Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Nightmare on <03-09-16/1420:02>

Title: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Nightmare on <03-09-16/1420:02>
Okay, at the end of Lockdown we have what is supposedly the Big E reborn in Salem, right?  Then why do I have a feeling that it's not E in control of that body but...wait for it...the big Deus?  My potential proof goes to this:  when the dragon reawakens in Salem (after the Children of the Dragon save him) it asks for those around it to worship him.  That's something Deus would say, not Eilhonen.  Then in Market Panic, Miles Lanier expresses his lament and sorrow for Celeydr's loss of Elihonen and that what came back was something far worse. 

Just take a second to think of that...what's worse than Elihonen?

Deus the Dragon!!!
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: DeathStrobe on <03-09-16/1616:01>
Yes...?

I mean that's what Lockdown did pretty much implied. Odds are it's going to be Cereus, which is the combo of Cerberus and Deus. And I just realized that Cereus is the first 3 letters of Cerberus and the last 3 letters of Deus. And it's also a type of cactus.

One of the odd things is that Market Panic says Celedyr is in Wales now, which how he got out of the QZ seems a bit strange. I mean, sure on one hand he's a Great Dragon, but on the other hand Lockdown does say that no one is allowed in or out. Also Damon is MIA still.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Nightmare on <03-09-16/1628:32>
Yes...?

I mean that's what Lockdown did pretty much implied. Odds are it's going to be Cereus, which is the combo of Cerberus and Deus. And I just realized that Cereus is the first 3 letters of Cerberus and the last 3 letters of Deus. And it's also a type of cactus.

One of the odd things is that Market Panic says Celedyr is in Wales now, which how he got out of the QZ seems a bit strange. I mean, sure on one hand he's a Great Dragon, but on the other hand Lockdown does say that no one is allowed in or out. Also Damon is MIA still.

In Market Panic it's mentioned that Damon is wandering around Boston as if he's looking for something.  Not sure hwat or if it's still 100% Damon up there but that's what's mentioned.  As for Celedyr getting out...well, he is both a great dragon and someone who is partically in charge of a Big Ten corp...so getting out is easier...
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Beta on <03-09-16/1632:03>

One of the odd things is that Market Panic says Celedyr is in Wales now, which how he got out of the QZ seems a bit strange. I mean, sure on one hand he's a Great Dragon, but on the other hand Lockdown does say that no one is allowed in or out. Also Damon is MIA still.

I'm pretty sure a Great Dragon would

a) not consider the rules to apply in their case, and
b) be more than capable of duping all of the security measures designed to keep people in.  I mean really, who is going to see through a Great Dragon's illusion spells?

(for that matter, in my campaign the player characters ended up working with Ash for all of them to get out.  Even a normal dragon has magic that is pretty hard to beat, but even a dragon can use some extra spells and spirit cover)
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Nightmare on <03-09-16/1724:28>
Edit: I meant Lockdown instead of Market Panic concerning Damon's wandering.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: PiXeL01 on <03-09-16/1737:33>
A standard dragon would have problems breaking out since I get the feeling the quarantine is even stricter than Chicago was, while a Great would simply stroll through.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-09-16/1749:23>
Celedyr does not need to be a dragon to get out of the Lockdown, he needs approval from the megas running the lockdown - and he is on the board of one of them.

Also, the fact that Damon hangs in Salem is more/less confirms by the ending of Shadowrun Chronicles : Infected, where your fixer, Smedley (aka Boom) tells you he is in contact with Damon, and eludes to the fact that some run might be coming your way because of that. As far as I understood the next chapter of the game was supposed to be set in Salem...

(however, the recent update only introduced repeatable mission, but it may be Salem is the next step...)
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Lorebane24 on <03-10-16/0037:44>
I thought that Eliohan was essentially comatose again, somewhere in Salem, though I cannot now for the life of me remember why or how I got this impression.  My party is working for Damon right now (but they don't know it yet), and are eventually going to have to decide what to do with Eliohan (once they find him).  What personality is he going to wake up with?  Are they willing to chance letting him wake up at all?
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-10-16/0721:15>
I had a thread here in the forum a while back about that. The sad thing is that we just don't know enought at this stage what is happening in Salem. We know Eliohann crashed over there after leaving Fenway, and we know from DJ story that there are some free spirit and wicca runnig / protecting the place...  (not read Market Panic yet, so also add anything we know from there)

That is basically it. You may have got the impression Eliohann is asleep again because it read like he just "crashed" in Salem more than anything else. However, with the Wicca and Damon being pal with them, anything possible...

I suspect that until the next (unplanned) chapter of Shadowrun Chronicles (video game) is out, we won't know more. If anybody at either Catalist or on Chronicles could give us a hint of what is going to happen, that would help...
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Nightmare on <03-11-16/1329:54>
This is what happened to Eliohann...taken from pg 149 of Lockdown:

[spoiler]
Quote

The saviors of Salem are not the witches, though they helped. The true saviors of Salem were the Children of the Dragon, as it had been seen. A child laying the dragon low. The battle occurred south of town, though tales say it was not much of a battle. As the iridescent beast flew north, the witches sought to stop it, but their petty arguments over Damon had severed their coven so greatly they could not draw the power to challenge the dragon. But the Children were fueled by the twisting of the mana, fueled by what others saw as Damon’s corruption. The dragon had not doomed them as they thought, but saved them.

Spells and spirits flew to the approaching Eliohann. The iridescent plague was rent from his skin. The mad malice could not be calmed from his mind, so his mind was pulled to its brink and beyond. The malachite beast crashed into Quarry Lake. The Children held vigil beside the steep sides of the lake and waited for the beast to rise again. They waited for the spirit to take hold of the vessel they had brought down and the light of Dunkelzahn to return to the world. The witches, unified in terror and fear, began to divide again. Some pushed to send the Children away, fueled by anger at being saved in their own land. Others saw the Children as their saviors, as hope and light personified. They sought to join the Dragon Worshippers and were welcomed with open arms. A third group thanked the Children for their actions and simply held to the Wiccan way—the course of nature, the power of the light, and the rule of three. Damon slipped from their minds, replaced by a new dragon to worry them.

The core group of believers waited by the waters for three days and nights. Their chanting was said to never waver, never cease, and in the end the dragon rose from the waters and came into their ranks. It spoke to their minds, a tale none would speak to me, but they went with it into the heart of Salem and declared their demands. They sought rights to the lands north of the sacred lake, the forest and wilds, a small section of homes, and the local high school.

Standing before a dragon and his worshippers, at the focus of a ley line of great power aligned to them and fueling their abilities, The witches had no choice but to relent. The dragon went from them, the Children thanked them, and the quiet truce of Salem was struck. A truce held in trust by the parties who made it but ignored by those who came after.
[/spoiler]

So you can see, the big E is upright and meandering around in Salem..with a ley line attributed to dragons and a load of Children of the Dragon thinking he's the Big D reborn.

As for what Damon is up to in Boston after the lockdown, from pg 129 of Lockdown, as told to AJ via a guy named Flake:

[spoiler]
Quote
“Yeah, Damon came to town. He’s been doing the whole\ wandering-monk thing. Kinda like you, but less nosy. I talked with
him a lot since Sakuri didn’t trust him and wanted my opinion. He said a lot of things and apologized for the actions of his dragonkin
but wouldn’t give details as to what’s going on. I don’t think he actually knows. Warned us to stay away from Salem and MIT&T...Actually, Damon had a following. They kept their distance, and I think most of them stayed out of sight to not spook us, but I
saw them join up with him on his way south."
[/spoiler]

Sounds to me like Damon feels used by Celeydr and Eliohann....

As for Cereius being in control of Eliohann's body, I don't think so because of this (from pg 213 of Lockdown):

[spoiler]
Quote
A creation full of the purest hatred for both of its parents, this creature wants nothing short of the destruction of both parents in every form and place. From the annihilation of the head cases in Boston to the death of Eliohann, it wants nothing left of the codes that spawned it and has no care for its brothers and sisters beyond its ability to use them before discarding their deleted husks
[/spoiler]

From that I get the feeling that if Cereius were to find itself within Eliohann's body, it would do everything to destroy that body...not live in it.

And here's the thing Miles Lanier said in Market Panic that got me thinking this is Deus or something like it, in a dragon body (pg 125 Market Panic):

[spoiler]
Quote
I have had no other place to put this, so it will go here and I will simply hope that he finds my sentiment here
someday. Celedyr, I am sorry for your loss. Eliohann was in his day a bright star in the gloomy murk of draconic society. I truly hope that the end result of your efforts is as you intended. You had the best of intentions. I have already felt the loss of Cerberus in my efforts but hope that the mind and body can once again unite and glow like a supernova. That said I also apologize for any part I may need to take in assuring that an abomination of the worst sort does not find its way out of the Boston quarantine. You and I both know there are worse things within those walls than the hordes of raging head cases. If you get this message and desire to contact me, the Soulkeeper knows how to find me. Sincerely, Miles
[/spoiler]

That's what makes me think that whatever is driving around that dragon's body..it might not be Eliohann....
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Mirikon on <03-11-16/1405:22>
You know, if Deus got Eliohann's body completely, and not as Cereus, that would make for a lot of interesting plots. Does anyone know how far Eliohann was from becoming a Great Dragon? What happens if Deus's new body gets the big upgrade?
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Nightmare on <03-11-16/1437:30>
You know, if Deus got Eliohann's body completely, and not as Cereus, that would make for a lot of interesting plots. Does anyone know how far Eliohann was from becoming a Great Dragon? What happens if Deus's new body gets the big upgrade?

I'm not sure about how far Eliohann was to becoming a Great...would think a bit further along than Damon but not as far as Masuras was when he first showed up.  Am thinking halfway maybe?  Depends on if the time he was an e-ghost counts or not.

As for the upgrade...I'd think that who ever was in control of the nanites would od a little upgrading.  Would be interesting to see for sure.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Lorebane24 on <03-12-16/0155:32>
Deus in a great dragon's body would frighten me a hell of a lot less than Deus getting back into the matrix and upgrading itself.  If it's inhabiting Eliohan's body, it is in a singular form.  You kill it and it's gone - and I cannot imagine a scenario in which every other great dragon doesn't rise up to thoroughly trash some rogue AI with the gall to use a dragon's body as a puppet.

But if the old Deus made its return, and on a wireless matrix?  That's scary as hell.  I got the impression that the old AIs were basically the great dragons of the matrix.  They don't have stats because they don't need them.  If you fight them, you lose.  Now it would certainly take time for it to get used to the new matrix protocols, but probably not that much, and once that happens, imagine how much ground it could cover and how mobile it would become, and what sort of havoc it could wreak.  I know it's mostly concerned with its own survival, but how long before GOD comes after it with a vengeance and Deus decides that all of mankind is a threat to its continued existence?
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-12-16/0437:46>
Deus being merged into Eliohann does NOT exclude him for the matrix - remember that Eliohann is the only dragon with a working datajack. Also, if Cereus is in a dragon shape, it is also made up of nanites, so we could imagining it able to flee to the 'trix or maybe even rebuild a badly dommage dragon body...
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Mirikon on <03-12-16/1737:41>
Deus being merged into Eliohann does NOT exclude him for the matrix - remember that Eliohann is the only dragon with a working datajack. Also, if Cereus is in a dragon shape, it is also made up of nanites, so we could imagining it able to flee to the 'trix or maybe even rebuild a badly dommage dragon body...
Exactly. The last time Deus was active, AIs had little power outside the matrix, unless they were working with a setting like the SCIRE, where all the drones, defenses, and everything else in the building were connected to the system. Now picture an AI with the capabilities of the Big 3, but with the added ability to affect the real (and astral) worlds with all the power of a dragon.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Beta on <03-12-16/1923:36>
Except, wasn't part of the point of the wireless matrix supposed to be to limit any future AI?  The noise should make dispersed computing near impossible, and limit how far from its physical location an AI could be very influential?   At least that was what I thought the new architecture was supposed to do.....or did I misunderstand?
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Mirikon on <03-12-16/2050:51>
Nope, the wireless matrix was designed to make the grid more resilient from attacks in general. Think about it this way. With telephone lines today, you take out a wire, and you can cut off an entire building's communications. Take out a couple poles, and you can cut off an entire town. The Wired matrix was the same principle. With wireless, now as long as someone within signal range of your commlink has a connection to the matrix at large, you have a connection to the matrix at large, making it far harder for the entire grid to be taken offline, unless you're in dead zones (like parts of the Barrens, or out in the wild). Remember, the Wireless Matrix Initiative was being drawn up before Deus's existence was even known to the corporate types at large. They had a good five years or more working on the tech before implementation started going up just after Crash 2.0, where people saw how vulnerable the wired matrix was.

The reduction in power newer AIs have seems to be based on the fact that they're no longer 'born' in massive server farms that serves the main computing needs for the North American HQ of the megacorp best known for software, but can wake up in, say, a drone or your toaster.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Lorebane24 on <03-13-16/0052:22>
Yes, but wouldn't it still be bound by the limits of Eliohans brain (great as they may be)?  And wouldn't it still be tethered to a physical form while jacked in?  I'd imagine that though die pools would remain high, it would still be bound by the same rules that apply runners.  It could rig the shit out of a drone, but could still only directly control a single drone at a time.  It still has to apply marks and whatnot, and contend with GOD.  I believe that a completely untethered Deus, with the power it used to possess, would give a GM plausible license to totally rewrite the way it interacts with the matrix.  I envision it directly controlling dozens of drones at once, ripping through host defenses and taking control of all slaved devices in a matter of a couple of rounds, that sort of shit.  I'm playing with an arc right now where this could become a reality if the PCs don't get wise fast.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-13-16/0134:26>
I've been reading the rule for AI yesterday and honestly the make it pretty painful to be an AI "on the grid". Even for a powerful AI like Deus. The way the rule are writtin in Data Trails makes me agrees with Beta, the new protocol makes it shitty for an AI to be on the run - actually makes it easy for the AI to quickly moved from being on the run to captured. (unless it has a SIN). Honestly, reading this section really made me understand why the CFD and the willingness of some AI to flee the matrix...

However, those rules also states that if the AI is "homed" to a device - and one could argue that a dragon body filled with nanites is a device, AI really catches a break. And more/less the more powerful the device, the better.... Could anyone find a better 'deck as Eliohann body ? :)
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: Lorebane24 on <03-13-16/0328:40>
Right, but would those same rules necessarily apply if you could find a way to get something resembling one of the old AIs?
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-13-16/0337:43>
Well, the way the rules are described is not really because of the nature of AI changed but more because of how the Matrix works now. It really does sounds more like part of the design of the new protocol was clearly aims at limiting the power of AI, and even makes their capture easier.

One could definitely argue that a IA such as Deus might be able to go around those designs (and rules), but it does seems to me that like most AIs wants to get out of the trix (head case) or at least be home into a device they do control.
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-13-16/0606:28>
The Eliohann of Dragon Hunt was barely an adult; he'd have a long, long way to go before making the jump to Great
Title: Re: That Salem Dragon - psb spoilers
Post by: belaran on <03-25-16/1238:06>
Even a "baby" dragon with Deus persona in it makes a powerful opponent and an interesting plot point for Shadowrun. I hope we'll get an update soon on what is happening in Salem (maybe an extension to Shadowrun: Chronicles on Salem, as it was discussed originaly).