[pixiesunbelle]

Oh no, I'm just incredibly frustrated. I'm used to the hard set of rules that Pathfinder and DnD 3.5 where everything is stated very clearly.  I don't know what Mission games are....

Our GM told us, "go make shadowrun characters"....

I know what you mean

Try to get as much positive qualities as you need during chargen, as their cost doubles during play. Attributes, skills, spells, initiations all maintain the same costs. Also during play you can try to make an ordeal during initiation to lower the cost. Joining a magical group early can be a good long-term investment, to save karma, especially when you can combine it with ordeals and/or academic schooling.

I just found that out. Originally I wanted to Initiate off the bat with at least one grade. I cannot seem to find anything in the book that forbids it or anything from an actual developer as people have claimed. My GM probably won't forbid it if I cannot find anything concrete though.

He knows the rules about as well as I do, honestly. My entire group is new to the game which is why I've been asking questions here.

[Darzil]

I'm just looking for rules I can look for in the book or written by someone who developed the game. That's it.

There are no official rulings, other than the Corebooks and Errata. There are some people who were involved in various roles with development who have made unofficial posts. Namikaze lists them. What you are searching for does not exist.

However, there are no costs available for Initiation during Character Generation. Those references I can find point towards it being post character generation, but unclearly enough that a GM call could be made either way to suit their table. If creating a character you wanted to play outside that table, at a Missions event, take the Missions rule, which is effectively House Rules for Missions. I don't plan to play at that, so I look at those only to decide my own House Rules when I start GMing.

Things I found in the rulebook that point to post Character Gen :

METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES Core pg 66 : "With Exceptional Attribute, you can end up with a maximum Magic or Resonance rating of 7 when starting the game (before initiation or submersion)."

I take that to mean starting the game happens before initiation.

MAGIC Core pg 278 : "Magic has a starting value from 1 to 6 (or 7 with the Exceptional Attribute quality), but you don’t have to settle for that limit forever. You can go through a process called Initiation (p. 324) that can enhance your abilities."

I take that to mean you are limited to 6 (or 7) at Character generation (starting value), but you can later Initiate.

POWER POINTS, Core pg 278/9 : "At character creation, adepts receive Power Points equal to their Magic attribute, while mystic adepts have to buy Power Points with Karma. Subsequently, Power Points can come in two ways. If you’re an adept, you get a free Power Point whenever you increase your Magic attribute (though this doesn’t apply to mystic adepts), and you can gain a Power Point through Initiation (p. 324) instead of gaining a metamagic"

I take that to mean you have Power Points equal to Magic attribute at Character generation, but can later initiate.

There is a Karma cost for Initiation in Character Advancement (pg 107), but it is greater than the maximum 7 you can spend in this area during Character Generation (pg 98).

I state again, though, there is nothing that states it may not be taken during Character Generation, and nothing that says it may. Your GM's ruling, whatever it is, is final.

[pixiesunbelle]

GM made no ruling (he hasn't responded to my question at all), he's just as new to the game as I am which was why I was looking for a rule to begin with. Thanks for that clarification. I take that to mean it's a GM preference. No actual rule against it means my GM is likely to approve when he gets around to reading everything.

[Darzil]

I'm not going to cite this one, but my impression is that Shadowrun (and any other RPG I've ever read) isn't very big on "you cannot" rules, it tends to only have "you can" rules. Your GM may be allowing a lot . . .

[Shaidar]

That which is not explicitly allowed is forbidden. I find this is the best course to take with RPGs.

CREATING A SHADOWRUNNER 62
STEP ONE: CHOOSE CONCEPT 62
STEP TWO: CHOOSE METATYPE 65
Metatype & Special Attributes 65
Mental and Physical Attributes 66
STEP THREE: CHOOSE MAGIC OR RESONANCE 68
STEP FOUR: PURCHASE QUALITIES 71
POSITIVE QUALITIES 71
NEGATIVE QUALITIES 77
STEP FIVE: PURCHASE SKILLS 88
What the Numbers Mean 88
Restricted Skills 89
Knowledge and Language Skills 89
STEP SIX: SPEND YOUR RESOURCES 94
Cyberware and Bioware 94
Lifestyle 95
Starting Nuyen 95
STEP SEVEN: SPENDING YOUR LEFTOVER KARMA 98
Contacts 98
STEP EIGHT: FINAL CALCULATIONS 100
STEP NINE: FINAL TOUCHES 103

So, if it isn't listed in those pages then you can't do it.

[Lighthouse]

I house rule it to allow initiation during character generation but won't allow your magic/resonance to be increased above seven for balance reasons

[pixiesunbelle]

I house rule it to allow initiation during character generation but won't allow your magic/resonance to be increased above seven for balance reasons

Oh yeah I wasn't going to raise it. I didn't have enough karma. It's 30 karma to raise it to 7... we get 25 to spend. Mostly what I wanted it for was the Centering ability. I decided against it after learning that Positive Qualities double in cost after character generation. I was trying to figure out where it says you cannot initiate at character generation but it seems to be a GM preference and once he goes over the rules he'll probably ask me about it since I brought it up.

[All4BigGuns]

Imagine an Aspected Conjuror starting the game off already knowing Channeling. That dude is probably going to kick the crap out of just about anyone--likely including experienced characters that have already gained around 200 to 300 Karma.

[pixiesunbelle]

Imagine an Aspected Conjuror starting the game off already knowing Channeling. That dude is probably going to kick the crap out of just about anyone--likely including experienced characters that have already gained around 200 to 300 Karma.

With Centering and one more dice to Initiative? You pay 30 karma extra to raise Magic to 7 and start with 25.

[All4BigGuns]

I said Channeling, not Centering. That Aspected Conjuror is starting off with a much more efficient means of buffing EVERY physical attribute along with gaining a slew of other stuff from channeling a spirit. Not to mention that he could have a second spirit on standby to cast and sustain a maxed out Increase Reflexes on himself. All in all, he's kicking the dog poo out of a 200 Karma Street Sam already.

[8-bit]

I said Channeling, not Centering. That Aspected Conjuror is starting off with a much more efficient means of buffing EVERY physical attribute along with gaining a slew of other stuff from channeling a spirit. Not to mention that he could have a second spirit on standby to cast and sustain a maxed out Increase Reflexes on himself. All in all, he's kicking the dog poo out of a 200 Karma Street Sam already.

How are you getting Increase Reflexes as an Aspected Conjurer? Besides, a straight up Magician, or even a Mystic Adept, would do much better. They get spells and can get more dice on Summoning/Binding.

[All4BigGuns]

I said Channeling, not Centering. That Aspected Conjuror is starting off with a much more efficient means of buffing EVERY physical attribute along with gaining a slew of other stuff from channeling a spirit. Not to mention that he could have a second spirit on standby to cast and sustain a maxed out Increase Reflexes on himself. All in all, he's kicking the dog poo out of a 200 Karma Street Sam already.

How are you getting Increase Reflexes as an Aspected Conjurer? Besides, a straight up Magician, or even a Mystic Adept, would do much better. They get spells and can get more dice on Summoning/Binding.

Simple, conjure a spirit that does have spellcasting ability and use only two services to have it cast and sustain the spell on you. If that Aspected Conjuror can initiate in generation, then his need for fewer skills for magic leaves room for more mundane means of combat, and using the channeled spirit to 'buff' physical attributes gives him the advantage.

As a result, Initiation at generation immediately shifts a slightly weaker character type to one that can kick just about any other in the jimmies.

[8-bit]

I said Channeling, not Centering. That Aspected Conjuror is starting off with a much more efficient means of buffing EVERY physical attribute along with gaining a slew of other stuff from channeling a spirit. Not to mention that he could have a second spirit on standby to cast and sustain a maxed out Increase Reflexes on himself. All in all, he's kicking the dog poo out of a 200 Karma Street Sam already.

How are you getting Increase Reflexes as an Aspected Conjurer? Besides, a straight up Magician, or even a Mystic Adept, would do much better. They get spells and can get more dice on Summoning/Binding.

Simple, conjure a spirit that does have spellcasting ability and use only two services to have it cast and sustain the spell on you. If that Aspected Conjuror can initiate in generation, then his need for fewer skills for magic leaves room for more mundane means of combat, and using the channeled spirit to 'buff' physical attributes gives him the advantage.

As a result, Initiation at generation immediately shifts a slightly weaker character type to one that can kick just about any other in the jimmies.

Not at all simple. Not a single spirit has the Increase Reflexes spell. The Optional Power of Innate Spell requires the summoner to know the spell. Since an Aspected Conjurer does not know any spells, the spirit cannot obtain it. They don't pick spells out of the aether to learn.

[All4BigGuns]

I said Channeling, not Centering. That Aspected Conjuror is starting off with a much more efficient means of buffing EVERY physical attribute along with gaining a slew of other stuff from channeling a spirit. Not to mention that he could have a second spirit on standby to cast and sustain a maxed out Increase Reflexes on himself. All in all, he's kicking the dog poo out of a 200 Karma Street Sam already.

How are you getting Increase Reflexes as an Aspected Conjurer? Besides, a straight up Magician, or even a Mystic Adept, would do much better. They get spells and can get more dice on Summoning/Binding.

Simple, conjure a spirit that does have spellcasting ability and use only two services to have it cast and sustain the spell on you. If that Aspected Conjuror can initiate in generation, then his need for fewer skills for magic leaves room for more mundane means of combat, and using the channeled spirit to 'buff' physical attributes gives him the advantage.

As a result, Initiation at generation immediately shifts a slightly weaker character type to one that can kick just about any other in the jimmies.

Not at all simple. Not a single spirit has the Increase Reflexes spell. The Optional Power of Innate Spell requires the summoner to know the spell. Since an Aspected Conjurer does not know any spells, the spirit cannot obtain it. They don't pick spells out of the aether to learn.

No spells are listed on any of the spirits listed on page 303 and 304 of the core rulebook, not even the spellcasting one. That lends itself to being that when you summon a spirit that can cast, you summon a spirit that can cast the spell you're looking for.

However, on the other hand, if you use your logic, then the Spellcasting skill on the Spirit of Man in the aforementioned book is completely worthless as it knows zero spells.

[8-bit]

Hmm, interesting. I just looked up Innate Spell again, and it appears you are right. I always thought you pulled from the summoner's spell list, but apparently it can be any spell. Curiouser and curiouser.

Seems you are correct. That makes it a very good trick.