[ambarmetta]

I just hope these kinds of ambiguities are addressed...it's bad enough that the preorders (for me at any rate) were not well communicated (shipping wise)...it's worse that i"m paying for what will probably end up being irrelevant.

Someone really needs to get that Errata page up and running.

(admittedly this is offtopic, but it's arguments like these that make me despair)

[ZeConster]

You can't break +4 even if only one enhancement use the rule though. But this let us reach +4 with a combination of tech and magic.

With physical and mental attributes, yes, but with Initiative, this is not exactly the case.

each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4.

Since Initiative isn't a Physical or Mental attribute (instead it's derived from a Physical and a Mental attribute), I don't think the +4 limit applies to it. This leaves two truck-sized holes in the "+4 max" rule when it comes to Initiative: if both Reaction and Intution are augmented, you basically add the augmented bonuses together to get your augmented Initiative (example: Rea 5(9), Int 4(8) --> Ini 9(17)); and since Increase Reflexes doesn't cap the Initiative bonus, only your Initiative Dice (at 5D6), there's not really a limit (if you use Edge to Push the Limit, anyway, otherwise it's the spell's Force) to how much of a boost Increase Reflexes can give to your Initiative.



ambarmetta: while I admit there's some really annoying ambiguities, I'm more concerned about the rules apparently allowing Wired Reflexes and Increase Reflexes to stack (since bioware is supposed to be superior to cyberware, this seems incredibly unfair) than I am about people interpreting the "Initiative" references in such a way that Adrenaline Boost becomes 99% worthless.

[Crunch]

I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.

[ambarmetta]

@ZeConster:

I understand your concerns, actually, and same with Crunch's...I just want some clear responses as to what they were intending, then we can go ahead and say "this is how we wanna house rule it."  My GM is already unimpressed by the implementation of 5th Edition, and errata that would clear up the numerous inconsistencies would help. 

Back on topic, I will have to take a look myself at RAW here.  Followed the thread up to this point, though.

[Xenon]

With physical and mental attributes, yes, but with Initiative, this is not exactly the case.

Yes. The limit only apply to augmentations (cyberware and bioware) and only apply to physical and mental attributes. There are also specific spells and adept powers that also fall under the same +4 limit that augmentations use, they all explicit mention when this is the case.

It does not seem as if the reaction bonus to improved reflexes adept power or drugs fall under the +4 limit that augmentations use since they are not augmentations and they don't explicit mention the limit...

What I meant was that you still can't for example get +5 reaction if you combine increase attribute reaction with 3 hits and improved reflexes 2 adept power (in this case increase attribute reaction spell will get a forced limit to a +2 reaction increase and you would end up with a +4 increase to reaction).

I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.

The bonus to initiative that you can activate every combat turn with a free action also stack with initiative bonus from reaction enhancers augmentation, wired reflexes augmentation, adrenaline pump augmentation, suprathyroid gland augmentation, increase reflexes spell, increase reaction spell, increase intuition spell, improved physical attribute reaction power, cram drug, jazz drug and kamikaze drug...


...actually, the only two enhancers that adrenaline boost is incompatible with is synaptic booster augmentation and improved reflexes power (sure, they are common - but not sure I agree the two make adrenaline boost 99% useless?)

Also, if you have 1.5 PP worth of adrenaline boost you will can still use it to improve your initiative when you activate it even if you have synaptic booster augmentation or improved reflexes power (if you rolled bad on your initiative dice - on rank 1 it will always improve your initiative even if you rolled 6 on your extra initiative dice, on rank 2 as long as you roll 9 or less on your two extra initiative dice and even on rank 3 as long as you roll 8 or less on your three extra initiative dice). It is not compatible so it does not stack, but being incompatible does not mean you can't activate both powers at once. You just need to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.

(if incompatibility have the same meaning for spells as it does for augmentations;))

[ZeConster]

I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.

Well, its worthlessness under your interpretation depends on a few factors, I guess:

• Mystic Adept, Adept with Wired Reflexes or loose-incompatibility-rules 'ware, Adept using drugs, or Adept with a spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: decently useful
• Non-augmented Adept with no drugs or spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless
• (JUST REALIZED THIS) As above, but you're not surprised: useful
• As above, but Adrenaline Boost isn't errata'd, meaning you can use it to get +10 to your Initiative Score and soak 5S Drain X times instead of (5*X)S Drain: useful

In the second, third and fourth case, since your interpretation means Adrenaline Boost is incompatible with Improved Reflexes, even though you can get +12 to your Initiative Score, you need to take a Free Action to activate it (annnd I just realized you can take a Free Action even before your first turn if you're not surprised, so you can use Adrenaline Boost when whoever goes first takes their turn - if you're Surprised, though, getting an extra Initiative Pass is a small comfort when most people get a chance to attack you before you can use the power).
So as I just now realized, it's still useful (although if you want to use Adrenaline Boost, you'll have to resort to drugs, 'ware or magical support, or accept never being able to go first in a combat turn) - however, its incompatibility with Improved Reflexes under your interpretation is still a massive kick in the teeth of non-augmented Adepts, since they have to choose between Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes, when augmented Adepts can use Wired Reflexes and Mystic Adepts can cast Increase Reflexes on themselves.



On a semi-related note: could you please stop using "Initiative" to refer to the [Initiative Score]?[/list]

[Xenon]

...spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless

How is bonus to initiative score worthless for a spellcaster sustaining increase reflexes spell on them?

Increase Reflexes spell is compatible with further increase to Initiative.
Adrenaline Boost power is compatible with further increase to Initiative.

Pure win.

(it is also win when used by an adept as long as the adept is not using a [high] rank improved reflexes adept power)



I don't think you get any further benefit for activating adrenaline boost more than once during the same combat turn since it give you "+2 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have". If you activate it twice you still only get "+2 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have" and not  "+4 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have".

[Crunch]

I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.

Well, its worthlessness under your interpretation depends on a few factors, I guess:

• Mystic Adept, Adept with Wired Reflexes or loose-incompatibility-rules 'ware, Adept using drugs, or Adept with a spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: decently useful
• Non-augmented Adept with no drugs or spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless
• (JUST REALIZED THIS) As above, but you're not surprised: useful
• As above, but Adrenaline Boost isn't errata'd, meaning you can use it to get +10 to your Initiative Score and soak 5S Drain X times instead of (5*X)S Drain: useful

In the second, third and fourth case, since your interpretation means Adrenaline Boost is incompatible with Improved Reflexes, even though you can get +12 to your Initiative Score, you need to take a Free Action to activate it (annnd I just realized you can take a Free Action even before your first turn if you're not surprised, so you can use Adrenaline Boost when whoever goes first takes their turn - if you're Surprised, though, getting an extra Initiative Pass is a small comfort when most people get a chance to attack you before you can use the power).
So as I just now realized, it's still useful (although if you want to use Adrenaline Boost, you'll have to resort to drugs, 'ware or magical support, or accept never being able to go first in a combat turn) - however, its incompatibility with Improved Reflexes under your interpretation is still a massive kick in the teeth of non-augmented Adepts, since they have to choose between Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes, when augmented Adepts can use Wired Reflexes and Mystic Adepts can cast Increase Reflexes on themselves.



On a semi-related note: could you please stop using "Initiative" to refer to the [Initiative Score]?[/list]

If it makes you feel better. Although notably anything that Adds to initiative score also adds to initiative so what I said was correct.

Given that adepts have the best set of anti surprise abilities in the game I'm actually quite fond of Adrenaline boost. The synergy between Combat Sense, Adrenaline Boost and Danger Sense gives adepts an alternative to Improved Reflexes that's quite nice. Improved Reflexes 3 only averages +131/2 to initiative score, level 2 averages +9. Adrenaline Boost is a lot cheaper than either of those options. Adrenaline Boost is more predictable but has drain, Improved Reflexes offers more potential upside but is more expensive and less consistent.

Regardless of compatibility, a given character could very well be better off with Adrenaline Boost 6 and 2 additional PP than with Improved Reflexes 3 for the same cost. That seems a far cry from the hyperbolic 99% useless claim above.

[Xenon]

Yes, it give you a very good alternative to improved reflexes 1 and a good alternative to improved reflexes 2. It is also very predictable so you can calculate in advance how many levels you need and fine tune it during the combat turn with different level qi focus to always get that extra action phase... but the drain stack up a bit too much to make it a viable alternative to improved reflexes 3 (imo).

We should probably also not forget that Improved reflexes also give bonus to reaction (pilot skill dice pool, defense pool against indirect spells, avoiding getting rammed by a vehicle, ranged and melee combat as well more dice to avoid getting hit by suppressive fire).

(improved reflexes 1 is not worth it when compared to PP on adrenaline boost and combat sense instead)

[DigitalZombie]

Nice thread. Would it be possible to list them all in an excel matrix box, colored red and green or whatever?

[Xenon]

Eventually. At this point everyone does not seem convinced what is compatible with what so the most accurate would be to use limitations in the individual descriptions. But you can use the first page to look at one attribute and see the limitation text on all enhancements that affect that attribute at once... so you can make your own judgement at your own table if they are compatible incompatible with each other.

[Xenon]

updated post #2 to reflect that initiative dice are "physical" and does not work for "astral" or "cold- or hot-sim VR matrix" initiative.