Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xenon on <09-10-13/0320:45>
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Hoi
I plan to use this thread to compile a complete list of which magic / adept power / cyberware / bioware augmentation/enhancement/boost that stack - and how if they only stack in part - and what they are incompatible with.
I imagine there will be a lot of rule interpretations and word twisting, but hopefully we can get to some sort of consensus on the matter.
First a few definitions from the book so we are all on the same page.
What the book mean by MAXIMUM INITIATIVE DICE
"...remember that any enhancements or bonuses cannot take you past the maximum of 5D6 Initiative Dice...Edge may be used on this test to roll the maximum of 5D6 for a single Combat Turn...to a maximum of 5D6...and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6."
What the book mean by MAXIMUM AUGMENTATION BONUS
"when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4...but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap"
What the book mean by INCOMPATIBILITY p.421 Incompatibility
"When two items are incompatible—like a shotgun and a laser sight, or wired reflexes and synaptic boosters—you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time."
What the book mean by accessing cyberware and wireless ON p.451 Augmentation
"Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the “moving parts” are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active."
What the book mean by INITIATIVE p.159 Initiative
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."
As usual the book use a lot of different word for the exact same thing which make it confusing when reading the text. They use words such as "increases", "augmentations", "enhancements" and "boosts" which might or might not mean the exact same thing (does a "boost" -that only increase the attribute dice pool but not physical limit- count as an "augmentation"?). They also use phrases like "other technological or magical", "any other form of enhancement" and "augmentations that" which also might or might not mean the exact same thing (can an augmentation come from another source than technological or magical?)
BODY related
Cyberware
Bone lacing Bone lacing is incompatible with other augmentations that add to or alter your bones (such as bone density augmentation).
Bone density augmentation Bone density augmentation is incompatible with other augmentations to the bones, including bone lacing cyberware.
Bioware
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Body Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Oxygenate -
Adept power
Attribute Boost Body - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Body - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Rapid Healing -
Drugs
Kamikaze -
AGILITY related
Cyberware
Muscle replacement It cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles, including muscle augmentation or muscle toner bioware.
Cyberlimbs Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings...These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Muscle toner This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Agility, including the muscle replacements cyberware.
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Agility Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Agility - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Agility - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Light body -
Drugs
Kamikaze -
REACTION related
Cyberware
Reaction enhancers Reaction enhancers are incompatible with all other enhancements to Reaction, including wired reflexes. Wireless: Reaction enhancers are compatible with a wireless wired reflexes system, and the total bonus Reaction from the two augmentations can be above +4 if both systems have wireless activated.
Wired reflexes Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative. Wireless: The system is compatible with wireless reaction enhancers, and the total Reaction bonus from both systems can be above +4 if both systems have wireless active.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Suprathyroid gland -
Synaptic booster The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
Spells
Increase Reaction Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Reaction - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Reaction - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Improved reflexes -
Drugs
Cram -
Jazz -
Novacoke -
STRENGTH related
Cyberware
Muscle replacement It cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles, including muscle augmentation or muscle toner bioware.
Cyberlimbs Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings...These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Muscle augmentation This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Strength, including the muscle replacements cyberware.
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Strength Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Strength - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Strength - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Drugs
Kamikaze -
Nitro -
WILLPOWER related
Cyberware
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Pain editor -
Spells
Increase Willpower Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Deepweed -
Kamikaze -
Nitro -
Zen -
LOGIC related
Cyberware
Bioware
Cerebral booster -
Spells
Increase Logic Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Psyche -
INTUITION related
Cyberware
Bioware
Spells
Increase Intuition Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Psyche -
CHARISMA related
Cyberware
Bioware
Tailored pheromones only when the person you’re using them on is within a comfortable conversation range—if they can’t smell you, the pheromones don’t work.
Spells
Increase Charisma Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Novacoke -
INITIATIVE related
Cyberware
Reaction enhancers -
Wired reflexes Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative. Wireless The system is compatible with wireless reaction enhancers, and the total Reaction bonus from both systems can be above +4 if both systems have wireless active.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Suprathyroid gland -
Synaptic booster The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
Spells
Increase ReflexesA character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.
Increase Reaction Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.
Increase Intuition Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.
Adept power
Improved physical attribute Reaction -
Improved reflexes the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative... to a maximum of 5D6.
Adrenaline boost -
Drugs
Cram -
Jazz -
Kamikaze -
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There are seven ways of getting initiative dice. Spell (Increase Reflexes), Adept power (Improved Reflexes), Cyberware (Wired Reflexes), Bioware (Synaptic Boosters), drugs (Cram, Jazz and Kamikaze), Astral (Astral Projection) and Matrix (cold-sim VR and hot-sim VR).
Cold-sim VR give you +3d6 initiative dice (and hot-sim VR give you +4d6 initiative dice) instead of your [physical] +1d6 initiative dice. It does not seem to be an enhancement of +2d6 (or +3d6) to your existing +1d6 but rather a replacement of your [physical] initiative dice with your matrix initiative dice. In a similar manner Cold-sim replace your reaction attribute with your current Data Processing attribute for the purpose of calculating your Initiative Attribute.
Enhancements to initiative dice is "meat" or AR initiative dice and not astral or VR matrix initiative dice. You can still enhance astral and VR initiative but only with boosts to intuition.
Spells, such as Increase [attribute] and Increase Reflexes are compatible with everything that does not explicit state it is incompatible with the enhancement. They are also incompatible with another application of the same spell. 8 hits can potentially give you the maximum total of 5d6. The spell is also compatible with drugs that grant initiative dice; such as Cram, Jazz and Kamikaze.
Improved reflexes adept power is compatible with other reaction enhancements that does not explicit state it is incompatible with reaction enhancements. You can get up to +3d6 bonus initiative dice from this ability. But Improved reflexes is incompatible with magical or technological increases to initiative (but that might or might not mean it is compatible with drugs - which if it is compatible would let you reach the maximum total of 5d6). I read this as it is incompatible with reaction enhancements (and intuition) for the purpose of calculating the initiative attribute which is part of initiative (which also means it is incompatible with enhancements to initiative dice and initiative score which are the other two parts of initiative according to the definition of initiative), but compatible with reaction enhancements for the purpose of calculating reaction dice pools such as pilot skills and reaction+intuition defense tests.
Wired reflexes cyberware is incompatible with all other reaction and initiative enhancements except reaction enhancers if both are wireless on. This is also the only enhancement combination in the book that let you break the max +4 maximum augmentation bonus. It is compatible with enhancements to intuition for the purpose of calculating your perception pool and reaction+intuition defense tests, but incompatible when it comes to calculating the initiative attribute which is part of initiative.
Synaptic boosters bioware is incompatible with all other reaction and initiative enhancements.
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reserved
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What Initiative is is straight forward, yes. There is however a debate on which of the four different terms are meant when Augmentations talk about being incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, and whether boosts to your Attributes are incompatible with boosts directly to Initiative. You are fully aware of these debates and how often things were written badly, so please don't pretend otherwise. It is one thing to have a clear opinion, it is an entirely different thing to pretend there is no such controversion.
One problem is that when an Augmentation says it's incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, it's unclear what they exactly mean with Initiative. It could be Initiative Dice, Initiative Attribute, multiple combined, who knows? They might just be playing fast and loose there.
For example, if you have Reaction Enhancers 3 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits active, what happens with your stats and your Initiative score? If you have Synaptic Boosters 2 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits, do you get +2 Rea, +4 Int and thus +6+2d6 Initiative, would you only have +2 rea and +2+2d6 Initiative, or would you have R+2, I+4 and +4+2d6 Initiative? Or another combination? Which do the rules mean right now? Which one is intended?
And what exactly happens with Increased Reflexes 8 + Synaptic Boosters 3? Do you still have your +3 Reaction? If you use your +3 Reaction, do you have +3+3d6 Initiative, +8+4d6 Initiative, +11+4d6 Initiative?
Perhaps a new topic where both sides start fresh and post clearly what they think and what the complications are might be a good idea.
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My personal stance, by the way, is that they simply mean not compatible with other sources of Initiative dice, since the attributes only indirectly impact Initiative. I also think Initiative Score is a different matter and as such Adrenaline Boost is compatible. This seems plausible to me since they didn't even mention it wouldn't work well with Improved Reflexes. If a clash was intended between 2 Adept Powers, I would suspect they'd have put some note there.
On the other hand I believe Adrenaline Boost should be limited to 1 use per Combat Turn.
One problem is that when an Augmentation says it's incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, it's unclear what they exactly mean with Initiative.
If they write Initiative I have no reason to believe that they actually mean something else than Initiative.
Initiative is defined at page 159 as:
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."
So according to RAW, when it say incompatible with enhancements to initiative it mean it is incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.
For example, if you have Reaction Enhancers 3 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits active, what happens with your stats and your Initiative score?
Reaction Enhancers are compatible with enhancements to initiative, only incompatible to enhancements to reaction. Increase Intuition is only incompatible with other applications of the same spell. Reaction will increase by 3, intuition will be increased by 4 and the initiative attribute is increased by 7. The effects stack since they are compatible and the initiative attribute is not a mental attribute nor a physical attribute which mean it does not rule under the maximum augmentation bonus of +4.
If you have Synaptic Boosters 2 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits.
Synaptic Boosters are incompatible with enhancements to reaction and initiative. Increase Intuition is only incompatible with other applications of the same spell. Reaction will increase by 2 for the purpose of taking a pilot test. Intuition will increase with 4 for the purpose of taking a perception test. Defense tests will get a bonus of 6 dice. For rolling initiative the player will have to select between Synaptic Boosters and the Intuition spell (according to the definition about incompatibility at p.421). In this case it mean you don't get +4 Initiative from the intuition spell as it is not compatible with the [stronger] +2d6+2 initiative you would get from synaptic boosters. However, if you are in hot-sim VR then you would only benefit +1d6 from synaptic boosters before you hit the maximum initiative dice of 5d6 and initiative attribute is calculated from data processing (instead of reaction) + intuition. In this case you would get +4 from the intuition spell instead.
And what exactly happens with Increased Reflexes 8 + Synaptic Boosters 3?
Increase Reflexes are compatible with everything except the same spell. Synaptic Boosters are not compatible with enhancements to initiative and reaction. According to "p.421 Incompatibility" both of them are incompatible with each other if one is. The same rule also state that you have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
Reaction will increase by 3 from synaptic boosters for the purpose of taking a pilot test. Defense tests will increase by 3 from synaptic boosters. For the purpose of initiative you would get +4d6+4 initiative from the increased reflexes spell since this is stronger than +3d6+3 initiative that you would get from synaptic boosters. They are incompatible and thus enhancements to initiative does not stack.
This is all based on my interpretation on the RAW definition of Initiative (p.159) and the RAW definition of Incompatibility (p.421).
Perhaps a new topic where both sides start fresh and post clearly what they think and what the complications are might be a good idea.
Your bidding is my command Michael :)
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0
edit: fixed a ton of typos
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My problem with "Initiative" being a blanket term and "incompatibility" extending across all possible enhancements is this:
A 10 nuyen piece of gear (Cram, +1 REA and +1d6 initiative, avail 2R, 10 nuyen per dose, can be used for several weeks straight without need for addiction test) just invalidated a 39k cyberware augmentation (Wired Reflexes Rating 1) or a 95k bioware augmentation (Synaptic Boosters Rating 1).
Basically, the ganger my NPC is fighting can take a relatively cheap, available drug and be faster than my vatjob PC? Come on, that's ridiculous... To me, there's no reason why the two shouldn't stack, and that's how we've always played it in my current group.
To my mind, the 'ware incompatibilities were written with other 'ware in mind, not "ALL" sources of enhancements.
The counterargument to the above, if I'm playing my own devil's advocate, is the strong base in the fluff for incompatibility between magic and technology. A mage casting Increased Reflexes on a cybered up street sam would be a classical example where both fluff and rules could provide a good argument for why the two doesn't stack.
However, as a count-counterargument, I've always seen drugs and technology as similar, and so would rule that the effects of either stack with each other, up to the maximum +4 to an attribute (and +5D6 initiative dice) in SR5. Thus, a character could get Synaptic Boosters R3 and use a dose of Cram for the +3d6 and +1d6 enhancements. Otherwise, there's no way for a character to ever get to +4d6 initiative dice using technological means.
Slightly off-topic:
What's with the slight bias against cyberlimbs only ever being able to provide +3 augmentation? It seems like it's impossible to augment a cyberlimb to the same level as a "natural" augmentation like Muscle Toner Rating 4, despite the similarities in cost (cyberlimbs easily being more expensive in both nuyen and essence if all four limbs are replaced). Am I reading something wrong?
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My opinion about Initiative is simple: page 52 describes the [Initiative Attribute], which is Reaction + Intuition. When Improved Reflexes, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters say they increase your Reaction, and this also affects Initiative, they are talking about the [Initiative Attribute]. Therefore, when they say in the next sentence that they're incompatible with "other technological or magical increases to Initiative", "augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative", or "any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement", they are still talking about the [Initiative Attribute]. Therefore, Adrenaline Boost, which gives a direct bonus to your [Initiative Score], is compatible with all of them (although it is a very OP power as currently described and they should either restrict it to once per combat turn, or make the drain add up pre-soak if you use it multiple times in the same combat turn, since you could otherwise give yourself 20+ IPs in one combat turn if you're undamaged with 0 chance of death due to the Stun overflow rules).
As for drugs, I think it depends: Cram and Jazz increase your Reaction (and therefore the [Initiative Attribute]), so it depends on the exact phrasing of the augmentation/power (Improved Reflexes depends on whether drugs count as "technological increases", Wired Reflexes depends on whether drugs count as "augmentations", Synaptic Boosters clearly state it's incompatible), but Kamikaze, which doesn't affect Reaction or Intuition, and only gives you bonus [Initiative Dice], should combine with all of them (though keeping in mind that the highest amount of [Initiative Dice] is 5D6).
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Cyberlimbs are currently (according to Aaron with all the caveats that brings) not governed by the Augmented macimum and thus are THE choice if you want a natural Agility 1 character with a functional Agility of 9. I'm hoping that's not the final call coming out of the Errata. Also Cyberlimbs provide a great benefit to wounds and armor and have other tricks up their sleeve so to speak.
As for Cram. One it's an addictive drug, with all of those drawbacks. Per the text Cram comes with Jitteriness, Paranoia and Irrational Outbursts as side effects. That's non trivial. Two, the Wired Reflexes character will always have the edge if he initiates combat (as the Cram user will then have to take his Cram) and has the option of evading and coming back after the drug has come back. Also Cram can be taken away/confiscated etc.
I'm not going to wade back into this argument except to say that p 159 is pretty clear that Initiative is an overarching concept that includes Initiative Attribute and Initiative Score. If you go check the Augmented Adept in chargen the topic has been pretty thoroughly hashed over.
Slipped by ZeConster.
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Interesting.
martinchaen, i am pretty sure that "cannot be combined with any other form of reaction or initiative enhancement" include spells and drugs as well - not just wired reflexes and reaction enhancement.
ZeConster, the three sentences "other technological or magical increases to Initiative", "augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative" and "any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement"
...can very well mean just what it say "initiative". Initiative attribute is after all, together with initiative score and initiative dice, part of Initiative. If you increase reaction you increase initiative attribute and initiative attribute is part of initiative.
They could have written incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative dice and initiative score... but incompatible with initiative mean the same thing (and is shorter to type).
If the intent was that wired reflexes should be incompatible with other enhancements to initiative score, initiative attribute and initiative dice they could write that it is incompatible with initiative. They did.
If they only meant that is incompatible with enhancements to the initiative attribute (and that it would stack with other enhancements to initiative dice and initiative score) they would need to explicit write initiative attribute. They didn't.
if they only meant that it is incompatible with reaction for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute but compatible with other enhancements to the initiative attribute (such as enhancements to intuition) then they would only need to write that it is incompatible with enhancements to reaction. They didn't.
If they -in addition to being incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice- want the enhancement to be incompatible when using reaction for the purpose of calculating the pilot pool or the pool for taking a defense test; then they also explicit need to write that the enhancement is incompatible with enhancements to reaction (in addition to enhancements to initiative). They did.
ZeConster, do you think there is a difference between boost, enhancement and augmentation?
And if so, what would the difference be?
Crunch, yes i too think that the definition of initiative (which is on p.159) is clear and when the book talk about initiative it is this definition they mean when they type initiative.
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the description explicit state Initiative (which by RAW is defined on p.159 as "Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.") I don't see how you can read it as Initiative Attribute.
Because "Initiative" can also refer to the [Initiative Attribute] (determined by adding your Reaction and Intuition attribute ratings), which is described on page 52, and like I said, when something says it boosts your "Reaction", and says it therefore also boosts your "Initiative", the Reaction bit means it's talking about the [Initiative Attribute], not the [broader concept of "Initiative"]. And I refuse to believe that they'd use "Initiative" in two consecutive sentences, and mean the [Initiative Attribute] in the first sentence, but the [broader concept of "Initiative"] in the second sentence.
Similarly, when the Increase Reflexes spell (which is compatible with anything that doesn't say it's incompatible with it, but that's not important right now) says it "adds +1 to the target's Initiative", it's talking about the [Initiative Attribute], since you can't have a +1 to a concept.
EDIT:
ZeConster, do you think there is a difference between boost, enhancement and augmentation?
And if so, what would the difference be?
I do not know, and I have 284 reasons to not care:
- "boost" occurs 73 times in the book.
- "enhancement" occurs 106 times in the book.
- "augmentation" occurs 103 times in the book.
- "Augmentation" is already something which can mean multiple things (remember the debate about whether spells and Adept powers were restricted by the "augmentation bonus" cap of +4?).
- I already looked up every use of a single term in the book once ("Initiative"), and it was a colossal waste of my time then too.
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Why would it be Initiative Attribute rather than Initiative Score in the Increased Reflexes spell Ze? It doesn't really matter since both are components of the general Initiative described on 159, but I'm curious as to why you read that as Initiative Attributr rather than score?
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Why would it be Initiative Attribute rather than Initiative Score in the Increased Reflexes spell Ze? It doesn't really matter since both are components of the general Initiative described on 159, but I'm curious as to why you read that as Initiative Attributr rather than score?
Why would they use "Initiative" to refer to your [Initiative Score] in that place when "Initiative score" occurs 149 times in the book?
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In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.
However, in your reading in which there is an important distinction between Intiative Score and Intiative Attribute in stacking terms, how are we to determine to which they are referring in the case of Increased Reflexes where nothing in the text refers to either Intiative Score or Initiative Attribute?
Initiative Attribute occurs elsewhere in the book as well, so I'm not sure what you think the Find Replace Word count is adding to your argument. Again in my reading if they say Initiative they mean Initiative, which they have helpfully defined for us on page 159.
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Because "Initiative" can also refer to the [Initiative Attribute]
Initiative is basically one or more dice plus a number (and the third part is initiative score which you get when you do an initiative test which involve rolling the dice and adding the number). You can add +1d6+2 to your initiative. You can also add +1d6 to your initiative dice (which is part of your initiative) and after that you can also add +2 to your initiative attribute (which is part of your initiative). You can remove 1d6+3 from your initiative during a combat turn (for example if you exit from astral projection) and you can also remove 1d6+3 from your initiative score (which is part of your initiative). I am sure the book have several examples where they add add or remove a number to initiative instead of initiative attribute or initiative score. There is no practical difference. Initiative attribute is still just one part of initiative. So are initiative score and initiative dice.
If an enhancement is incompatible with other enhancements to initiative then you can't use it to stack enhancements that increase initiative (it simply does not matter if it only increase the initiative attribute, the initiative dice, the initiative score or any combination of the three - they are all initiative enhancements and they are all part of the initiative).
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...Increase Reflexes spell (which is compatible with anything that doesn't say it's incompatible with it
Yes
Increase Reflexes is compatible with the following (for the purpose of calculating initiative):
Reaction enhancers
Adrenaline pump
Suprathyroid gland
Increase Reaction
Increase Intuition
Attribute Boost Reaction
Improved physical attribute Reaction
Adrenaline boost
Cram
Jazz
Kamikaze
Increase Reflexes is incompatible with the following (for the purpose of calculating initiative):
Wired reflexes
Synaptic booster
Another Increase Reflexes spell
Improved reflexes
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For me, this all boils down to one thing:
"Opinion". Ultimately, the rules as written are open to interpretation, and so each GM has to decide for themselves until official errata comes out (and even then, obviously, can choose to ignore it).
For my own sake, if I'm GMing an SR5 game I'll be making the minimum ruling of "all effects stack up to augmented max (apart from the case of Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers, which can exceed the limit if wirelessly enabled), except where gear is specifically mentioned (i.e. no Muscle Replacement cyberware with muscle toner, or similar)".
There's just too much ambiguity in the rules for my sake, and instead of spending countless hours debating the nuances I'd just allow players to stack up on stuff, as long as they remember that what applies to a player applies to an NPC.
Crunch: As for Cram being addictive, the rules on addiction tests means you can pretty much take Cram (with it's LOW addiction rating of only 4) for 4 weeks straight without requiring a test, and stay off it for the next two weeks and take a test at threshold 1, or stay off it for the next three weeks and not need a test at all, depending on how the rules for when the test it taken is interpreted. I'd hardly call that highly addictive, unlike Kamikaze, which certainly would mess you up, potentially after even a single dose.
The other disadvantages you list are all role played, and does not necessarily affect game mechanics (unless you have a fairly strict GM); I have no problem playing a slightly hyper character at all, especially considering the cost compared to 'ware. Hell, it's barely even restricted at 2R, and a good license for drugs or cram specifically would still cost a LOT less than 'ware, so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the possibility of confiscation.
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There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.
And yeah if you don't care about roleplaying penalties or the listed non mechanical effects Cram's weaknesses are reduced to crashing x hours later and having to have advance warning to take the drug (or burn your first complex action to grab and take a puffer). I'd certainly - as a GM - argue that being jittery and fidgety would result in a penalty to stealth and fine manipulation actions like lockpicking or hardware, and certainly from the description composure tests would be taking penalties as well, but you're right that there's not a mechanical if x then y penalty to such things.
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Actually, Cram is kind of useless unless you take it in advance of combat. It's onset time is 10 minutes.
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Actually, Cram is kind of useless unless you take it in advance of combat. It's onset time is 10 minutes.
Good catch.
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It's also a Psychological addiction which proably sucks for combat dudes given their likely attribute prioritization. I just built a combat drug guy and he's pretty much Kamikaze all the way given that it is the only combat oriented Physiological drug (plus the immediate onset time is bitchin').
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Cram lasts 12-Body hours. How much advance warning do you need that you're going into combat. If you're surprised, then sure, it'll be an issue, but that might be the case for anybody (Wired Reflexes is a simple action to activate, spells require a simple or complex action, and even adept powers have to be turned on; the only constant that has no on/off switch is synaptic boosters).
And if you're creating a combat monster that doesn't have high Willpower, you're setting yourself up for failure, because it's one of the few stats that can't be improved much by 'ware. Resisting a Threshold (1) test every 6 weeks does not an addict make, when you're rolling 8-10 dice, if you even need to roll given the above "schedule" mentioned (11-Addiction Rating 4, equals 7 weeks; use for several weeks, then don't. Problem solved. Kamikaze, on the other hand, is guaranteed one (or even more) test(s) from just a single dose, due to the high AR). Low willpower = easily dispatched by fear or any type of mind influencing spell. It doesn't matter if you can take 30 points of damage, if all it takes to take you out of the fight is a single "Control Actions" spell from the opposing mage, to my mind.
Crunch; the problem as I see it is that you and I obviously disagree on what the definition on p159 entails; while the definition of "initiative" is clear, the effects 'ware has on said definition is not, because of ambiguous use of language.
Does it really seem right to you that the spell Increased Reflexes stack with some 'ware and drugs, but not others? Or that certain pieces of 'ware arbitrarily can or cannot interact with each other? If so, my hat's off to you. I prefer a simpler approach, where players are less restricted by seemingly arbitrary rules (from my point of view).
And again, you judging that the description of being jittery equates to a potential penalty for sneaking test is just that; an opinion. It is NOT enforced by the rules, but it's your game so you're free to do what you want. This is especially true to me considering there is obviously room for interpreting the rules, given the many discussions on this and similar subjects.
It's also a Psychological addiction which proably sucks for combat dudes given their likely attribute prioritization. I just built a combat drug guy and he's pretty much Kamikaze all the way given that it is the only combat oriented Physiological drug (plus the immediate onset time is bitchin').
I hope your Body is exceptionally high, because even at 10 dice you're pushing it having to roll against a Threshold (3) addiction test every two weeks. Once you take that first hit, it'll just get progressively worse.
And Crush/JackVII, if you think roleplaying a Cram user could be problematic, try roleplaying a Jazz or Kamikaze user... All I'm saying is that Cram is like sugar compared to the methamphetamine of Kamikaze.
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If you know you're going into something, sure you'd take Cram. But again, you don't always know when bad stuff is going down. As for the delay... there's technically no reason to turn off WR. It's just as much of a roleplaying issue as using Cram. If you do turn it off, you at least get to turn it on with a Simple Action and make use of it immediately. rather than waiting 200 Combat Turns.
And if you're creating a combat monster that doesn't have high Willpower, you're setting yourself up for failure, because it's one of the few stats that can't be improved much by 'ware. Resisting a Threshold (1) test every 6 weeks does not an addict make, when you're rolling 8-10 dice, if you even need to roll given the above "schedule" mentioned (11-Addiction Rating 4, equals 7 weeks; use for several weeks, then don't. Problem solved. Kamikaze, on the other hand, is guaranteed one (or even more) test(s) from just a single dose, due to the high AR).
Regardless of whether you want it or not, your combat monster is unlikely to have a fantastic WIL & LOG if you're trying to be effective in killing stuff and soaking/avoiding damage (BOD, STR, AGI, REA, INT prioritized right there), which is the point of most combat monsters. I think your suggested 8-10 dice quickly drops to 5-7 on a normal build of that nature. Also, if you "need" drugs to survive a run or combat, I don't think you often have much choice in setting up your schedule of use. "Do I die now or risk getting addicted to this drug, let me ponder...".
ETA: My drug guy has BOD (6), WIL (3), and EDG (5). He rolls his 9 dice first and then, if he doesn't get his hits, uses Edge to reroll his misses. Total of 9 + (9, 8, or 7) dice should give a reasonably high chance to get 3 or fewer hits. He only has a Logic of 2, so the Psychological drugs have him scared.
...and yeah, he is roleplayed like a hyperkenetic daredevil when he's on kamikaze and not much less intense when not drugged.
<- Checks thread title. Oops, sorry that this has gotten a bit far a filed. This will be my last one on this particular subject.
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Going slightly more off-topic;
Can you even use edge on an addiction test that takes place during downtime?
As for your "your combat monster is unlikely to have fantastic WIL & LOG", I disagree; willpower is essential for all characters, due to the nature of Fear effects and Control Action spells, as a good mage can only help, not completely defend against such things.
As a counter-example; my combat "monster" has BOD4 and WIL 5, with EDG 6. I also roll 24 armor dice, have 14 physical condition boxes, 20 dice on melee cyber implants and with SMGs, since I spent just over 400k on cyber limbs. Once I get my pain editor in game, stun won't even matter much; case in point, not all combat monsters are created equal. ...
To drag this back on topic; I thing the cross reference matrix won't do us much good except in those instances where the RAW is clear enough that no argument can be made against it. Examples of this is Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation, Dermal Plating and Orthoskin, and Muscle Replacement and Muscle Augmentation/Toner.
Personally, I have no problem allowing the combination of Enhanced Reflexes (spell), Cram (drug), and Synaptic Boosters (bioware), as to my mind they all alter slightly different parts of your body (magical, chemical/neurological, and physical/physiological, respectively), up to the maximum of +4 above current stat (REA and INT) and +5d6 dice. The reason I don't have a problem with it is that to my mind the restrictions imposed by 'ware is only limited to other 'ware, not magical or chemical means. But that's my interpretation, and my interpretation only.
Looking forward to the FAQ/Errata.
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In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.
I'm well aware of your opinion (plus you repeated it as a prelude to your question): however, you asked why I thought "Initiative" there would refer to the [Initiative Attribute] and not the [Initiative Score], and I responded to the question you asked.
There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.
I do not ignore the p.159 text: I simply refuse to believe it magically means all "Initiative" uses refer to the p.159 [broad concept of Initiative] instead of the p.52 [Initiative Attribute] just because they don't slap "attribute" at the end every time even though they don't do that for the other attributes either.
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As a counter-example; my combat "monster" has BOD4 and WIL 5, with EDG 6. I also roll 24 armor dice, have 14 physical condition boxes, 20 dice on melee cyber implants and with SMGs, since I spent just over 400k on cyber limbs. Once I get my pain editor in game, stun won't even matter much; case in point, not all combat monsters are created equal. ...
OK, interesting aside: That's actually very similar to my build. Swap the two points on BOD and WIL and they're basically the same. I edge you out one box on physical condition monitor and I would guess two on body soak since we have the same Armor dice. How did you end up with 6 Edge? That seems a rather odd number for Edge. Two last questions since I might adjust my character concept: How did you get 20 dice on cyberimplant weaponry and what were your non-augmented STR & AGI?
Edit: Rather than muddying this thread, can you PM the charsheet? Thanks!
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In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.
I'm well aware of your opinion (plus you repeated it as a prelude to your question): however, you asked why I thought "Initiative" there would refer to the [Initiative Attribute] and not the [Initiative Score], and I responded to the question you asked.
There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.
I do not ignore the p.159 text: I simply refuse to believe it magically means all "Initiative" uses refer to the p.159 [broad concept of Initiative] instead of the p.52 [Initiative Attribute] just because they don't slap "attribute" at the end every time even though they don't do that for the other attributes either.
Unfortunately Ze, your answer was non responsive. You asked me why I was doing something I'm not doing (reading initiative as initiative score) when I am in fact reading Initiative as Initiative rather than Initiative score or Initiative Attribute.
And again I fail to see how assuming that the term initiative means what it's defined to mean is any way magical. My reading is that they say Initiative when they mean initiative, initiative score when they mean initiative score and initiative attribute when they mean initiative attribute.
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That the enhancement is incompatible with Initiative Attribute because the intent of the author at the time of writing might or might not have been that the enhancement should be incompatible with Initiative Attribute instead of incompatible with "Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice" is an interpretation of RAI.
RAW is "...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative". By the RAW definition of "Initiative" that translate into "...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction, Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score or Initiative Dice".
Further; "p.52 Initiative" that you keep pointing too state two things
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation.
2) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.
The definition for Initiative can be found on p.159
The definition for Initiative Attribute can be found at p.159
Then you have "p.52 Initiative Dice" that state:
1) Initiative Dice, as described on p. 159, are extra dice used to roll a character’s Initiative Score.
The definition for Initiative Dice can be found on p.159
The definition for Initiative Score can be found on p.159
Initiative:
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation. (p.52)
2) Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. (p.159)
3) Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. (p.159)
Initiative Attribute:
1) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition (p.52)
2) The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant. (p.159)
3) See the Initiative Attribute Chart to determine Initiative attributes for different types of combatants (Physical, Astral, Matrix, or Rigging) and their Base Initiative Die. (p.159)
The only inconsistency between p.52 and p.159 that I can see is that Initiative Attribute on p.52 only talk about the more common Physical Initiative Type, while the definition of Initiative Attribute on p.159 goes into more detail and also cover how to derive the Initiative Attribute for Astral, Matrix: AR, Matrix: cold-sim VR, Matrix hot-sim VR and Rigging AR.
How much advance warning do you need that you're going into combat.
~10 minutes (or ~200 combat turns).
...but that might be the case for anybody...
Improved Reflexes does not even have an activation time (unlike all the adept powers that do have an activation time), not even sure they can turn it off even if they want to. There is no real game mechanic disadvantage of having Wired Reflexes on at all times (except when you want to move slow - like when walking pass a motion sensor). Most magicians that rely on Increased Reflexes re-cast the spell each morning and then sustain it until they go to sleep or fall unconscious (often in a way to get rid of the -2 distraction modifier for mentally sustaining the spell). Synaptic Boosters are also always active i believe.
Ze, using bold in every single post you make put a.... not sure how to say this... mm.. "hostile"(?) tone on your posts. I am sure the intention is just to highlight specific words but that is how i perceive it when i read it. might just be me, or how this forum really make bold "stand out". I don't know :) (no biggie, but I thought I should at least mention it once so you know. at least on this forum i found using italics work much better for "highlighting" a word).
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Unfortunately Ze, your answer was non responsive. You asked me why I was doing something I'm not doing (reading initiative as initiative score) when I am in fact reading Initiative as Initiative rather than Initiative score or Initiative Attribute.
I did not ask you that.
Let me break it down for you:
- I said "I think it's obvious that Y means A and not B here because blahblahblah."
- You said "But why would you think Y means A and not C?"
- I said "Why would they use Y to mean C instead of A when they use X to mean C over a hundred times?"
Here, re-read my post:
Why would they use "Initiative" to refer to your [Initiative Score] in that place when "Initiative score" occurs 149 times in the book?
Notice how at no point I'm asking you why you're reading "Initiative" as meaning "Initiative Score" there? I'm simply responding to you asking me why I'm not reading "Initiative" as meaning "Initiative Score" there.
So my response was an obvious summarized version of the following:
- The [Initiative Attribute] is an Attribute that's named "Initiative".
- The [Initiative Score] is a score, yes, but it is constantly referred to as either "Initiative Score" or "score".
- Therefore, it doesn't make sense for them to use "Initiative" to mean "Initiative Score" there.
So not only was my answer indeed responsive (I used a rhetorical question to argue "that would make no sense"), but I also did not say what you say I said.
Further; "p.52 Initiative" that you keep pointing too state two things
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation.
2) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.
Except the rest of the chapter doesn't slap "attribute" on the end every time they talk about an attribute either (plus if they were to mean the p.159 concept there, they'd probably have put a reference to p.159 there). The same is the case in the spell section and the augmentation section.
Ze, using bold in every single post you make put a.... not sure how to say this... mm.. "hostile"(?) tone on your posts. I am sure the intention is just to highlight specific words but that is how i perceive it when i read it. might just be me, or how this forum really make bold "stand out". I don't know :) (no biggie, but I thought I should at least mention it once so you know. at least on this forum i found using italics work much better for "highlighting" a word).
I use italics to emphasize, and bold partly to strongly emphasize, partly to make sure people don't overlook or misread what I think is an important part of my post. As Crunch's post shows, I in fact do not use bold often enough.
And personally, I find that using smilies when criticizing someone gives off a "condescending" or "patronizing" tone, but hey, that's probably just me. I also don't particularly like being called by a 2-letter abbreviation of my nick (it gives off an "it's not worth the effort to call you by something that even approximates your full nick" vibe), but I'm sure you and Crunch mean no harm.
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Zeconster, I'm not reading it a Initiative Score. I'm reading it as Initiative per p 159. Excuse me if I'm unclear.
In the description of Increased Reflexes it in no place mentions score, nor attribute. It doesn't mention adding to Reflex. It simply says that it is adding to initiative. Under my reading that's perfectly clear. How do you get to "they must be talking about Initiative Attribute when the text makes no mention of Attribute, nor of anything related to the attribute?
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Zeconster, I'm not reading it a Initiative Score. I'm reading it as Initiative per p 159.
Okay, seriously, how long are we going to continue spinning in circles here? As I've already explained, I know you're not reading it as Initiative Score, and at no point did I say you did read it as that. How can you possibly read my "I didn't say you said X" post and go "but I didn't say X"?
In the description of Increased Reflexes it in no place mentions score, nor attribute. It doesn't mention adding to Reflex. It simply says that it is adding to initiative. Under my reading that's perfectly clear. How do you get to "they must be talking about Initiative Attribute when the text makes no mention of Attribute, nor of anything related to the attribute?
If you want to know the answer to that, I suggest you re-read this post (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.msg235104#msg235104), where I already explained why I got to that conclusion.
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You might want to read my clarifying edit, as I went back and realized I had been unclear.
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You might want to read my clarifying edit, as I went back and realized I had been unclear.
"Excuse me if I'm unclear." isn't a clarifying edit at all, since there's nothing to clarify. You're still saying "but I don't mean Initiative Score" when at no point I said you did.
Also, I edited my previous post to respond to your second paragraph.
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I added an entire paragraph under that ze in which I clarified my point. To wit, why - in your reading- does Increased Reflexes automatically refer to Initiative Attribute when nothing in the text indicates that it should do so.
p 159 defines initiative and it is not the reading you would have us make for Increased Reflexes.
Increased Reflexes neither directly nor indirectly mentions the Initiative Attribute. The contextual leap you've been making for other augments (if attributes are mentioned anywhere in the textblock then any mention of initiative means initiative attribute does not apply).
If we throw away p 159 assuming that they did not mean to define the term initiative when they inserted a definition of the term initiative how do we then distinguish between where they mean initiative score and initiative attribute? In increased reflexes there are no clues as to which is meant.
At which point you jump to "so it must be initiative attribute" and I honestly don't know how you get there. You asked me how I got to initiative score and the answer is I didn't. There are insufficient contexual clues to come to any conclusion other than that they meant to use the term as they defined it.
You've several times counted results on a find/replace to prove that there are places in the book where they say initiative score, there are also places where they say initiative attribute. My reading is simply that they mean what the say. However, I'm seriously trying to understand where you're coming from and I seriously cannot currently understand how you get to a consistent reading based on the arguments you're making here.
slipped by your edit
Why can't you have +1 to initiative? Everything in the game including initative attribute is a concept.
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For the record I also read Initiative as Initiative (which fit everywhere since it is based on Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice.....) When the book explicit mean something give a bonus to Initiative Score and nothing else they explicit write Initiative Score. Reading the word Initiative as Initiative Attribute would be RAI and not RAW.
So, what do we think about Aaron's post which basically mean that enhancements that are incompatible with "Augmentations" are only incompatible with bioware and cyberware - and compatible with spells, drugs and adept powers? :)
Augmentations that are made compatible with magic, adept powers and drugs by that definition include: Bone lacing, Bone density augmentation, Muscle replacement, Cyberlimbs, Muscle toner and Wired reflexes.
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The post also mean that enhancements that are not cyberware or bioware are not limited to the +4 augmentation limit (unless they explicit state that they are limited).
The reaction increase you get from improved reflexes adept power, for example, does not mention such a limit (but drugs only give +1 and i think all the other spells and powers do have this limit so you can't really break the +4 barrier anyway i guess).
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I added an entire paragraph under that ze in which I clarified my point. To wit, why - in your reading- does Increased Reflexes automatically refer to Initiative Attribute when nothing in the text indicates that it should do so.
I explained this in the post I linked to, the very post to which you responded by asking me why I (note to Xenon: also, I think italics are ugly) would think it meant the [Initiative Attribute] and not the [Initiative Score]. And considering the end of your post, you've obviously noticed the explanation, so I'm not sure why this is still in your post, since the lack of an "okay, putting that aside" before your point still gives the impression you think I'm saying you're saying something you're not saying, when I've repeatedly stated that despite what you think I'm saying, I'm not saying you're saying something you're not saying.
Why can't you have +1 to initiative? Everything in the game including initative attribute is a concept.
Because the [broader concept of Initiative] is something that encompasses [Initiative Attribute], [Initiative Dice] and [Initiative Score], and that isn't something you can just add a +1 to.
So, what do we think about Aaron's post which basically mean that enhancements that are incompatible with "Augmentations" are only incompatible with bioware and cyberware - and compatible with spells, drugs and adept powers? :)
That it obviously shows the rules were poorly and needlessly ambiguously written?
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If we use Aaron's reading (with the usual cautions, most days I find the game makes more sense if we don't listen to Aaron - YMMV) then the biggest issue is that both Muscle Toner and Muscle Replacement specify that they don't stack with other augmentations - therefore allowing in magical boosts.
However every magic stat boost I can find specifies that the augmented maximum does apply to them How do we square that with a strict reading of augmentation in the Wired Reflexes description? I frankly have no idea. It's internally inconsistent in the same way that Aaron's reading on cumulative recoil.
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Why can't you have +1 to initiative? Everything in the game including initative attribute is a concept.
Because the [broader concept of Initiative] is something that encompasses [Initiative Attribute], [Initiative Dice] and [Initiative Score], and that isn't something you can just add a +1 to.
Why not?
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You can't break +4 even if only one enhancement use the rule though. But this let us reach +4 with a combination of tech and magic.
Typing on phone atm.
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Just a quick note on the contention regarding whether or not "Initiative" means "Initiative as defined on p159" or "Initiative attribute and initiative score, or something else or inbetween";
Could it be that the developers, when writing the entry for Wired Reflexes and similar gear, chose to word "initiative" because the effects of Wired Reflexes adds to BOTH the Initiative Attribute (through the increased Reaction) AND the Initiative Score (by adding Rd6 to the roll)? If so, could this explain why Reaction Enhancers specifically state that it is incompatible with "all other enhancements to Reaction, including wired reflexes" [unless wireless enabled).
In a similar vein, Cram and Jazz both affect the Initiative Attribute by adding +1 REA, while also enhancing the Initiative Score by adding +1 and +2d6 respectively; contrary to these, Kamikaze only adds +2d6 to the Initiative Score, and so would seemingly be compatible with Reaction Enhancers given the RAW reading of both. Novacoke and Psyche, on the other hand, only affect Initiative Attribute by enhancing Intuition, and so again would likely be compatible with Reaction Enhancers specifically.
Personally, I think it would be beneficial to take a look at the effects of the 'ware, magic, and drugs discussed so far, rather than get further bogged down in semantics. Ultimately, we won't know for sure until official rulings are given, but if y'all want to argue till you're blue in the fac... erm, fingers... go right on ahead ;)
[EDIT]:
Looking at other pieces of augmentation, at least, it seems to me that the RAI is to exclude augmentations from interacting with each other, as per Muscle Replacements:
" It cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles, including muscle augmentation or muscle toner bioware"
Again, the effects are incompatible with each other, and the fluff text doesn't seem to matter much. It's this inconsistency in terminology that certainly breeds the kind of dissenting opinions evident in this thread, so it would be HUGELY beneficial to get a word from the Devs on what their intent was. *cough* HINT! *coughs* Oh, I'm sorry, excuse me.
;)
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Yes, I too think that wired reflexes is incompatible with Initiative is because it add Initiative Dice (and maybe also because reaction might add initiative attribute; depending on if the character is in physical, astral or in matrix VR).
Reaction enhancers are compatible with enhancements to initiative because it does not give an enhancement to initiative (only to reaction which might or might not be used to calculate initiative attribute which is part of initiative). You can't stack it with other reaction enhancements for the purpose of increasing your initiative and you can't stack it with other reaction enhancements for the purpose of increasing your pilot or defense pool.
But just because it is incompatible with enhancements to reaction does not mean you can't use cram. Just that cram does not stack the reaction part of the drug since you already got reaction enhancers. You still get the initiative enhancement (in this case initiative dice) even if you have reaction enhancers cyberware.
You can also stack Cram and Jazz to get +1 reaction from both (unless you have reaction enhancers or synaptic boosters which are the only two reaction related buffs that are incompatible with drugs). If you combine both with improved reflexes 3 you will get +5 to reaction. Improved reflexes is not an augmentation (cyberware or bioware) and non of them explicit state that they can't augment attributes beyond the normal +4 limit that augmentations (cyberware and bioware) are slaved under. You can also stack the +1d6 initiative dice from cram, +2d6 initiative dice from jazz with the +3d6 initiative dice from improved reflexes 3 since drugs are not technological nor magical. The reaction enhancement from all three stack at initiative level as well since they are compatible to initiative enhancements. You are looking at an initiative of natural reaction + natural intuition + 1d6 plus cram which give +1d6+1 plus jazz which give +2d6+1 plus improved reaction which give +3d6+3 for a total of natural reaction + 5 + natural intuition + 7d6 (but initiative dice is capped at 5d6 so you will lose 2d6 there).
(and i am sure there are some rules that make it a Bad Idea(tm) to combine and mix drugs when it comes to stuff like addiction and side effects).
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(and i am sure there are some rules that make it a Bad Idea(tm) to combine and mix drugs when it comes to stuff like addiction and side effects).
Too much of anything can hurt you, or even kill you. Whenever you take a substance while you’re already on that substance or one that has a shared effect (like the way cram and novacoke both affect Reaction), you take Stun damage with a DV equal to the sum of the Addiction Ratings of the overlapping drugs, resisted with Body + Willpower.
I imagine the fact that Cram and Jazz grant bonus initiative dice would qualify, if not the fact they grant Reaction. That would be an instant 12S to resist, plus the other usual addiction stuff.
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I thought Augmented Max applied to all enhancements, not just 'ware?
Also, the example given by Xenon is why I think it's ludicrous that some things stack the way the rules are written, and some don't.
So mages are in luck, because magic stacks with drugs, but vatjobs with 285k worth of bioware can't become faster by taking a 10 nuyen dose of cram and improve his speed further? Come on, that's just ridiculous... There's no way that's RAI, and if it is, you can be sure I'll houserule it in games I GM.
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I thought Augmented Max applied to all enhancements, not just 'ware?
We all did. The problem is that in Aaron's reading of Wired Reflexes Augmentation refers only to cybernetic augmentation. Since it would be REALLY bad practice to use the same terminology to mean different things in different places without indicating the difference we have to call into doubt the Augmented Maximum for magic enhancements unless the enhancement itself calls out the Augmented Maximum. It's an (I presume) unintended consequence of his reading.
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Who's Aaron, one of the Devs? And we don't "have" to anything, until official errata is released. I do agree on the poor choice of/conflicting terminology used throughout the book, as they certainly could have been a lot clearer.
Link to the above reading by Aaron?
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It's in the FAQ thread. Aaron's a freelancer, and his answers aren't official. The "have to" meant "If we accept the reading then we have to." Aaron's a really nice guy and answers a lot of questions. I'm not a fan of that reading and hope it doesn't make it into the FAQ, but that was the basis for the discussion about augmented max.
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I just hope these kinds of ambiguities are addressed...it's bad enough that the preorders (for me at any rate) were not well communicated (shipping wise)...it's worse that i"m paying for what will probably end up being irrelevant.
Someone really needs to get that Errata page up and running.
(admittedly this is offtopic, but it's arguments like these that make me despair)
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You can't break +4 even if only one enhancement use the rule though. But this let us reach +4 with a combination of tech and magic.
With physical and mental attributes, yes, but with Initiative, this is not exactly the case.
each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4.
Since Initiative isn't a Physical or Mental attribute (instead it's derived from a Physical and a Mental attribute), I don't think the +4 limit applies to it. This leaves two truck-sized holes in the "+4 max" rule when it comes to Initiative: if both Reaction and Intution are augmented, you basically add the augmented bonuses together to get your augmented Initiative (example: Rea 5(9), Int 4(8) --> Ini 9(17)); and since Increase Reflexes doesn't cap the Initiative bonus, only your Initiative Dice (at 5D6), there's not really a limit (if you use Edge to Push the Limit, anyway, otherwise it's the spell's Force) to how much of a boost Increase Reflexes can give to your Initiative.
ambarmetta: while I admit there's some really annoying ambiguities, I'm more concerned about the rules apparently allowing Wired Reflexes and Increase Reflexes to stack (since bioware is supposed to be superior to cyberware, this seems incredibly unfair) than I am about people interpreting the "Initiative" references in such a way that Adrenaline Boost becomes 99% worthless.
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I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.
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@ZeConster:
I understand your concerns, actually, and same with Crunch's...I just want some clear responses as to what they were intending, then we can go ahead and say "this is how we wanna house rule it." My GM is already unimpressed by the implementation of 5th Edition, and errata that would clear up the numerous inconsistencies would help.
Back on topic, I will have to take a look myself at RAW here. Followed the thread up to this point, though.
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With physical and mental attributes, yes, but with Initiative, this is not exactly the case.
Yes. The limit only apply to augmentations (cyberware and bioware) and only apply to physical and mental attributes. There are also specific spells and adept powers that also fall under the same +4 limit that augmentations use, they all explicit mention when this is the case.
It does not seem as if the reaction bonus to improved reflexes adept power or drugs fall under the +4 limit that augmentations use since they are not augmentations and they don't explicit mention the limit...
What I meant was that you still can't for example get +5 reaction if you combine increase attribute reaction with 3 hits and improved reflexes 2 adept power (in this case increase attribute reaction spell will get a forced limit to a +2 reaction increase and you would end up with a +4 increase to reaction).
I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.
The bonus to initiative that you can activate every combat turn with a free action also stack with initiative bonus from reaction enhancers augmentation, wired reflexes augmentation, adrenaline pump augmentation, suprathyroid gland augmentation, increase reflexes spell, increase reaction spell, increase intuition spell, improved physical attribute reaction power, cram drug, jazz drug and kamikaze drug...
...actually, the only two enhancers that adrenaline boost is incompatible with is synaptic booster augmentation and improved reflexes power (sure, they are common - but not sure I agree the two make adrenaline boost 99% useless?)
Also, if you have 1.5 PP worth of adrenaline boost you will can still use it to improve your initiative when you activate it even if you have synaptic booster augmentation or improved reflexes power (if you rolled bad on your initiative dice - on rank 1 it will always improve your initiative even if you rolled 6 on your extra initiative dice, on rank 2 as long as you roll 9 or less on your two extra initiative dice and even on rank 3 as long as you roll 8 or less on your three extra initiative dice). It is not compatible so it does not stack, but being incompatible does not mean you can't activate both powers at once. You just need to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
(if incompatibility have the same meaning for spells as it does for augmentations;))
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I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.
Well, its worthlessness under your interpretation depends on a few factors, I guess:
- Mystic Adept, Adept with Wired Reflexes or loose-incompatibility-rules 'ware, Adept using drugs, or Adept with a spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: decently useful
- Non-augmented Adept with no drugs or spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless
- (JUST REALIZED THIS) As above, but you're not surprised: useful
- As above, but Adrenaline Boost isn't errata'd, meaning you can use it to get +10 to your Initiative Score and soak 5S Drain X times instead of (5*X)S Drain: useful
In the second, third and fourth case, since your interpretation means Adrenaline Boost is incompatible with Improved Reflexes, even though you can get +12 to your Initiative Score, you need to take a Free Action to activate it (annnd I just realized you can take a Free Action even before your first turn if you're not surprised, so you can use Adrenaline Boost when whoever goes first takes their turn - if you're Surprised, though, getting an extra Initiative Pass is a small comfort when most people get a chance to attack you before you can use the power).
So as I just now realized, it's still useful (although if you want to use Adrenaline Boost, you'll have to resort to drugs, 'ware or magical support, or accept never being able to go first in a combat turn) - however, its incompatibility with Improved Reflexes under your interpretation is still a massive kick in the teeth of non-augmented Adepts, since they have to choose between Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes, when augmented Adepts can use Wired Reflexes and Mystic Adepts can cast Increase Reflexes on themselves.
On a semi-related note: could you please stop using "Initiative" to refer to the [Initiative Score]?[/list]
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...spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless
How is bonus to initiative score worthless for a spellcaster sustaining increase reflexes spell on them?
Increase Reflexes spell is compatible with further increase to Initiative.
Adrenaline Boost power is compatible with further increase to Initiative.
Pure win.
(it is also win when used by an adept as long as the adept is not using a [high] rank improved reflexes adept power)
I don't think you get any further benefit for activating adrenaline boost more than once during the same combat turn since it give you "+2 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have". If you activate it twice you still only get "+2 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have" and not "+4 to your Initiative Score for the current Combat Turn for every level of this power you have".
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I'm not sure how a power that provides +12 Initiative for 1.5 power points is "99% worthless." The drain can be an issue, but on a PP to efficiency rating Adrenaline Boost is awesome.
Well, its worthlessness under your interpretation depends on a few factors, I guess:
- Mystic Adept, Adept with Wired Reflexes or loose-incompatibility-rules 'ware, Adept using drugs, or Adept with a spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: decently useful
- Non-augmented Adept with no drugs or spellcaster sustaining Increase Reflexes on them: 99% useless
- (JUST REALIZED THIS) As above, but you're not surprised: useful
- As above, but Adrenaline Boost isn't errata'd, meaning you can use it to get +10 to your Initiative Score and soak 5S Drain X times instead of (5*X)S Drain: useful
In the second, third and fourth case, since your interpretation means Adrenaline Boost is incompatible with Improved Reflexes, even though you can get +12 to your Initiative Score, you need to take a Free Action to activate it (annnd I just realized you can take a Free Action even before your first turn if you're not surprised, so you can use Adrenaline Boost when whoever goes first takes their turn - if you're Surprised, though, getting an extra Initiative Pass is a small comfort when most people get a chance to attack you before you can use the power).
So as I just now realized, it's still useful (although if you want to use Adrenaline Boost, you'll have to resort to drugs, 'ware or magical support, or accept never being able to go first in a combat turn) - however, its incompatibility with Improved Reflexes under your interpretation is still a massive kick in the teeth of non-augmented Adepts, since they have to choose between Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes, when augmented Adepts can use Wired Reflexes and Mystic Adepts can cast Increase Reflexes on themselves.
On a semi-related note: could you please stop using "Initiative" to refer to the [Initiative Score]?[/list]
If it makes you feel better. Although notably anything that Adds to initiative score also adds to initiative so what I said was correct.
Given that adepts have the best set of anti surprise abilities in the game I'm actually quite fond of Adrenaline boost. The synergy between Combat Sense, Adrenaline Boost and Danger Sense gives adepts an alternative to Improved Reflexes that's quite nice. Improved Reflexes 3 only averages +131/2 to initiative score, level 2 averages +9. Adrenaline Boost is a lot cheaper than either of those options. Adrenaline Boost is more predictable but has drain, Improved Reflexes offers more potential upside but is more expensive and less consistent.
Regardless of compatibility, a given character could very well be better off with Adrenaline Boost 6 and 2 additional PP than with Improved Reflexes 3 for the same cost. That seems a far cry from the hyperbolic 99% useless claim above.
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Yes, it give you a very good alternative to improved reflexes 1 and a good alternative to improved reflexes 2. It is also very predictable so you can calculate in advance how many levels you need and fine tune it during the combat turn with different level qi focus to always get that extra action phase... but the drain stack up a bit too much to make it a viable alternative to improved reflexes 3 (imo).
We should probably also not forget that Improved reflexes also give bonus to reaction (pilot skill dice pool, defense pool against indirect spells, avoiding getting rammed by a vehicle, ranged and melee combat as well more dice to avoid getting hit by suppressive fire).
(improved reflexes 1 is not worth it when compared to PP on adrenaline boost and combat sense instead)
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Nice thread. Would it be possible to list them all in an excel matrix box, colored red and green or whatever?
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Eventually. At this point everyone does not seem convinced what is compatible with what so the most accurate would be to use limitations in the individual descriptions. But you can use the first page to look at one attribute and see the limitation text on all enhancements that affect that attribute at once... so you can make your own judgement at your own table if they are compatible incompatible with each other.
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updated post #2 to reflect that initiative dice are "physical" and does not work for "astral" or "cold- or hot-sim VR matrix" initiative.