Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: zarzak on <07-11-15/1953:44>
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I really like the new Prototype Transhuman quality, but ...
I'm having trouble justifying it in *any* build.
10 karma for ignoring 1 essence of bioware seems great on the surface, but the opportunity cost is that you need to put in the nuyen for 1 karma of bioware.
Realistically you need priority C resources to get some nice bioware to make the quality worth it. But the opportunity cost there is often either a priority worth of attributes (4 points), or a priority worth of special attributes (3 points of edge or whatever), or a substantial amount of skillpoints.
I've tried it with adept, technomancer, mystic adept, magician ... I just can't seem to make it ever 'worth it'.
Any thoughts?
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Sum-to-15? ;D
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I believe Life moduels might make it worth wild, as there is a few with additional bits of bioware in them.
I'm using it in a build I'm doing for a technomancer, the Juicer, which will use it. Just waiting for chummer to be good with the quality.
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I've tried it with adept, technomancer, mystic adept, magician ...
Have you tried a mundane? It is a whole point of essence for even more 'ware for a street sam.
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I've tried it with adept, technomancer, mystic adept, magician ...
Have you tried a mundane? It is a whole point of essence for even more 'ware for a street sam.
I think it's hard even for sams with 5e ware costs.
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it works great with an adept. use it and restricted gear to get level 4 muscle toner.
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Adept its nearly worth taking toner 4 without the quality. 1 essence vs 4 power points
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it works great with an adept. use it and restricted gear to get level 4 muscle toner.
Yeah, or you could just instead buy some more strength with attributes instead ... and not have to spend the karma. Or spend the money on a weapon focus instead (which is probably better the much better buy). I mean ... 20 karma + however much nuyen is a huge opportunity cost to pay.
Unless you're already maxed out on strength, and have solid body/agility/will/intuition/edge/magic.
Adept its nearly worth taking toner 4 without the quality. 1 essence vs 4 power points
Would you really want muscle toner 4 over a weapon focus though?
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My missions primary went C resources and mananaged force 3 combat axe and used toner 3.... its mostly for show though I find throwing weapons to be enough.
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I'm trying to make it work for a technomancer, and the only thing I can think of is that the character started as less optimal, and then buying some more 'ware thoughout the character's career.
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My missions primary went C resources and mananaged force 3 combat axe and used toner 3.... its mostly for show though I find throwing weapons to be enough.
Right - but that required a C in resources. What if you instead took a B in resources and upped something else (attribute/metatype/skills/magic)? Would you have been more 'optimal' then? (Not so concerned with more flavorful, just looking purely at the numbers here)
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it works great with an adept. use it and restricted gear to get level 4 muscle toner.
Yeah, or you could just instead buy some more strength with attributes instead ... and not have to spend the karma. Or spend the money on a weapon focus instead (which is probably better the much better buy). I mean ... 20 karma + however much nuyen is a huge opportunity cost to pay.
Unless you're already maxed out on strength, and have solid body/agility/will/intuition/edge/magic.
Adept its nearly worth taking toner 4 without the quality. 1 essence vs 4 power points
Would you really want muscle toner 4 over a weapon focus though?
is this a trick question? do you know how expensive 4 points of agility would be? 4 points of agility is far superior to a weapon focus.
agility modifies among other things
gymnastics
agile defender
firearms
stealth
lock picking etc.
unless you are going for a social adapt, it's hard to find a better deal, in both karma efficiency and effectiveness.
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I'm trying to make it work for a technomancer, and the only thing I can think of is that the character started as less optimal, and then buying some more 'ware thoughout the character's career.
Technomancer is what it should work *best* for, because of the fact you can boost logic *and* willpower through bioware.
I also believe that you need to start with the bioware with prototype transhuman. It doesn't explicitly state so, but every aspect of the text implies it: "These special organs were genetically grown into you from your inception—they are as much a natural part of you as your liver or heart." So no taking the quality and then buying the bioware later
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it works great with an adept. use it and restricted gear to get level 4 muscle toner.
Yeah, or you could just instead buy some more strength with attributes instead ... and not have to spend the karma. Or spend the money on a weapon focus instead (which is probably better the much better buy). I mean ... 20 karma + however much nuyen is a huge opportunity cost to pay.
Unless you're already maxed out on strength, and have solid body/agility/will/intuition/edge/magic.
Adept its nearly worth taking toner 4 without the quality. 1 essence vs 4 power points
Would you really want muscle toner 4 over a weapon focus though?
is this a trick question? do you know how expensive 4 points of agility would be? 4 points of agility is far superior to a weapon focus.
agility modifies among other things
gymnastics
agile defender
firearms
stealth
lock picking etc.
unless you are going for a social adapt, it's hard to find a better deal, in both karma efficiency and effectiveness.
But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?
20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example). That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.
So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.
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" You were built better than a normal human, so you may pick up to 1 point of Essence of bioware (not cyberware). While you must pay the normal cost in nuyen of the bioware and otherwise follow all character creation rules, you do not incur any essence cost. So, essentially, you gain up to 1 point of free Essence to be used exclusively on bioware."
I am understanding the quality as the character's body is better built to handle bioware, not that they have the corresponding bioware built in from birth.
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Little further down..
These special organs were genetically grown into you from your inception—they are as much a natural part of you as your liver or heart.
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Choosing my interpretation. ;)
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But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?
20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example). That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.
So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.
This. And it's not like you don't have other really good options to pick from after the first two levels of Muscle Toner. Muscle Augmentation for Melee Adepts. Orthoskin and Bone Density, Poison Claws, Tailored Phermones for Social Adepts, Cerebellum Boost. Lots of stuff to grab that is doing you good that you don't have to pay out another 10 Karma for.
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And if you take it and are a technomancer/mage dont you still take the magic/renonance hit? and your aura is all spotchy
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And if you take it and are a technomancer/mage dont you still take the magic/renonance hit? and your aura is all spotchy
No, because your essence wasn't reduced. You were born with the bioware, so its a part of you and thus is 'natural'.
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Honestly, that seems like splitting hairs to me. You still have the implants and you're still using 1 full point of Essence (you just get extra Essence from the Quality). I'd say you should still lose the appropriate amount of Magic.
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Honestly, that seems like splitting hairs to me. You still have the implants and you're still using 1 full point of Essence (you just get extra Essence from the Quality). I'd say you should still lose the appropriate amount of Magic.
I wouldn't.While you must pay the normal cost in nuyen of the bioware and otherwise follow all character creation rules, you do not incur any essence cost.
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Honestly, that seems like splitting hairs to me. You still have the implants and you're still using 1 full point of Essence (you just get extra Essence from the Quality). I'd say you should still lose the appropriate amount of Magic.
You're not gaining a point of essence, rather you're not incurring any essence cost for the point of bioware. There is an important distinction there.
With the rules as written, your first point of bioware (taken at character creation is what I believe the intent is, going by the full text) does not cost any essence. In other words, when calculating magic/resonance you are subtracting 0, so you don't lose any.
This is very different than *gaining* a point of essence, in which case what you say would be how it works. But, thats not how the quality is written (and the quality would be almost worthless if it worked this way).
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It is very similar to the exceptional magic/resonance quality.
it costs more karma (because you get a negative quality) but does not require special attribute points.
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" You were built better than a normal human, so you may pick up to 1 point of Essence of bioware (not cyberware). While you must pay the normal cost in nuyen of the bioware and otherwise follow all character creation rules, you do not incur any essence cost. So, essentially, you gain up to 1 point of free Essence to be used exclusively on bioware."
I am understanding the quality as the character's body is better built to handle bioware, not that they have the corresponding bioware built in from birth.
It's from Birth... you were born that way. I wish they had opened it up to Gene ware as well. It would fit theme & mechanics if they had.
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I went looking for a 4e style 'geneware counts as bioware' or 'nanoware counts as cyberware' precisely to see if that might be the case.
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yeah, its would be more splitting hairs to say that you would lose magic/resonance, because well.. For this character, all that bioware is completely natural. You don't lose essence or magic for having a heart or liver or being a changeling or metavarient.
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I went looking for a 4e style 'geneware counts as bioware' or 'nanoware counts as cyberware' precisely to see if that might be the case.
Not there... but that's cause they did away with the double Essence holes. :'( those were so abuseable coupled with Type O System it makes me sad they went away. I'm gonna go ask in Errata thread about it though... maybe that could be addressed to.
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I read the fluff as having to have the ware from the start.
If it was grown into you, you can't just slot it in later. Or replace it.
It's probably also never used ware.
This raises an interesting question about regeneration: Does this stuff count as "ware" if it is part of your genetic makeup?
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As in a creature with regeneration can't have augments because the surgical incisions cannot be made to install it?
I would say since the power is assuming you need to be cut open, and the protype has you being born with it.. that you could have a regenerating creature with aguments only from that quality. But thats just me.
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Well, regenerating creatures can accept deltaware.
But other ware is "spit out", so it's not just about the implantation.
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But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?
20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example). That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.
So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.
This. And it's not like you don't have other really good options to pick from after the first two levels of Muscle Toner. Muscle Augmentation for Melee Adepts. Orthoskin and Bone Density, Poison Claws, Tailored Phermones for Social Adepts, Cerebellum Boost. Lots of stuff to grab that is doing you good that you don't have to pay out another 10 Karma for.
Sure, but if you're going for narrow competency (which is what adepts excel at) then it's definitely worth it. Even more worth it to end up with 2 Essence worth of implants for 1 Essence worth of cost.
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But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?
20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example). That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.
So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.
This. And it's not like you don't have other really good options to pick from after the first two levels of Muscle Toner. Muscle Augmentation for Melee Adepts. Orthoskin and Bone Density, Poison Claws, Tailored Phermones for Social Adepts, Cerebellum Boost. Lots of stuff to grab that is doing you good that you don't have to pay out another 10 Karma for.
Sure, but if you're going for narrow competency (which is what adepts excel at) then it's definitely worth it. Even more worth it to end up with 2 Essence worth of implants for 1 Essence worth of cost.
The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build
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It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.
For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.
Now here's a few question..
Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?
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The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build
Well, you're sacrificing 4 Attribute points to gain enough nuyen to get 3-4 attribute points, and points to raise your most important attribute above it's normal limit, to boot.
Meaning you save karma getting those other attributes up some time later.
It might be a disadvantage at the start, but it pays dividends later.
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It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.
For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.
Now here's a few question..
Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?
Compatibility yes, Lightning Reflexes no. The Bioware you're installing follows all other rules. So, yes with Biocompatibility (Bioware), you can get 1.1 essence worth of stuffs. All for the low, low cost of 15 Karma.
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The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build
Well, you're sacrificing 4 Attribute points to gain enough nuyen to get 3-4 attribute points, and points to raise your most important attribute above it's normal limit, to boot.
Meaning you save karma getting those other attributes up some time later.
It might be a disadvantage at the start, but it pays dividends later.
I don't know about that. I've made a few sample characters, and here is how it generally works out:
Bioware costs to get a full essence of good bioware: roughly 120k nuyen, or the difference between priority B and priority C resources.
Cost of the quality: 10 karma
Now for a priority worth of resources and 10 karma you get the following (as an example);
+2 strength (augmented) (important, as raising augmented attribute points is much easier than normal attribute points)
+2 agility (augmented) (important, as raising augmented attribute points is much easier than normal attribute points)
+1 to your primary combat skill (reflex recorder)
something else, say a sleep recorder
Now consider the trade-off:
You can up your attributes a level, for 4 more attribute points.
If you're taking a B in resources you likely took a hit in your attributes somewhere. If you're a troll, for example, you'll likely be able to raise agility by 1 and various initiative attributes by 3. You'd also have an extra 10 nuyen (which translates to 20k, which can get you that reflex recorder if you want, or whatever).
You can raise, say, your magic by a level. For example, if you're an adept you could go from magic D to magic C. Assuming you put your special points into magic, this would essentially get you 2 additional points of edge, 2 skill points to use, and the karma (with your additional edge, you could get Revel in Murder, for example).
You can raise, say, your skills by a level. If you were an elf, for example, you may have had skills D. So going to skills C would net you 8 more skill points and 2 group points. And you'd have the 10 karma.
If you're building properly, a lot of these things would take significant karma expenditures to get ... so its not so simple, imho.
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It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.
For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.
Now here's a few question..
Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?
Compatibility yes, Lightning Reflexes no. The Bioware you're installing follows all other rules. So, yes with Biocompatibility (Bioware), you can get 1.1 essence worth of stuffs. All for the low, low cost of 15 Karma.
And at least 1 priority level in resources - don't forget about that. :p
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Yeah the biocompatability might not be too worth it.. But a lot of the bioware has 0.1 or less essence cost.
With a Techno, I'm thinking of going something along the lines of a
6 Nephritic Screens
A sleep regulator
Neuro-retention enhancer
Reception enhancer - I can no longer suffer a -2 for being distracted in AR
If i did take the biocompatability, I'd also be able to fit in one rank of the enhanced reflexes. Could also just drop the neuro-retention enhancer and just pick up the quality with karma. It would be about the same thing.
Or you know, I could just have a stock of drugs on hand, whenever I needed it. I could then use them for attribute enhancements. As per the song. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RL9afO27Kg)
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Oh, and to answer the original question. If you're building a Samurai with Resources A and you're looking at things like Used Wired Reflexes 2, Used Muscle Replacement 3, or Move By Wire. Something that is taking a big bite of Essence and is "only" costing you 100kish. Then 1 Essence worth of Bioware for 10 Karma starts to look better. Example this set up here:
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Active Hardwires Rating 5 - Alpha
Cerebellum Booster Rating 1
Datajack - Alpha
Muscle Replacement Rating 3 - Used
Reaction Enhancers Rating 3 - Used
Reakt
Smartlink - Alpha
Synaptic Acceleration
With Biocompatibility (Cyber) I've got 0.24 essence and over 50k Nuyen still to burn. Move the Cerebellum Booster to the Prototype, brings it to .44 Essence left, and with 50k that's Orthoskin and Bone Augments (or whatever). Is it worth 10 Karma? Maybe.
But yes, in order to make Prototype Transhuman "worth it" for mechanical reasons you need to already have a pile of cash to spend and place a moderate value on that 1 point of Essence. Either you're augmented to hell and gone already and this is how you cram in more, or you're trying to fit in a few key pieces of Bioware without costing Essence. A technomancer willing to take on a high level of "In Debit" for example.
Or for RP reasons you really want to play a Catgirl Adept but don't want to spend the Magic on Severe Biosculpting.
Oh, also, pretty much every Prime Runner ever.
Also, Way of the Burnout, Biocompatible (Cyber), and Prototype Transhuman for the "Give me all the Augments!" build.
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With Biocompatibility (Cyber) I've got 0.24 essence and over 50k Nuyen still to burn. Move the Cerebellum Booster to the Prototype, brings it to .44 Essence left, and with 50k that's Orthoskin and Bone Augments (or whatever). Is it worth 10 Karma? Maybe.
But yes, in order to make Prototype Transhuman "worth it" for mechanical reasons you need to already have a pile of cash to spend and place a moderate value on that 1 point of Essence. Either you're augmented to hell and gone already and this is how you cram in more, or you're trying to fit in a few key pieces of Bioware without costing Essence. A technomancer willing to take on a high level of "In Debit" for example.
Or for RP reasons you really want to play a Catgirl Adept but don't want to spend the Magic on Severe Biosculpting.
Oh, also, pretty much every Prime Runner ever.
Also, Way of the Burnout, Biocompatible (Cyber), and Prototype Transhuman for the "Give me all the Augments!" build.
Biocompatability is only 5 karma, and is definitely worth it for several types of characters; no argument there.
For prototype transhuman ... its not so straight forward. Unless you're prime runner. But thats a totally different ballgame, and not really relevant to the discussion (prime runner changes a lot of things ... :p ).
For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
For adepts I find that a mentor spirit generally gives much stronger mechanical benefits than way of the burnout + prototype transhuman (I've been trying really hard to make it work).
Biocompatability is only 'worth' it if you're doing a ton of augments (preferably of the used variety). Its niche, but does have definite uses.
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It's a must have for a social adept IMHO.
There's very little that boosts social skills beyond tailored pheromones and cool resolve and auth tone and neither of those adds 3 to your social limit like tailored does.
Also if your adept build was going to take bio ware anyway it's a lot better than way of the burnout.
I have build that uses proto trans, biocompatibility, mentor, joat and agile defender to good effect to make a pistol adept/ face.
I'll post it later.
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It's a must have for a social adept IMHO.
It's easy enough to hit a Social Limit of 11 with no gear except Mortimer's from R&G and no PP devoted to improving social skills, and a dice pool of 18-22 with First Impression and said Mortimer's as well.
One starts to wonder whether increasing dice pool or Limit at that point is really worth the investment versus getting something else. Most of the time, I'd say probably not.
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It depends if you are optimizing for commanding voice.
If so you can never have enough dice (Yu want to affect groups not just a single person, right?).
It's also a way to generate enough extra points for social skills that your actual social skills don't have to be high, saving those skill points for other things.
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For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements. Or don't count as qualities for somethings. Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means. Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit. But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.
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For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements. Or don't count as qualities for somethings. Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means. Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit. But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.
*Really*. I didn't know that.
Doesn't change that much though ... but its fun to know.
So you could have ...
Burnout Way
Transhuman Prototype
Biocompatability
Mentor Spirit
And be "OK". Of course you'd need the full 25 points of negative qualities, I imagine ...
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Well, Ways don't get more expensive after Char Gen.
I think it was said they should be handled like Martial Arts, and MAs are counted against the limit.
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For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements. Or don't count as qualities for somethings. Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means. Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit. But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.
tl;dr - You must pay the karma cost, but they don't count against the P/N Qualities karma limit. Ways and some other stuff like Infection are Qualities, but they are not Positive Qualities or Negative Qualities.
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urm i thought the same thing re: martial arts and ways.
they are both qualities that count towards the positive quality limit in chargen but neither cost double post chargen.
that's about it.
it also happens to be the way hero lab implements it, which is not gospel and they do make mistakes but on the whole they are very accurate.
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urm i thought the same thing re: martial arts and ways.
they are both qualities that count towards the positive quality limit in chargen but neither cost double post chargen.
that's about it.
it also happens to be the way hero lab implements it, which is not gospel and they do make mistakes but on the whole they are very accurate.
Not to get off topic, but ... I thought martial arts were just a karma expenditure, not a quality ... where does it say that they are a quality?
*Edit* I think I answered my question ... they aren't.
Standard characters are limited to 25 karma of positive qualities. You can take 27 karma of martial arts to start. There's no way they can count as positive qualities ...also the book says nothing about that being the case.
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No, you can take 7 Karma of Martial Arts and 20 Karma of extra Maneuvers, which are not new martial arts.
It's not really explicitly said anywhere, this (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18827.msg334488#msg334488) is the only description I have.
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Not to get off topic, but ... I thought martial arts were just a karma expenditure, not a quality ... where does it say that they are a quality?
in Run & Gun
Martial Arts is a Quality (which does NOT cost Double after Char Creation)
when Buying it you get 1 Maneuver for Free, all other Maneuvers from that MA cost 5 Karma
with a Martial Dance
Medicineman
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I just checked, Run & Gun does not say that martial arts styles or techniques are Qualities. They are completely separate.
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Not to get off topic, but ... I thought martial arts were just a karma expenditure, not a quality ... where does it say that they are a quality?
in Run & Gun
Martial Arts is a Quality (which does NOT cost Double after Char Creation)
when Buying it you get 1 Maneuver for Free, all other Maneuvers from that MA cost 5 Karma
with a Martial Dance
Medicineman
It only says they are "styles" not "qualities". But ... these books are so full of omissions/contradictions who knows. 8)
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I am trying to incorporate this quality into an adept and having a heck of a time.
Ideally, he is a few things:
1) Elven
2) With friends in high places (I have to try this quality out!)
3) Maybe a pair of cybereyes to boot (for story reasons mostly).
I liked the idea of him being A Gunner / Face but am having a heck of a time making it work and not be missing "the shadowrun basics" (gear, perception, etc). Any suggestions?
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Being a mundane face will make things easier. The only real thing you lose out on is Commanding Voice. Everything else is nice but not strictly necessary. It's easy enough to be an elf throwing 20-22 dice with a social limit of 11 before Tailored Pheromones.
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I figured the Gunslinging part would fit better as an adept? The eyes or what-have-you cyber bits would be for some minor story telling / compensation for loss.
Even if I lost an essence to Cyberware (+1 more from the bioware of this thread), I figure it was better than naught, but if Mudnane is the best option... i'll give it a shot. :)
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Well it just gives you something to easily slot at priority E.
I would swing the other way and go full bore cyber. Low Essence penalizes your Social Limit by at most 2 and it's easy to have gear and implants that provide a total of +5 to that Limit, for a net gain of +3 (or about 14, which is way more than necessary). With Transhuman Prototyoe you can try to afford Muscle Toner and/or Tailored Pheromones at a baseline then just add Wired Reflexes, an implanted smartlink, orthoskin, and bone lacing. Easy enough to get a character who can throw a punch, shoot, sight, sneak, and talk.
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You know, in my years of playing, never did a chromer... I really enjoy the growth potential of magic. I guess there is a first time for everything though.
I'll give it a shot; it doesn't seem too rough ;)
Thanks!
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For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements. Or don't count as qualities for somethings. Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means. Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit. But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.
tl;dr - You must pay the karma cost, but they don't count against the P/N Qualities karma limit. Ways and some other stuff like Infection are Qualities, but they are not Positive Qualities or Negative Qualities.
Do you guys have a link to this?
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You know, in my years of playing, never did a chromer... I really enjoy the growth potential of magic. I guess there is a first time for everything though.
I'll give it a shot; it doesn't seem too rough ;)
Thanks!
Sure thing. I'll add that the big benefit to Transhuman Prototype here will be a bunch of bioware you'd already want like a reflex recorder or two, Muscle Toner, Tailored Pheromones, and orthoskin. The extra point of Essence goes pretty far.
In the alternative don't worry about Muscle Toner as part of the Prototype stuff; get Muscle Replacement instead (it's cheaper and also boosts STR but is also hungrier for Essence).
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For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.
Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements. Or don't count as qualities for somethings. Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means. Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit. But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.
tl;dr - You must pay the karma cost, but they don't count against the P/N Qualities karma limit. Ways and some other stuff like Infection are Qualities, but they are not Positive Qualities or Negative Qualities.
Do you guys have a link to this?
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19863.msg355723#msg355723
That's all I can provide for now. I'll look up some more info.
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Ways most certainly do count against the Positive Quality limit, although they do NO cost double post chargen.
You can only take one Martial Art at chargen (and they do not cost double post chargen) but it does not seem to count against the Positive Quality limit.
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FYI you most certainly can build an elven gunslinger adept/ face with 'ware.
I'll post the build I used for chargen in a bit.
You know, in my years of playing, never did a chromer... I really enjoy the growth potential of magic. I guess there is a first time for everything though.
I'll give it a shot; it doesn't seem too rough ;)
Thanks!
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This is a pistol adept/ face build that uses biocompatibility and prototype transhuman to cram in the 'ware at almost no cost to magic and essence to get two jobs done, face and gunslinger adept.
You could easily swap out pistols for automatics if you like but given where he will likely be going with his Facial Sculpt, Melanin Control and Keratin Control it's likely a pistol will be a better weapon.
He has essence room for more 'ware post chargen, most likely all bioware due to his bio-compatibility.
I had originally built this guy with Way of the Burnout but stacking Bio-compatibilty with Prototype Transhuman is a much better option if you only take one or two points of essence for 'ware.
His edge sucks but it's only 10 karma post chargen to raise it.
He has JoaT so post chargen you can easily buy new skills or raise your relatively low social skills easily.
This build primarily works because it optimizes the essence efficiency of 'ware vs. adept magical enhancements where relevant and uses the adept powers for face skills that can't be found elsewhere (no 'ware for that, except tailored pheromones which he has).
This leaves him with about $20k to spend on equipment and Sin.
face pistol adept
METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6/8, R 5/6, S 3, W 3, L 3, I 5, C 8, ESS 5.48, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 0
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 13
Physical Initiative: 10/11+2D6
Active Skills: Athletics Group 1, Con 1, Impersonation 1, Influence Group 2, Perception 4, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 6, Sneaking (Urban +2) 6
Languages: English N
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Agile Defender, Bio compatible - bioware, Jack of All Trades, Master of None, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Prototype Transhuman, SINner (Corporate SIN): Renraku
Adept Powers: Authoritative Tone (2), Combat Sense (1), Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs. Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (6dicepool), Hang Time (1), Keratin Control, Melanin Control (5h), Traceless Walk, Voice Control (1) (13dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
Muscle Toner - Biocompatible (2)
Smartlink (Alphaware)
Synaptic Booster - Prototype Metahuman (1)
Tailored Pheromones - Prototype Transhuman (3)
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2015 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
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Combined with Boosted Reflexes you can make a poor man's version of the Lightning Reflexes quality, You miss out on +1 initiative and +1 defense and ¥10k, but it saves you 10 karma, which could possibly be more useful if your build required it.
As far as using it to replace attribute points that you would otherwise lose out on, it's pretty worthless, unless you have a rather high resource priority and were planning on taking really low attributes. It is more useful if you are looking to save your max magic/resonance but want some of the extra enhancements that bioware can offer, especially with the some of the monetarily cheaper bioware offerings that would not put as much of a strain on the lower resource priority.
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I think that some extra armor is always worth it for adepts. orthskin 2 alpha+ bone density augmentation 2 alpha + reflex reorder or sleep regulator. (regular) Lets do the reflex reorder.
you get +4 armor (worth of 2 PP), you get +1 for one of your adept abilities. For a total of 2.5 power points worth in augmentations. Cost about 40k you can reduce by downgrading orthskin and bone from alpha to normal. (and giving up the reflex reorder).
If 40k is too expensive for 24K you can get just the +4 armor, (and Str +1 physical if you are into that thing). Armor is the one thing mundanes can get a lot more than awakened I think 24k is not a big commitment and can fit into your build even with resources D.
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Thanks a ton WhiskeyJack, Adzling, and gilga.
Some great ideas have me tweaking and staring at two very different build ideas for the new game I'm in. I love working with people who don't just slot knowledgesofts about this.
Much appreciated!
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FYI the other Prototype Transhuman thread has the priorities for this toon and spells out some of his dice pools.
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Do you guys have a link to this?
This was from the respective Freelancer:
Are Ways supposed to cost double after character creation?
They should be treated the same way as martial arts. Yes they are qualities, but the cost is the same after or during character creation. An adept is allowed to find his Way during the campaign.
I copied the quote from another post here, to an other forum, and now back because I don't have the original link, so clicking on it will lead to a whole lot of nothing.
It's what he wrote, but I don't have proof.
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That's the quote I remember, so they do count against positive Quality limits in chargen.
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Another good use for it..
being a freekin changeling without having to you know.. spend an arm and leg in karma, social modifiers and the like. Cause for some reason being born a mutant (Or made into one later) is different than being born a mutant. Cause when your born a mutant, you didn't have a choice. So... Shame! But when you're born a mutant you did have a choice. So Rejoice.
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Can you prove that the cost of the ways does not increase after chargen? Page numbers and something like that? Mission rules (and HeroLab) do not count. The only reference I can see is:
"Players can amend previously created characters and retroactively purchase a Way. This is per the gamemaster's discretion. See p. 103, SR5, for more information about purchasing and paying off qualities." SG p. 176.
Why there is a link to p. 103? The only essential information are the cost (2x listed Karma cost) and no time limits. You can buy them at any time.
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Well with those criteria, you can't even prove that 5e technomancers don't cost 30 karma to submerge the first level and then an additional 60 karma for next submerssion
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It seems that the cost is probably 40 after chargen. Because RAW support that and it is in missions also.
"For the Adept Ways, is the cost to gain one after creation 20 karma or 40 karma?
I'm adding in a Retcon rule. It's 20 if done as a Retcon, it's 40 if done later on. Retcons can be done before your first game session after a new book becomes "Missions Legal" (or, in the case of Street Grimoire, before your next game session after v1.3 of the FAQ drops).
-Bull"
Source:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg325421
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Missions is a bit of an odd beast, though. It has to behave unlike default Shadowrun in certain ways, in order to suit it's own nature.
A standard game does not, for instance, have to worry about the earnest use of Code Of Conduct.
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It seems that the cost is probably 40 after chargen. Because RAW support that and it is in missions also.
"For the Adept Ways, is the cost to gain one after creation 20 karma or 40 karma?
I'm adding in a Retcon rule. It's 20 if done as a Retcon, it's 40 if done later on. Retcons can be done before your first game session after a new book becomes "Missions Legal" (or, in the case of Street Grimoire, before your next game session after v1.3 of the FAQ drops).
-Bull"
Source:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg325421
Eh. Play a few missions, Retcon after a new book drops, arrange your Karma spend in the most optimal way. Bull is no dummy, he knows that's what folks will do. Pretty sure that is Bull's intent since, for whatever reason, Catalyst won't put out a simple errata clarifying the issue.
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I don't have a hard quote to hand but it has been discussed in here and on other forums and freelancers have noted that both Ways and Martial Arts, although qualities, do not cost double post chargen.
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I don't have a hard quote to hand but it has been discussed in here and on other forums and freelancers have noted that both Ways and Martial Arts, although qualities, do not cost double post chargen.
Which is a real shame that there's no centralized official errata on that :-\
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No its not really worth it I don't think. At least on the hyper specialized average combat adept everyone is thinking about. Its to me its similar to taking a 20 point quality like a way because I'm paying 10 karma, then I pick up another 10 karma negative quality. It saves me the power point I've spent on my bio adept build, but I only get another 2 points of improved ability.
Is +2 to one of your dice pools worth it for 20 karma?
Only people with crazy karma who just wanna see how high they can get their dice pool should take this. Which is this qualities real plus side, your not limiting yourself. Your not lowering a point of essence to limit your potential, you still have room for a few positive qualities you can get at character creation.
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Just a simple reminder you don't have to take a full point of essence worth of bioware to make this useful. I can spend ten karma and 126k to get muscle toner 2 and muscle augmentation 2 at a cost of 0.8 essence. the only thing i have picked is my priority C and i still have enough for gun, bullets, armor, fake SIN and a low to medium lifestyle. Nuyen is also the easiest thing toi get through game play so I always use it as a dump stat and then barrow, steal of buy what i need in game.
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Just a simple reminder you don't have to take a full point of essence worth of bioware to make this useful. I can spend ten karma and 126k to get muscle toner 2 and muscle augmentation 2 at a cost of 0.8 essence. the only thing i have picked is my priority C and i still have enough for gun, bullets, armor, fake SIN and a low to medium lifestyle. Nuyen is also the easiest thing toi get through game play so I always use it as a dump stat and then barrow, steal of buy what i need in game.
The last reply before yours was 2 years old. People are much more familiar with the quality now.