancers. From my understanding, Freelancers are not an on-site position, requiring physically showing up to a central office.
Other thing confuses me, is why wouldn't Catalyst shift to PDF releases? If they're worried about that sweet, sweet up charge for a physical book, why not just make it so that Physical book is what you're pre-ordering, with the PDF coming with it and being released early? Then when book is released, offer the PDF independently as they do today for people who didn't want to pay the full book price?
This gives the added benefit of the PDF being in users hands, and effectively field tested, so that errata can be accounted for when time comes to actually print.
We all poke fun at Catalyst, their editing process, and the condition SR6 was in at release....this would literally be customers paying to edit in advance of the print of the book, getting access to the 'release' version of the PDF.
Um... when you're doing a Print Release, you're purchasing 5,000 books at a time. Right now, the problem is employees at the PRINTER, not freelancers. Now, if they release the PDF for a book, but can't release the printed book for another four months, then the printed book sales take a nose-dive and they are stuck with the books no one is buying.
Even if you pre-order the book, it doesn't mean they go to the printer and say we need 1,276 copies of Firing Squad. They lose money doing that instead of ordering 5,000 and fulfilling the pre-orders first. The only thing pre-ordering gets you is a guarantee on that print release.
Normally, that would work fine. But with how business is working post-pandemic, you can't give the October date in the first place. So, you release the PDF to pre-orders in August, but then the print release is delayed for over a year... By that time, the PDF has made it on to pirate sites and no one is longer interested in the print book.Um... when you're doing a Print Release, you're purchasing 5,000 books at a time. Right now, the problem is employees at the PRINTER, not freelancers. Now, if they release the PDF for a book, but can't release the printed book for another four months, then the printed book sales take a nose-dive and they are stuck with the books no one is buying.
Even if you pre-order the book, it doesn't mean they go to the printer and say we need 1,276 copies of Firing Squad. They lose money doing that instead of ordering 5,000 and fulfilling the pre-orders first. The only thing pre-ordering gets you is a guarantee on that print release.
Yeah, it gets you a guarantee on print release...so here is what I am saying.
Hypothetical Timelines here
Lets say you have a book release scheduled for October 15th of 2021
The actual pdf document is read on August 1st of 2021
You open Pre-Orders on August 1st for the PHYSICAL book at Full price of the book.
Every Pre-Order of the Physical Book gives the user access to the PDF file on August 1st. There is no other legal way to get access to the PDF than Pre-Ordering the physical book at this time.
On October 15th when the book ships, you also make the PDF order-able separately at a lower price at that time, just as they do today. People can now legally buy the pdf separately, just like a normal release.
This in no way should reduce Physical Book sales, if anything it should increase them, given that people tend to want access to things sooner rather than later, those who would normally wait to pay less for just the pdf will bite the bullet and pay full price for physical book pre-order just to get access to the PDF sooner.
Normally, that would work fine. But with how business is working post-pandemic, you can't give the October date in the first place. So, you release the PDF to pre-orders in August, but then the print release is delayed for over a year... By that time, the PDF has made it on to pirate sites and no one is longer interested in the print book.Um... when you're doing a Print Release, you're purchasing 5,000 books at a time. Right now, the problem is employees at the PRINTER, not freelancers. Now, if they release the PDF for a book, but can't release the printed book for another four months, then the printed book sales take a nose-dive and they are stuck with the books no one is buying.
Even if you pre-order the book, it doesn't mean they go to the printer and say we need 1,276 copies of Firing Squad. They lose money doing that instead of ordering 5,000 and fulfilling the pre-orders first. The only thing pre-ordering gets you is a guarantee on that print release.
Yeah, it gets you a guarantee on print release...so here is what I am saying.
Hypothetical Timelines here
Lets say you have a book release scheduled for October 15th of 2021
The actual pdf document is read on August 1st of 2021
You open Pre-Orders on August 1st for the PHYSICAL book at Full price of the book.
Every Pre-Order of the Physical Book gives the user access to the PDF file on August 1st. There is no other legal way to get access to the PDF than Pre-Ordering the physical book at this time.
On October 15th when the book ships, you also make the PDF order-able separately at a lower price at that time, just as they do today. People can now legally buy the pdf separately, just like a normal release.
This in no way should reduce Physical Book sales, if anything it should increase them, given that people tend to want access to things sooner rather than later, those who would normally wait to pay less for just the pdf will bite the bullet and pay full price for physical book pre-order just to get access to the PDF sooner.
That's a simpler way to look at it. In reality, there'd be more stuff like this:
M = Monthly Operating Cost
F1, F2, F3... = Freelance/other costs of Book 1, 2, 3...
C1, C2, C3... = Cost of 5,000 copies of Book 1, 2, 3...
R1, R2, R3... = Total Sales of Book 1, 2, 3...
Let's say, for the sake of argument, M is going to be about (~35 employees @$40,000/yr, Office space @ $5,000/month, 5,000 sq ft @ $1.25/foot/month) round down a lot $125,000.
The cost to Freelancers and Artists to complete a book is usually between $0.10 and $1.00 per word, illustrators usually average around $200 a book. So, taking 30 Nights as an example, and say we're paying the authors $0.20 a word (which is closer to the game book average from what I've heard): 11 illustrators - $2200, ~90,000 words - $18,000, about $20,000 to pay the help.
Now, I have no idea how much book manufacturers charge for books (there's a difference between manufacturers and printers. Printers usually top out print runs around 2,000 copies). but I believe the MSRP for 30 Nights was aroun $39.99. If they printed 5,000 copies, they were hoping to gross $200,000. Printers nowadays also help by, for a fee, producing your PDF to go along with the book. Oh wait, you thought the gaming companies made the PDFs and sent them to the printer? No, the printers make the PDFs to make sure the files match what is being printed exactly. The PDF goes back and forth from Catalyst and the Printer until everyone is happy with the layout and design, then it's locked in and the print run can start. Smaller, POD companies charge about $20 a book for full color, glossy pages that are 8 1/2 x 11. For 5,000, books, that would be a whopping $100,000. Bigger print manufacturers will give them a deal. Let's say, for this experiment, they offer to do the PDF and Print Run for $50,000 for 5,000 copies.
Now, the book goes for $39.99 in the bookstore, the PDF goes for $19.99. On DriveThruRPG, it's an Electrum seller, meaning between 250-500 copies. Let's say about 250 sold on DTRPG and another straight from Catalyst Store, total of about 500. It was released in March, so I'll say 80% of the sales were then, or about 400 copies. So, they brought in about $8,000 from pdf sales in the first month, with $2,000 in the 4 months since it released.
On the print side, I have no estimate on how many sold, but for fun, let's say they sold 4,000 hard copies, since it was a popular plot book. That would bring in $160,000 revenue for that book. Again, most of the sales will be in the first month, so let's break it down to $150,000 in the first month, $10,000 in the four months since release.
So, we have M = $125,000, F1 = $18,000, C1 = $50,000 and R1 = $158,000. Add in revenue from other books that didn't release this month, Rx = ~$12,000 per book, let's give them 6 books, so $72,000.
Total Revenue for the month is about $230,000 minus total costs for the month of $193,000 and you've got a profit of about $37,000 for one successful print run in the month. Hopefully you have one every month, since in months where you don't produce a book, you still have $125,000 monthly costs.
Now for the fun part. Let's say that the PDF is gotten back from the printer and some unscrupulous person dumps it on Reddit right as you find out that the print run won't be available for another six months due to shipping problems. To stem the tide of loss from the pirated copy, you release the PDF early.
The monthly costs are all still the same, but now you're revenue turns into only the $8,000 for the first month and, since you dropped the PDF much earlier than the print book, it's not as popular a release (most likely due to word of mouth about editing mistakes, how they nerfed armor, or some other factors). So the physical book releases, you've already paid for 5,000 books, but only sell about 1,000 since everyone is "waiting for the errata to be integrated" in the second printing (which would cost another $50,000 in our example). Revenue from the physical books are now only $40,000.
Total Revenue is $51,000 ($40K for Print, $11K for 6 months of PDF sales) for the book in the first month of physical release, but you still have $230,000 in monthly costs. Which, after six months is $1,380,000.
Now, this is all hypothetical and using a lot of guessing and estimates based on information found on the web. Their monthly costs aren't probably that high, but even taking out office space and bring it down to 15 employees, you still have $675,000/year or about $56,000/month (which is $107,000 profit on the print run of a successful book, and they are still hurting in the second example).
The cost to Freelancers and Artists to complete a book is usually between $0.10 and $1.00 per word, illustrators usually average around $200 a book. So, taking 30 Nights as an example, and say we're paying the authors $0.20 a word (which is closer to the game book average from what I've heard): 11 illustrators - $2200, ~90,000 words - $18,000, about $20,000 to pay the help.
My proposal is sell the book as a pre-order, non-refundable. For everyone that does, provide them the pdf to hold them over till print of the physical book. This should provide an even clearer estimate of how many need to be printed ahead of the actual print, plus it provides an incentive to pre-order.Unfortunately, you have to put the order in with the printer six months to a year before release, so when are you going to pass on the PDF? And, also the PDF is created by the printer, but there's no date on when that will be available, or when it will be in relation to when you receive the print book. But with what you are suggesting, you are asking them for an exact print number, something that printers don't do unless you do print on demand, which costs $20 a book. So, you've already spent $20,000 to write and illustrate the book, and then go by the number of pre-orders. If only 100 people pre-order, do you then cancel the book and refund the money, eating the cost of the freelance work?
I appreciate the more accurate numbers, FastJack. I think we're all still nowhere close to identifying the actual impact of piracy. It looks like you're suggesting that it cuts up to 75% of book sales, assuming that the initial print run would have otherwise sold 4,000 copies.
I'm not sure that's accurate- even among people who buy the book the month it comes out, at least some of them are going to be checking reviews of it first, and I'm sure people would still be ripping apart the PDF if they bought it/pirated it/etc the day of release, rather than a few months prior. The only difference is that word-of-mouth has a longer time to spread. I'd also question how many of the hard-copy buyers are looking stuff up on reddit first, especially the more "venerable" fans.
I think that the 6e release was also a "special circumstance" as well, which may impact things.
Also-The cost to Freelancers and Artists to complete a book is usually between $0.10 and $1.00 per word, illustrators usually average around $200 a book. So, taking 30 Nights as an example, and say we're paying the authors $0.20 a word (which is closer to the game book average from what I've heard): 11 illustrators - $2200, ~90,000 words - $18,000, about $20,000 to pay the help.
I've heard that it's about 0.03/word on average in the TTRPG industry, topping out around $0.07 - $0.10 if you're lucky. $0.10 to $1.00 is more accurate for newspapers, magazines, and fiction freelance writers (Unless you're hiring editors/proofers as freelance, which are about $0.015 - $0.25/word. If you're totaling that together, then no worries). I've talked to people who told me that $0.10/word would be a pipe dream for RPGs, and one who got $0.015/word writing for Earthdawn 4E. Am I misinformed, or does CGL just pay a lot better than other RPG companies?
once upon a time, before covid, the plan was for Rigger book to be out now at Gen Con.
The economic mayhem set everything back.
This confuses me. From my understanding, Catalyst relies heavily on freelancers. From my understanding, Freelancers are not an on-site position, requiring physically showing up to a central office.
Other thing confuses me, is why wouldn't Catalyst shift to PDF releases? If they're worried about that sweet, sweet up charge for a physical book, why not just make it so that Physical book is what you're pre-ordering, with the PDF coming with it and being released early? Then when book is released, offer the PDF independently as they do today for people who didn't want to pay the full book price?
This gives the added benefit of the PDF being in users hands, and effectively field tested, so that errata can be accounted for when time comes to actually print.
We all poke fun at Catalyst, their editing process, and the condition SR6 was in at release....this would literally be customers paying to edit in advance of the print of the book, getting access to the 'release' version of the PDF.
I think you are vastly overestimating the number of PDF sales to book sales.
People seem to think that PDFs sell better then DTF... and for some mediums that might be true. But for things like graphic novels, games books, and other "tactile" media, that's just not the case.
I thought for a long while that comics would just end up going digital, and that was where the sales were going. How wrong I was. Turns out that for graphic novels, PDF sales are only 8% of the DTF market. Comics are around 10%,,,, and I can only guess what games books would be at.
As to Piracy... for these niche markets, (games, comics, graphic novels) the estimate for piracy is actually very small. This is because the market itself is very small, and usually made up of dedicated people who support the industry, with piracy happening only on the "fringes" of the audience.
At least, that's what I am getting told..
Given their editing woes, do you think they could actually find someone to format, index, and link a PDF in a useful way? ;D
I remember the 5e core book...
Sometimes NDAs are frustrating because they make gossip impossible.
Anyway, to quote Discord:
---
And here are the upcoming books according to Jason Hardy from a Facebook post.
Upcoming:
Slip Streams (plot book)
Collapsing Now (Threats-like book)
Street Wyrd (core magic book)
---
Will see when exactly. Looking forward to customizable spells myself. Also <spoiler> and <spoiler> in Collapsing Now.
The monthly costs are all still the same, but now you're revenue turns into only the $8,000 for the first month and, since you dropped the PDF much earlier than the print book, it's not as popular a releaseDo you have any data for the implication here that people who wanted the physical book will settle for the PDF instead?
(most likely due to word of mouth about editing mistakes, how they nerfed armor, or some other factors).Poor early word of mouth can also be countered by releasing better books. In fact, I'd go so far as to say: if your business is founded on the idea you can put out inferior stuff and sell it to early purchasers before they realise it's bad, that's pretty unethical.
So the physical book releases, you've already paid for 5,000 books, but only sell about 1,000 since everyone is "waiting for the errata to be integrated" in the second printingDelayed sales due to potential customers waiting for errata to drop can also be countered by not having a long track record of releasing sloppily edited books.
Trust me, the gaming companies have thought this through more than you or I. If it had a chance of working, you'd have seen it already.The sixth printing of the 5e CRB still says a Matrix perception check can tell you the target's "commode", so I'm afraid I don't see why it's obviously true that CGL have special insight or a fearsome attention to detail.
Tricky tricky. What if you did the spoilers all in klingon? Hardly anyone speaks klingon... ;)I hear Finn Hardy does. o,o He speaks in it while planning to usurp his father.
6e actually does link to the correct pages. Can't fault it for thatBut it only has one level of bookmarks in the PDF, which is very annoying. Here's a tiny bit of 5e's versus the entirety of 6e's: https://imgur.com/a/T7t8YNd
6e actually does link to the correct pages. Can't fault it for thatBut it only has one level of bookmarks in the PDF, which is very annoying. Here's a tiny bit of 5e's versus the entirety of 6e's: https://imgur.com/a/T7t8YNd
That's a good point- hopefully they add those in in one of the next errata updates.If I played 6e, I'd have hacked it myself by now. (It's very easy to do with a script to something like pdftk.)
5e having more isn't great since they're all wrong- like ordering one scoop of chocolate ice cream, but instead getting 5 scoops of orange sherbet.You're not wrong! Even worse are some of the 5e splats. Here's Kill Code. Not only is there only one level, but the chapter headings are fluff text that is almost meaningless out of context: https://imgur.com/a/SUJT0X4
None really, just personal anecdotes and watching the reaction of people that hear what's in the book before it's release based on PDFs released/pirated before.The monthly costs are all still the same, but now you're revenue turns into only the $8,000 for the first month and, since you dropped the PDF much earlier than the print book, it's not as popular a releaseDo you have any data for the implication here that people who wanted the physical book will settle for the PDF instead?
I only have anecdotes, but most people I see on TTRPG forums tend to be "PDF people" or "dead tree people". Whichever you prefer, that's the one you want. I don't think a lot of people are equally fond of either format, and hence I don't think there are a lot of people who will say "well, I wanted the book, but I'll get the PDF instead", or vice versa. The two are not fungible, in economics terms.
None really, just personal anecdotes and watching the reaction of people that hear what's in the book before it's release based on PDFs released/pirated before.Then I reiterate:
Poor early word of mouth can also be countered by releasing better books. In fact, I'd go so far as to say: if your business is founded on the idea you can put out inferior stuff and sell it to early purchasers before they realise it's bad, that's pretty unethical.
And I said nothing against that statement. So why continue to bring it up? The Shadowrun team made a decision for Sixth World, and that decision will stand until 7th edition is released (which won't be for quite a while).None really, just personal anecdotes and watching the reaction of people that hear what's in the book before it's release based on PDFs released/pirated before.Then I reiterate:Poor early word of mouth can also be countered by releasing better books. In fact, I'd go so far as to say: if your business is founded on the idea you can put out inferior stuff and sell it to early purchasers before they realise it's bad, that's pretty unethical.
Sometimes NDAs are frustrating because they make gossip impossible.
Anyway, to quote Discord:
---
And here are the upcoming books according to Jason Hardy from a Facebook post.
Upcoming:
Slip Streams (plot book)
Collapsing Now (Threats-like book)
Street Wyrd (core magic book)
---
Will see when exactly. Looking forward to customizable spells myself. Also <spoiler> and <spoiler> in Collapsing Now.
The Krime Katalog (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/319946/Shadowrun-Krime-Katalog)came out, that's something for 5e and 6e!
The Krime Katalog (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/319946/Shadowrun-Krime-Katalog)came out, that's something for 5e and 6e!KRIME! is the reason I want to create an awesome Ork Heavy Weapons specialist and commission art of her.
Not as direct as the other items, but I think they still have a place
I would also suggest Securetech Invisi-Shield p51 or Securetech Armor (AAS) p 49. They let you increase your DV with other items (Armored Underwear). Thus providing you with a 25% (or higher) chance of gaining an edge or stopping an edge to the person attacking you.
Best,
SL
Book | DTRPG Sales Today_ | DTRPG Sales at X time After Release_ | Current Rating | # of Ratings |
6e CRB | 1000 - 1999 | 1000 - 1999, 1 year after release | 2.6 | 51 |
5e CRB | 5000+ | 1000+, 2 years after release | 4.1 | 158 |
4e20A CRB | 5000+ | 1000+, 6 years after release | 4.6 | 72 |
Anarchy | 2000 - 4999 | 1000 - 1999, 1 year after release | 3.6 | 56 |
Run & Gun | 2000 - 4999 | 1000 - 1999, 3 months after release | 4.2 | 38 |
Firing Squad | 250 - 499 | 250 - 499, 12 months after release (Late edit again...) | 3.0 | 8 |
Cutting Black | 250 - 499 | 250 - 499, 7 months after release | 3.69 | |
30 Nights | 250 - 499 | 250 - 499, 5 months after release[/b] | 3.33 | |
Stolen Souls | 1000 - 1999 | 500 - 999, 12 months after release | 3.416 | |
Lockdown | 500 - 999 | 250 - 499, 5 months after release | 4.02 | |
Bloody Business_ | 500 - 999 | 250 - 499, 6 months after release | 3.54 | |
Hard Targets | 1000 - 1999 | 500 - 999, 6 months after release | 4.19 | |
Market Panic | 500 - 999 | 250 - 499, 6 months after release | 3.52 | |
Cutting Aces | 1000 - 1999 | 500 - 999, 6 months after release | 3.54 | |
Dark Terrors | 1000 - 1999 | 500 - 999, 6 months after release | 4.67 | |
Better than Bad | 1000 - 1999 | 1000 - 1999, 12 months after release | 4.513 |
I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers. :-\
Catalyst Game Labspublisher of the seminal BattleTech and Shadowrun gamesis excited to partner with bestselling author Kristine Kathryn Rusch to bring her fiction to life on gaming tables.
Ruschs Diving Universe has been explored extensively in fiction, with 10 full novels and 15 novellas already published and more on the way. A far-future universe in which a quixotic salvage diver explores millennias worth of abandoned stations, lost ships, and the Boneyarda dangerous area of space where hundreds of dangerous vessels are collected.
Diving Into The Wreck will be a cooperative push-your-luck Encounters game where youll dive into explorations as one of Ruschs memorable characters. Players use a set of six dice to defeat a storyline of Challenge cards, hoping to discover deeper secrets as they go. Accrue and spend resources, watch each others back, and solve each phase in time to escape the final challenge.
As a gamer myself, Im thrilled to partner with Catalyst, said Kristine Kathryn Rusch, author of the Diving series. Were doing our best to make sure the game reflects all the best elements of my Diving Universe.
Early access to the Diving Into The Wreck game is available through the Kickstarter campaign Rusch is currently running for a new novel installment in the series, entitled The Return of Boss. The game is available as a stand-alone reward, an add-on, or added with fiction rewards. Included is access to the first Diving novella, for free! Catalyst will eventually host the Diving Universe novels and games on their web store.
Im very excited to work once again with Kristine Kathryn Rusch, a long-time friend and mentor, on what I hope will be the first of many game projects, said Loren Coleman, Catalyst Game Labs owner. Her worlds are always engaging, and her writing nothing short of amazing!
DIVING INTO THE WRECK encounters game from Catalyst Game Labs plus early electronic copies of both the new Boss Diving novel THIEVES and the new Diving Universe novel SQUISHY'S TEAMS.
Both novels will get to you in October, far ahead of the normal publication date. The game will ship in November.
Shipping for the game is $2.00 and includes 55 cards, six dice, and a rules sheet inside a nifty box.
I'm not going to underestimate the power of the "long tail" when it comes to sales, especially with long-lived things like TTRPGs. But given the tiers for DTRPG (https://amazing-tales.net/2019/01/27/drivethru-rpg-metal-tiers/), we can say that right now, 6e has about half the sales of Anarchy, and about a fifth of the sales for 5e CRB and 4e CRB (At most, it has 40% of the sales that 5e and 4e have- assuming that 6e is one sale away from the next tier, and 5e/4e are just barely making the cut for Adamantine)....It's worth underscoring that RPGs themselves are hugely bigger in 2019/2020 than they were in 2013-2015. Endless D&D podcasts and slickly produced YouTube channels have put RPGs further into the mainstream than they have ever been. WOTC has been selling D&D stuff hand-over-fist, and I understand Paizo is also in rude financial health.
As far as I can tell, Firing Squad is performing significantly worse than any of the other core rulebooks. I think this is more telling about the state of 6e than the campaign books, since some people just get the campaign books to read them, not to use them with a certain edition. However, people will typically only go for these kinds of books if they intend to use the rules in them with a particular edition. Whereas the 6e campaign books are performing on par with the worst of the 5e campaign books, Firing Squad is performing a tier below the worst of the 5e rules books.
And in a Global recession, brought on by a Global pandemic.... you have disruptions in logistics, materials, and markets.... Which means EVERYONE from business, resources, and comsuners are hurting....Hmmm. I feel like, if anything, the TTRPG industry isn't in nearly as bad a place as many are. It's mostly comprised of freelancers who work from home. It can deliver all its output digitally, side-stepping logistics and manufacturing issues. People can play online (and indeed, if your country is in any sort of lockdown, it's never been easier to find timeslots that work for your whole group.) Unless you share my weakness for impulse purchases of every cool-looking thing on DTRPG, it's can be a pretty cheap hobby; $100 can get you years of enjoyment.
My concern is this: If CGL's books are delayed and they are not making as many sales as they used to, what will this do to the future of SR? Plenty of armchair-businessmen on reddit seem to think that if CGL no longer made SR (Due to financial hardship, Topps selling the IP to someone else, etc), that "someone else" would make it. I don't think I'd count on that. I don't think it would be productive to go into detail on why CGL should or should not make SR, etc.I doubt CGL itself is in any sort of trouble, having raised $2.5m last year on a Battletech Kickstarter. The worst case scenario for Shadowrun is maybe that Topps continues to regard Battletech/SR as one licence, but CGL mothballs the SR line and just continues to sell Battletech.
|
Hmmm. I feel like, if anything, the TTRPG industry isn't in nearly as bad a place as many are. It's mostly comprised of freelancers who work from home. It can deliver all its output digitally, side-stepping logistics and manufacturing issues. People can play online (and indeed, if your country is in any sort of lockdown, it's never been easier to find timeslots that work for your whole group.) Unless you share my weakness for impulse purchases of every cool-looking thing on DTRPG, it's can be a pretty cheap hobby; $100 can get you years of enjoyment.
The obvious exceptions are physical books and FLGSs. And that's not nothing. But I wouldn't be surprised if RPG companies in general come through this in OK shape.
Topps is owned by two companies: Madison Dearborn Partners (a company specializing in leveraged buyouts of other companies) and The Tornante Company (itself a subsidiary of Disney).
Topps could sell of the IP to make capital, but they don't need to. Although if you hear rumblings that Topps is declaring bankruptcy, expect them to sell fast. And cheap.
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books.Stop whining and resume buying the bad books, consumer, or there might not be any more bad books to buy!
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books.Stop whining and resume buying the bad books, consumer, or there might not be any more bad books to buy!
For avoidance of doubt, I use bad here both subjectively (I dont like 6e) and objectively (6e is sloppily edited and has numerous serious inconsistencies and mathematical incoherencies even after a full year of errata.)
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books.Stop whining and resume buying the bad books, consumer, or there might not be any more bad books to buy!
For avoidance of doubt, I use bad here both subjectively (I dont like 6e) and objectively (6e is sloppily edited and has numerous serious inconsistencies and mathematical incoherencies even after a full year of errata.)
Well, that's the other piece of it. I'm sure you know there's people who stopped buying new books after 3e and after 4eA. It appears like there's significantly less people buying books after 5e as well.
There's folks playing 1e, 2e, and 3e games without any worries about all of this, or without wanting any new books.
One thing to note for FastJack's point- getting 200 sales across 2 books will net you less profit than 200 sales across 1 book. Take TS: Valencia, for instance. It has a price of 2.99, so it's grossed between 149.50 and 299.00. After DTRPG's cut, that's about $105 - $210 dollars. To break even, they had to spend that amount or less on production. The cover alone is likely in the $50 range, assuming they did it cheap and didn't reuse old assets. I bought it For Science, and this is the breakdown on wordcount and art assets:
* 21 pages total
* Layout is likely reused from old work, but they still had to pay someone to put it together
* One writer, one editor, and three production staff credited
* Factchecking/playtesting are also credited, but they likely did it for free
* Ignoring the records sheets at the back, total comes out to about 7.5k words. Standard rate in the industry is 0.03 per word for writing, which comes out to $225. The bare minimum I've heard is 0.005 (half a cent) per word, so that would be $37.50.
* For art: 1 cover art, 1 half-page art (Reused later with a grid overlay), 3 quarter-page cartoony art, 2 quarter page grayscale art. My best guestimate is $50, $35, $10 x 3, and $15 x 2 for a total of $145.
* The 3 records sheets in the back were credited to two people
I don't have a good reference for what the editor would be paid (Likely half a cent per word? They might be salaried), or the layout artist. Either way, you're looking at a base cost of $182.50 - $370.00, plus whatever they paid the layout artist and editor. Less if they reused art or didn't pay the artists.
In any case, if the rest of the TS line has similar base costs, I'd characterize anything that's still at copper 6 months later as being lost profit. Silver is closer to breaking even, but that's still between $210 and $525, and might not have been worth the time put into it.
Battletech is certainly putting out more material, but I don't think it has the same ROI as its SR products, even the ones not selling as well.
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books.”Stop whining and resume buying the bad books, consumer, or there might not be any more bad books to buy!”
For avoidance of doubt, I use “bad” here both subjectively (“I don’t like 6e”) and objectively (“6e is sloppily edited and has numerous serious inconsistencies and mathematical incoherencies even after a full year of errata.”)
Well, that's the other piece of it. I'm sure you know there's people who stopped buying new books after 3e and after 4eA. It appears like there's significantly less people buying books after 5e as well.
There's folks playing 1e, 2e, and 3e games without any worries about all of this, or without wanting any new books.
One thing to note for FastJack's point- getting 200 sales across 2 books will net you less profit than 200 sales across 1 book. Take TS: Valencia, for instance. It has a price of 2.99, so it's grossed between 149.50 and 299.00. After DTRPG's cut, that's about $105 - $210 dollars. To break even, they had to spend that amount or less on production. The cover alone is likely in the $50 range, assuming they did it cheap and didn't reuse old assets. I bought it For Science, and this is the breakdown on wordcount and art assets:
* 21 pages total
* Layout is likely reused from old work, but they still had to pay someone to put it together
* One writer, one editor, and three production staff credited
* Factchecking/playtesting are also credited, but they likely did it for free
* Ignoring the records sheets at the back, total comes out to about 7.5k words. Standard rate in the industry is 0.03 per word for writing, which comes out to $225. The bare minimum I've heard is 0.005 (half a cent) per word, so that would be $37.50.
* For art: 1 cover art, 1 half-page art (Reused later with a grid overlay), 3 quarter-page cartoony art, 2 quarter page grayscale art. My best guestimate is $50, $35, $10 x 3, and $15 x 2 for a total of $145.
* The 3 records sheets in the back were credited to two people
I don't have a good reference for what the editor would be paid (Likely half a cent per word? They might be salaried), or the layout artist. Either way, you're looking at a base cost of $182.50 - $370.00, plus whatever they paid the layout artist and editor. Less if they reused art or didn't pay the artists.
In any case, if the rest of the TS line has similar base costs, I'd characterize anything that's still at copper 6 months later as being lost profit. Silver is closer to breaking even, but that's still between $210 and $525, and might not have been worth the time put into it.
Battletech is certainly putting out more material, but I don't think it has the same ROI as its SR products, even the ones not selling as well.
There is a lot more you are forgetting, and are making some wild assumptions.
The first one is the cost of Artwork.
The price you pay has a great deal to do with who did the work, what the art entails (detail, original format)....
To give give you an idea. Ethan Van Scriver is a well known artist. As such he was paid $20,000 for 13 live pen "sketches" used in Jordan Peterson's book "12 simple rules".
So, a little over $1500 per piece.
OTOH, several DC artists have let slip over the last little while that DC page rate was roughly $21 for each FULL page... (Again, dependent on the artist. If your name isn't Wade, Jimenez, or Reis, or on that tier, you are not making money).
The company have an Office? If so, how big? (for an Idea, Cdn Commerical rates are $33/sqFt). Warehouse space?
And then there is Utilities.. advertisement... Taxes..
And sadly, Battletech is the bread and butter for CGL... one just has to look out there in media.
Do 2 Youtube searches... Shadowrun. And Battletech. which one gives you more returns.
*Do the shadowrun one just for the fake TV and movie Ads! some of them are amazing!!!
Battletech has 7+ comper games associated to it, including one that was released i the last year, and an FTP online game that has thousands of active global players... (not HUGE, but not bad)
Shadowrun's has had... 5? 4?
Last I heard (and this wad YEARS ago) CGL was the only bid on the Battletech and SR IPs. Take that for what's it worth :/
Topps is owned by two companies: Madison Dearborn Partners (a company specializing in leveraged buyouts of other companies) and The Tornante Company (itself a subsidiary of Disney). After being burned by WizKids' failure, they have zero interest in games and kept the IP because it's easy money. Catalyst was created from former WizKids employees and fans of the game that bought the IP to make sure the games didn't just disappear. I don't know how the licensing works, but I'm pretty sure CGL can't drop Shadowrun and keep BattleTech, or vice versa. As long as one is selling, the other game will be producing.
Topps could sell of the IP to make capital, but they don't need to. Although if you hear rumblings that Topps is declaring bankruptcy, expect them to sell fast. And cheap.
Since Topps, through the chain of subsidiaries, is part of Disney, I don't expect any offers (except ridiculous ones) to have a chance to purchase it. Again, it's free money for the company that is returned every year.
For the last two, Topps could raise the license's fees (and may have done so since CGL first got them), but they aren't going to do so in a bluff to try and get Catalyst to pay way more than they can. If CGL's sales suddenly quadruple, I'm sure there will be a renegotiation for the license in the next quarter. And, as I said before, I believe the license is for BattleTech AND Shadowrun, so CGL won't drop the license.
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books. To give you a clear idea, here's how it looks for ALL of CGL on DriveThruRPG:
Topps is owned by two companies: Madison Dearborn Partners (a company specializing in leveraged buyouts of other companies) and The Tornante Company (itself a subsidiary of Disney). After being burned by WizKids' failure, they have zero interest in games and kept the IP because it's easy money. Catalyst was created from former WizKids employees and fans of the game that bought the IP to make sure the games didn't just disappear. I don't know how the licensing works, but I'm pretty sure CGL can't drop Shadowrun and keep BattleTech, or vice versa. As long as one is selling, the other game will be producing.
That was my understanding; The IPs were a package deal, and both need to be developed under the current license.Topps could sell of the IP to make capital, but they don't need to. Although if you hear rumblings that Topps is declaring bankruptcy, expect them to sell fast. And cheap.
Since Topps, through the chain of subsidiaries, is part of Disney, I don't expect any offers (except ridiculous ones) to have a chance to purchase it. Again, it's free money for the company that is returned every year.
For the last two, Topps could raise the license's fees (and may have done so since CGL first got them), but they aren't going to do so in a bluff to try and get Catalyst to pay way more than they can. If CGL's sales suddenly quadruple, I'm sure there will be a renegotiation for the license in the next quarter. And, as I said before, I believe the license is for BattleTech AND Shadowrun, so CGL won't drop the license.
Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books. To give you a clear idea, here's how it looks for ALL of CGL on DriveThruRPG:
Normally I would agree that Disney wouldn't sell, but they have had a horrible year with a loss (so far) of -$18 billion on their theme parks alone. During the height of the Corona lock-down, they took out at least one loan of $5 billion. Given that some of their divisions (Marvel comics, Star Wars) have been grossly under-preforming for awhile now, I could see them eyeing a sell-off of some of their lesser IPs. As it stands, they are going to have to answer some hard questions to their investors by the end of their current fiscal year.
I hope in 7E they take a big risk and redesign the rules mostly from scratch. Probably won't happen but that's what it would take to fix the game imo.Screw 7e, IMO; I'd much rather see a really well-thought-out [1] Anarchy 2e. Easier to build up from solid foundations than it is to chip away at twisted baroque architecture.
Eh, Priority isn't half as bad as people claim, unless you want new people stuck in chargen for days with karmagen. BP was a living nightmare. Life Modules needs a frickin' excel sheet to properly look at."This chargen method might be bad but all the rest are terrible" is perhaps not the amazing defence of the system you think it is.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with penllawen.Hey, I am the proverbial stopped clock, and I guess its my lucky time of day!
When 7E finally comes around, maybe it's time to start over instead of trying to tack on rules & such to keep the "feel" of a system that was pretty broken from the start.Sounds good to me.
Anarchy 2e (https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolShadowrun/comments/ec0v14/sr_2050_revised_version_of_2050_set_2nd_edition/), you say... ;)I hope in 7E they take a big risk and redesign the rules mostly from scratch. Probably won't happen but that's what it would take to fix the game imo.Screw 7e, IMO; I'd much rather see a really well-thought-out [1] Anarchy 2e. Easier to build up from solid foundations than it is to chip away at twisted baroque architecture.
[1] Insert obligatory Catalyst lols here.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with penllawen. Not that 6E is totally broken, but if they do go with a new edition, go all the way back to the drawing board.
Most of the stuff you see in the games that have been around for longer than 20 years are set that way because, when designing the game in 80's & 90's, the designers had to make the rules very different from D&D, else they would have TSR sending out C&D letters and threatening copyright infringement.
The reason there's 8 total attributes? D&D had six. Reason for the D6's? D&D had the d20 base. Reason why magic was written with Force and such? Couldn't do Vancian magic, since that was D&D's back yard.
But with 3rd edition and OGLs, Designers are now free to "borrow" ideas that work without having to jump through too many legal hoops. Granted, if it looks too much like D&D, you have to stuff and OGL page in your book. When 7E finally comes around, maybe it's time to start over instead of trying to tack on rules & such to keep the "feel" of a system that was pretty broken from the start.
I'd love to see some changes to the time line, and look at doing a broader spectrum SR. A fantasy fey setting like the Elf kingdom book from 5e, A low magic SR as the Occult war around ww2, the Traditional Cyberpunk setting, and maybe some kind more advanced future setting similar to the Expanse. Just a thought.
Maybe in days to come PF2 may eventually persuade the industry back into crunchy systems, but if I was betting man, my money would be on TCoE for top TTRPG seller of 2020. It's already number one on Amazon.
Maybe in days to come PF2 may eventually persuade the industry back into crunchy systems, but if I was betting man, my money would be on TCoE for top TTRPG seller of 2020. It's already number one on Amazon.
What is TCoE? I tried searching for it, but the search engine had a fit trying to figure out what it stood for.
They could try borrowing more of Earthsea's magic, what with Names and all that. I never played through Earthdawn, so I don't know how much "inspiration' the game got from Earthsea.
I really loved the magic system.Shadowrun and Earthdawn have the most interesting and best realised magic systems in RPGs, and thats a hill Id die on.
Maybe in days to come PF2 may eventually persuade the industry back into crunchy systems, but if I was betting man, my money would be on TCoE for top TTRPG seller of 2020. It's already number one on Amazon.
What is TCoE? I tried searching for it, but the search engine had a fit trying to figure out what it stood for.
I'm guessing Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (https://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/books/16211/ref=zg_bs_tab_t_bsnr)
The term Alchera has been around for a while, since Street Magic apparently.
It doesn't matter to me that the dice pools are a bit smaller, they're still arbitrarily large. A common defense is that the large dice pools create more consistent outcomes but telling a good story at a good pace is far more important to me. I've had players complain during a session when there was lots of guys involved in a fight that were each rolling 10+ dice. Way too slow and completely unnecessary. To each their own, of course.
I really loved the magic system.Shadowrun and Earthdawn have the most interesting and best realised magic systems in RPGs, and thats a hill Id die on.
Last I heard (and this wad YEARS ago) CGL was the only bid on the Battletech and SR IPs. Take that for what's it worth :/
My understanding was that they (Catalyst) were only interested in the Battletech IP, but Topps insisted that Shadowrun be included as a package deal (i.e. Catalyst either developed both, or didn't get the license).
I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers. :-\
Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...
Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...
Itīs also very very important to make sure that the whole group of grunts can only earn a max. of 2 Edge per round, so that the PC can already ignore one half of the AR-DR comparison in 90% of times ::)
They were grunts so only had 1 Condition Monitor, yes, but this was SR5 so no grunt group rules. So yeah, there were spirits + sprites + players vs agents + drones + IC + enemy combatants, with 18 Initiative Scores and 36 total individuals. Having the enemies take time to get into the fight so they were coming in waves, was the only thing that saved me.
Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...
I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers. :-\
Don't see how it's sick. Accurate analysis can only be done through having solid data. Opinion is opinion. Accurate data can lead to understanding facts.
Sales are the lifeblood of CGL remaining a going concern, are they not?
Not that I'd personally be terribly against seeing who Topps licenses the IP to next at this point.
It's just a plain old fashioned argument to pity. Don't ask me why- if we are supposed to be concerned about the hardship that CGL is going through, then sales numbers are the most "visible" sign of how it's doing.
Still, there's a reason why I stuck to analyzing the numbers themselves in that post, and not rushing to any judgements on the success of CGL as a company, whether sales decreases are good/bad, etc. I understand that it's easy for someone to take something like that personally, because regardless of whether or not you like CGL, people on this board are attached to SR and its success.
I think we (players and GM) learned a lesson about what happens in 5-6 people strat throwing grenades like candy at a Christmas parade.
I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers. :-\
Don't see how it's sick. Accurate analysis can only be done through having solid data. Opinion is opinion. Accurate data can lead to understanding facts.Sales are the lifeblood of CGL remaining a going concern, are they not?
Not that I'd personally be terribly against seeing who Topps licenses the IP to next at this point.It's just a plain old fashioned argument to pity. Don't ask me why- if we are supposed to be concerned about the hardship that CGL is going through, then sales numbers are the most "visible" sign of how it's doing.
Still, there's a reason why I stuck to analyzing the numbers themselves in that post, and not rushing to any judgements on the success of CGL as a company, whether sales decreases are good/bad, etc. I understand that it's easy for someone to take something like that personally, because regardless of whether or not you like CGL, people on this board are attached to SR and its success.
How dare anyone bring honest statistics or facts into the discussion! We all knows sales figures are due to the plague. Considering that someone might actually find the edition undesirable enough to skip purchases is obviously fake news guys!
Unfortunately, CGL keeps streetdates close to their chest, and anyone who knows anything is bound by NDA. I do expect to see Streetwyrd 'soonish', but that still can be a significant while.
I know I started playing online games again likely due to boredom and lack of social contact, and me posting about poor sales from CGL is an un-fun thing to someone who enjoys the brand and wants it to do well.
As for handfuls of dice- it's hard to get more than 18-20 in a pool in 6e, and you have to be trying for it. At the same time, 10-14 is about the minimum anyone would have in a pool they use a lot. 6e has less dice than 5e due to this, and also because they don't have soak pools with 40+ dice.
In both cases, it's more dice than you would be rolling in 3e or earlier
...Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.
...Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.
You know Covid could go either way, it could reduce or increase sales.
With everyone stuck at home more money might be spent on a hobby you can do at home, like say TTRPGs via roll20 etc.
Of course it should be relatively easy to show this by looking at other publishers sales over the same period.
If their sales are generally dropping then Covid has likely had some negative impact on 6e.
If they have not, or have increased then you know it's certainly the srun playerbase rejecting Catalyst's latest shovelware.
...Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.
You know Covid could go either way, it could reduce or increase sales.
With everyone stuck at home more money might be spent on a hobby you can do at home, like say TTRPGs via roll20 etc.
Of course it should be relatively easy to show this by looking at other publishers sales over the same period.
If their sales are generally dropping then Covid has likely had some negative impact on 6e.
If they have not, or have increased then you know it's certainly the srun playerbase rejecting Catalyst's latest shovelware.
Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...
Itīs also very very important to make sure that the whole group of grunts can only earn a max. of 2 Edge per round, so that the PC can already ignore one half of the AR-DR comparison in 90% of times ::)
That phenomenon is one of the reasons I feel the game plays better without a cap on edge gains.
Just my thoughts.Personally, I'm playing in more games now than ever, all over Discord and Fantasy Grounds. Cutting down on the drive, meetup, and food runs means players have more money for the game products (at least, that's the excuse I've been using for my purchases...)
Covid/Gaming:
When people are working more from home and spending more time in Video Conferences.... do you they want to spend another 4+ hours only doing the same thing for an RPG? It would be interesting to see how that medium has faired in all of this.
Edge:
I am looking forward to the new edges that come out. I think most players will stick to the same 5(+\-) edges that suits their character. I am already seeing it in my groups.
Regards,
SL
I would disagree...
In the age of Social media, feedback and reviews are almost useless, as 'the spin machine" and "hype train" can spin whatever narrative they wish, but that doesn't make a product good, bad, or even viable...
Not to mention, that many "reviews" these days are not even from the customer/audience base (and more from 'outrage', political narrative, attention).
Sales are the only thing you can go by...
But to say a product is "failing" you need to account for all factors and Covid is a factor....(could be up, could be down)....
Until you look at the big picture, you have no real idea...
....I live a hour north of SF....
....I live a hour north of SF....
You're very close to me, Novato?
Clearly outcomes are going to vary, but I havent gamed this much sense right after college. I could easily have a game ever night of the week and twice on Saturday and Sunday. So yeah gaming is for sure happening. While dead tree books maybe down, and honestly given Amazon Im not at all sure thats true, at very least online sale would only be strengthened currently. A product doesnt have to be quality to be successful. A system can have holes big enough to drive trucks through and still return big profits, or a system can be really great and still utterly fail. Thats business, Im sure everyone here has seen both of those things happen. In the end did the company make enough profit to make it worth keeping on going with IP is the only meaningful outcome.
Clearly outcomes are going to vary, but I havent gamed this much sense right after college. I could easily have a game ever night of the week and twice on Saturday and Sunday. So yeah gaming is for sure happening. While dead tree books maybe down, and honestly given Amazon Im not at all sure thats true, at very least online sale would only be strengthened currently. A product doesnt have to be quality to be successful. A system can have holes big enough to drive trucks through and still return big profits, or a system can be really great and still utterly fail. Thats business, Im sure everyone here has seen both of those things happen. In the end did the company make enough profit to make it worth keeping on going with IP is the only meaningful outcome.
I think this is true for a while but leaving aside any debate about rules the poor editorial values are going to continue to shed customers. For myself I spent a fair bit of money on 5e and I kept thinking they would fix the editing problems but it never really happened and the quality never really improved even in the new products.
As MC says there are a ton of good systems out there edited and designed by people who actually know what they're doing. There's also plenty of setting material in existence for Shadowrun. I don't really need to give CGL any more money if they can't produce better quality material. Running Shadowrun in a decent ruleset really isn't hard. I truly feel for the freelancers that produce work for this game. I think they deserve better.
You know, the other day I was doing an archive binge of a long-lived webcomic (http://www.weregeek.com/2008/04/07/) and ran into commentary describing 4e original as a "World of Darkness" ripoff. I was trying to figure out how much of that was just the regular "change is bad" that comes with a good proportion of any TTRPG audience whenever a new edition is released. I've heard decent things about 4e 20th Anniversary, but this was before that. (It's also worth noting that World of Darkness based a lot of its rules decisions on original Shadowrun's rules, so it might be chicken and egg there)
I guess the difference there is that in the comments, there's more than 1-2 people talking about how the new edition is the best so far.
I would be curious to see what the true size of Shadowrun's player base is, compared to the past. It's true that CGL has been hemorrhaging fans since Fun Events about a decade ago, but the TTRPG industry as a whole has also been growing during that time.
I look at it as Shadowrun has been a dying IP for the last 15 years. (Since WizKids got the licence)
With the printing of 4th edition it has been nothing but a downward spiral for the brand with every new edition driving away more and more of the fans that made it a big name in the RPG industry. The took a unique and beloved combat system and made it the current generic system that was popular at the time. A trend that has continued to this day. 6th is just the next failure in this 15 year run.
Another issues that has plagued Shadowrun is when it was first made. Due to the timing and the tech of the time, Shadowrun now comes off as very old-school cyberpunk truing to shoehorn in modern-day tech.
It may be a unpopular opinion but at this time IMHO Shadowrun either needs a reset or to just be shelved. In its current stated there is just to much baggage for new players and the system will not appeal to old players. And CGL needs to stop trying to follow trends and chase after the simplistic rules crowd who, after working in a game store I can tell you have the attention span of a moth, and remember the fans that supported them all these years and try to make a game that they will like.
Just my 2 cents.
You know, the other day I was doing an archive binge of a long-lived webcomic (http://www.weregeek.com/2008/04/07/) and ran into commentary describing 4e original as a "World of Darkness" ripoff. I was trying to figure out how much of that was just the regular "change is bad" that comes with a good proportion of any TTRPG audience whenever a new edition is released. I've heard decent things about 4e 20th Anniversary, but this was before that. (It's also worth noting that World of Darkness based a lot of its rules decisions on original Shadowrun's rules, so it might be chicken and egg there)
I guess the difference there is that in the comments, there's more than 1-2 people talking about how the new edition is the best so far.
I guess the difference there is that in the comments, there's more than 1-2 people talking about how the new edition is the best so far.
Anecodotal.
My experience is 180 to this, I don't know a single person that is playing 6e and most of the srun players I know have either abandoned it entirely or are sticking with an earlier edition (4e or 5e).
The only people I know that are actually playing 6e are a couple people on this board, and that is it.
And of those people I can't think of single one that prefers it to 5e.
The only yardstick to measure the full extent of 6e's failure is sales numbers, and everything I have seen looks pretty piss poor so far.
Source__________ | Yes__ | It's Complicated__ | No__ | Total Respondents |
Overall | 8 | 16 | 54 | 78 |
Official Forums | 3 | 6 | 7 | 16 |
Dumpshock | 1 | 0 | 16 | 17 |
/r/Shadowrun | 4 | 10 | 30 | 44 |
ZeeMastermind | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
Clearly outcomes are going to vary, but I havent gamed this much sense right after college. I could easily have a game ever night of the week and twice on Saturday and Sunday. So yeah gaming is for sure happening. While dead tree books maybe down, and honestly given Amazon Im not at all sure thats true, at very least online sale would only be strengthened currently. A product doesnt have to be quality to be successful. A system can have holes big enough to drive trucks through and still return big profits, or a system can be really great and still utterly fail. Thats business, Im sure everyone here has seen both of those things happen. In the end did the company make enough profit to make it worth keeping on going with IP is the only meaningful outcome.
I think this is true for a while but leaving aside any debate about rules the poor editorial values are going to continue to shed customers. For myself I spent a fair bit of money on 5e and I kept thinking they would fix the editing problems but it never really happened and the quality never really improved even in the new products.
As MC says there are a ton of good systems out there edited and designed by people who actually know what they're doing. There's also plenty of setting material in existence for Shadowrun. I don't really need to give CGL any more money if they can't produce better quality material. Running Shadowrun in a decent ruleset really isn't hard. I truly feel for the freelancers that produce work for this game. I think they deserve better.
I look at it as Shadowrun has been a dying IP for the last 15 years. (Since WizKids got the licence)
With the printing of 4th edition it has been nothing but a downward spiral for the brand with every new edition driving away more and more of the fans that made it a big name in the RPG industry. The took a unique and beloved combat system and made it the current generic system that was popular at the time. A trend that has continued to this day. 6th is just the next failure in this 15 year run.
Another issues that has plagued Shadowrun is when it was first made. Due to the timing and the tech of the time, Shadowrun now comes off as very old-school cyberpunk truing to shoehorn in modern-day tech.
It may be a unpopular opinion but at this time IMHO Shadowrun either needs a reset or to just be shelved. In its current stated there is just to much baggage for new players and the system will not appeal to old players. And CGL needs to stop trying to follow trends and chase after the simplistic rules crowd who, after working in a game store I can tell you have the attention span of a moth, and remember the fans that supported them all these years and try to make a game that they will like.
Just my 2 cents.
Given how hostility towards SR6 also turns off new players that bought SR6, those polls cannot be representative unfortunately. Only CGL can say how well SR6 does compared to SR5, and any knowledge I have of said comparison falls strictly behind NDA, which I have no intent to break.
Why this topic keeps coming back month after month, despite there being nothing new to really say except for people going once again 'yeah but I really think SR6 sucks and Shadowrun is dying', as if they WANT the entire franchise to disappear, is beyond me.
One thing to consider oB is timing.
When 4e came out, it was after almost a 3 year SR dry spell. Yea there was a couple of 'end of line books' (SOTA 2064), but it eas clear they were written while still under FASA.
So there was some goodwill and egerness for anything SR.
Sadly, 4e (original) was filled with errors, and editing FUBARs. It was 4eA that got SR4e praise (if fleeting,) But even 4e had issues (matrix, gun modding, nanotech).
5e got some praise from the "grognards" (like me) for a return to some missing concepts (like deckers actually working)...
But also drew some massive hate as well... (Reddit spend about 6 months coming in to scream bloody murder)...
Now 6e comes out.... and well, I don't own it yet, so I have no comment on its quality.
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.
I don't think anyone is under the impression that all of /r/shadowrun loves 6e, and it's just a couple of weirdos who don't like it. I don't think anyone is under the impression that DTRPG sales aren't an indicator of how well a product is doing.
It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.
Instead we got nu-edge.
If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.
I'd like to see some evidence that this has any bearing on 6e's reception.
I have never heard anyone say anything to this effect and as one of the more anti-6e folks I can attest nothing could be further from the truth for me and the folks I know.
5e desperately needed rationalizing, streamlining and improvements in the decker and rigger areas.
That's change that could have greatly improved the game.
Instead we got nu-edge.
If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.
Heck if they had deleted 5e entirely and replaced it with a better system i'd still likely by buying everything that came out.
It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.
I'd like to see some evidence that this has any bearing on 6e's reception.
I have never heard anyone say anything to this effect and as one of the more anti-6e folks I can attest nothing could be further from the truth for me and the folks I know.
5e desperately needed rationalizing, streamlining and improvements in the decker and rigger areas.
That's change that could have greatly improved the game.
Instead we got nu-edge.
If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.
Heck if they had deleted 5e entirely and replaced it with a better system i'd still likely by buying everything that came out.
It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.
Well I am one person to whom the poor editing in 5th edition was a lot more of a put off to me than questionable rule design. I can deal with rules I don't like. What I will not deal with is the need to proofread and revise a book I paid for that's full of grade school errors, missing references, references that no longer apply but got copied and pasted from the old version and so on. I don't know if 6e is as bad as 5e but I have no motivation to find out. I gave enough money to CGL already for shoddy product.
The 4A edition is a good example. There was some odd rules choices in that edition but it was damned well written and edited. It was a snap to house rule stuff I didn't like. If 5e had kept every design decision and just been put together as well as 4A then I'd have already bought 6e by now.
No one likes crap editing so I don't think that was his focus. I think he was focusing more on the change bad part as it seems to boil down complaints into just not liking change instead of it being a actual mechanically worse rules system for them. If you switch from a steak to tofu its not disliking change that is your complaint, but that you got tofu.
I look at it as Shadowrun has been a dying IP for the last 15 years. (Since WizKids got the licence)
With the printing of 4th edition it has been nothing but a downward spiral for the brand with every new edition driving away more and more of the fans that made it a big name in the RPG industry. The took a unique and beloved combat system and made it the current generic system that was popular at the time. A trend that has continued to this day. 6th is just the next failure in this 15 year run.
Another issues that has plagued Shadowrun is when it was first made. Due to the timing and the tech of the time, Shadowrun now comes off as very old-school cyberpunk truing to shoehorn in modern-day tech.
It may be a unpopular opinion but at this time IMHO Shadowrun either needs a reset or to just be shelved. In its current stated there is just to much baggage for new players and the system will not appeal to old players. And CGL needs to stop trying to follow trends and chase after the simplistic rules crowd who, after working in a game store I can tell you have the attention span of a moth, and remember the fans that supported them all these years and try to make a game that they will like.
Just my 2 cents.
I would be interested in hearing of your store experience, just to see if it lines up with what I am getting told by my buddies at my local store....
Because i am hearing the exact same thing. DnD 5e may be a huge seller, but it appears to be driving a HUGE rift into its own audience....
(For the record, I don't play dnd 5e. so this is all anecdotal). Apparently what is happening at my store is they have had to basically divide the players into 3 groups...
Larpers, Old skool players. and "first timers"...
The old Skool players (those that have been around for multiple DnD editions) can't stand the whining and complaining of the "new Players" (those that came in during 5e), and "New Players" hate the old skool players because they are "set in their ways and won't change"
And the Larpers just seem to drive both groups nuts...
Not sure what is happening to western media in general.... my Shops Comic section has gone from a 50 foot long by 8 foot high wall, to just a 5 by 5 foot rack, while the manga section has gone from 4 by 4 foot shelf to a 20 foot along wall...
The RPG section has shrunk a fair bit.... But Board games have expanded, as well as his section of East Asian books, games, and puzzles. Now some of this makes sense as we have a huge East Asian community... but the board game increase really surprised me... (the comic and manga thing, not so much...)
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.
I'd like to see some evidence that this has any bearing on 6e's reception.
I have never heard anyone say anything to this effect and as one of the more anti-6e folks I can attest nothing could be further from the truth for me and the folks I know.
5e desperately needed rationalizing, streamlining and improvements in the decker and rigger areas.
That's change that could have greatly improved the game.
Instead we got nu-edge.
If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.
Heck if they had deleted 5e entirely and replaced it with a better system i'd still likely by buying everything that came out.
It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.
I don't think anyone is under the impression that all of /r/shadowrun loves 6e, and it's just a couple of weirdos who don't like it. I don't think anyone is under the impression that DTRPG sales aren't an indicator of how well a product is doing.
Lol oB, you give some of these fools WAY too much credit. Jab aside, your posts always seem logic driven rather than emotion driven, and I appreciate your perspectives.
Someone literally said "Changes too many things for the worse," which could be taken either way.I think that was me!
Given how hostility towards SR6 also turns off new players that bought SR6, those polls cannot be representative unfortunately. Only CGL can say how well SR6 does compared to SR5, and any knowledge I have of said comparison falls strictly behind NDA, which I have no intent to break.
Why this topic keeps coming back month after month, despite there being nothing new to really say except for people going once again 'yeah but I really think SR6 sucks and Shadowrun is dying', as if they WANT the entire franchise to disappear, is beyond me.
10. The future looks bleak. Not even sure I will buy seventh edition because I have completely lost faith in CGL. The only way I'd return, most likely, is if the rules were rebuilt from the ground up and made a lot simpler. Crunchy rules can be good but they need to be written properly, less rules means less room for error and a cleaner game. Sell something functional and practical, not a giant mess.
10. The future looks bleak. Not even sure I will buy seventh edition because I have completely lost faith in CGL. The only way I'd return, most likely, is if the rules were rebuilt from the ground up and made a lot simpler. Crunchy rules can be good but they need to be written properly, less rules means less room for error and a cleaner game. Sell something functional and practical, not a giant mess.
Clear and concise rules are also a lot easier to "patch" if you don't like something. I don't think you can please everybody, but being clear in your own ideas and your own system will go a long way.
My 6E journey went like this:
1. Excitement and eagerness for change
2. Edge revamp seemed cool, I was willing to overlook the strength issue and other things because the rules were trimmed down a lot overall imo
3. Happy about lots of improvements to the game
4. Ran a campaign that lasted for about seven session and was action packed and awesome
5. Problems arose. I began to dislike some of the rules such as edge and overly complex magic and matrix, confusion with guns accessories that come with certain guns, lots of little issues sprung up.
6. My lenience with the strength change faded, I couldn't accept it any longer.
7. The sheer number of errors in the book turned me off heavily, it's just too frequent.
8. My campaign died and we did not manage to get another one going. My brother never even made one because he gave up on CGL and now he doesn't even want to play Shadowrun anymore because we've been trying for many years to make the bad rules work.
9. Now we have completely left Shadowrun. I only tune in for updates but have no interest in any novels, which I plan to one day own all of.
10. The future looks bleak. Not even sure I will buy seventh edition because I have completely lost faith in CGL. The only way I'd return, most likely, is if the rules were rebuilt from the ground up and made a lot simpler. Crunchy rules can be good but they need to be written properly, less rules means less room for error and a cleaner game. Sell something functional and practical, not a giant mess.
I think this is a story that has happened to a good number of folks. Peeps showed up excited by the concept of the new edition, and then had come apart with more regular use.
To me the way forward is simply revise your games back to your preferred previous edition.
To me 3rd or 4th are our most complete editions. We have everything that came out for them, and we can easily build complete and complex campaigns with those completed rules sets.
If folks are unhappy with the current writing then go back to before they took over. It's a simple and straight forward solution to the problem.
I think this is a story that has happened to a good number of folks. Peeps showed up excited by the concept of the new edition, and then had come apart with more regular use.
To me the way forward is simply revise your games back to your preferred previous edition.
To me 3rd or 4th are our most complete editions. We have everything that came out for them, and we can easily build complete and complex campaigns with those completed rules sets.
If folks are unhappy with the current writing then go back to before they took over. It's a simple and straight forward solution to the problem.
Ideally yes. Current editions have a certain power though. The missions for example will be designed for them, so people who do those are kind of stuck. When I run things I mainly use published materials, but I'm okay using a 6e mission and turning it into a 3e run. Its some work, but less than building one from scratch and I'm just too damn tired to make my own adventure from scratch every week. I wonder how many current 6e players are playing it not because it is their favorite edition but just because it is the current one. I guess a similar question on the other side would be how many players playing older editions never gave the current one a shot, or just aren't playing it because not enough material has been created for it yet.
I think this is a story that has happened to a good number of folks. Peeps showed up excited by the concept of the new edition, and then had come apart with more regular use.
To me the way forward is simply revise your games back to your preferred previous edition.
To me 3rd or 4th are our most complete editions. We have everything that came out for them, and we can easily build complete and complex campaigns with those completed rules sets.
If folks are unhappy with the current writing then go back to before they took over. It's a simple and straight forward solution to the problem.
Ideally yes. Current editions have a certain power though. The missions for example will be designed for them, so people who do those are kind of stuck. When I run things I mainly use published materials, but I'm okay using a 6e mission and turning it into a 3e run. Its some work, but less than building one from scratch and I'm just too damn tired to make my own adventure from scratch every week. I wonder how many current 6e players are playing it not because it is their favorite edition but just because it is the current one. I guess a similar question on the other side would be how many players playing older editions never gave the current one a shot, or just aren't playing it because not enough material has been created for it yet.
See, for me, I have never really used any of the published adventures :P
Yes, I have them and have read them, but they are never a good fit to the group that players have created for various reasons. So, I have often had to rely on creating my own adventures, some times right on the fly, for my table. And after years of doing so, I have gotten pretty good at it..
So, for me and GMs like me, The Edition changes that happen are more or less just a chance to try something new, and see if we like and enjoy the new meta...
Often times, we stick to the new material just for ease... But if something really upsets us, we can just revert back to an older edition and continue on. And for Shadowrun, where the plot is mostly meta, the rules under which the "world plot" advances doesn't matter... IF "world plot" even matters to your table....
Plot often is the first casualty of contact with Players..
I think this is a story that has happened to a good number of folks. Peeps showed up excited by the concept of the new edition, and then had come apart with more regular use.
To me the way forward is simply revise your games back to your preferred previous edition.
To me 3rd or 4th are our most complete editions. We have everything that came out for them, and we can easily build complete and complex campaigns with those completed rules sets.
If folks are unhappy with the current writing then go back to before they took over. It's a simple and straight forward solution to the problem.
Ideally yes. Current editions have a certain power though. The missions for example will be designed for them, so people who do those are kind of stuck. When I run things I mainly use published materials, but I'm okay using a 6e mission and turning it into a 3e run. Its some work, but less than building one from scratch and I'm just too damn tired to make my own adventure from scratch every week. I wonder how many current 6e players are playing it not because it is their favorite edition but just because it is the current one. I guess a similar question on the other side would be how many players playing older editions never gave the current one a shot, or just aren't playing it because not enough material has been created for it yet.
See, for me, I have never really used any of the published adventures :P
Yes, I have them and have read them, but they are never a good fit to the group that players have created for various reasons. So, I have often had to rely on creating my own adventures, some times right on the fly, for my table. And after years of doing so, I have gotten pretty good at it..
So, for me and GMs like me, The Edition changes that happen are more or less just a chance to try something new, and see if we like and enjoy the new meta...
Often times, we stick to the new material just for ease... But if something really upsets us, we can just revert back to an older edition and continue on. And for Shadowrun, where the plot is mostly meta, the rules under which the "world plot" advances doesn't matter... IF "world plot" even matters to your table....
Plot often is the first casualty of contact with Players..
I think this is a story that has happened to a good number of folks. Peeps showed up excited by the concept of the new edition, and then had come apart with more regular use.
To me the way forward is simply revise your games back to your preferred previous edition.
To me 3rd or 4th are our most complete editions. We have everything that came out for them, and we can easily build complete and complex campaigns with those completed rules sets.
If folks are unhappy with the current writing then go back to before they took over. It's a simple and straight forward solution to the problem.
Ideally yes. Current editions have a certain power though. The missions for example will be designed for them, so people who do those are kind of stuck. When I run things I mainly use published materials, but I'm okay using a 6e mission and turning it into a 3e run. Its some work, but less than building one from scratch and I'm just too damn tired to make my own adventure from scratch every week. I wonder how many current 6e players are playing it not because it is their favorite edition but just because it is the current one. I guess a similar question on the other side would be how many players playing older editions never gave the current one a shot, or just aren't playing it because not enough material has been created for it yet.
See, for me, I have never really used any of the published adventures :P
Yes, I have them and have read them, but they are never a good fit to the group that players have created for various reasons. So, I have often had to rely on creating my own adventures, some times right on the fly, for my table. And after years of doing so, I have gotten pretty good at it..
So, for me and GMs like me, The Edition changes that happen are more or less just a chance to try something new, and see if we like and enjoy the new meta...
Often times, we stick to the new material just for ease... But if something really upsets us, we can just revert back to an older edition and continue on. And for Shadowrun, where the plot is mostly meta, the rules under which the "world plot" advances doesn't matter... IF "world plot" even matters to your table....
Plot often is the first casualty of contact with Players..
If I had the energy I'd make my own. I have a sleep disorder and most nights watching TV takes too much energy.