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Hacking a vehicle with EM Shielding

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Korduk

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« on: <03-20-18/2227:49> »
Good day, chummers. 

I recently had a disagreement with my GM, and while I relented to his judgement, I would like to hear what the community thinks about this situation:

A rigger has a vehicle with Electromagnetic Shielding (page 166, Rigger 5) and was sitting inside, physically jacked into it, with its wireless functionality disabled.  Along comes a Hacker with a grudge...

The question is, can the rigger and/or his vehicle take Matrix damage? 

I would greatly appreciate if rules references could be included with your interpretation.

Thank you for your time.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <03-20-18/2305:03> »
The vehicle itself can absolutely be bricked.  Unless it in turn is inside another, larger faraday cage.

The Rigger sitting inside the vehicle would be safe from Matrix damage*.

However if the Rigger is jumped in to the vehicle, then he can suffer matrix damage as his persona merges with the vehicle's device icon.


*= actually kind of tricky.  The electromagnetic shielding acts as a faraday cage, which effectively provides infinite noise.  Noise only ever affects the source; not the target.  For example if you're in a heavy spam zone and someone from another sprawl is hacking you, you don't add the noise of your environment to the hacker's test (SR5, pg 230).  Now that being said, the faraday cage appears to break that precedent by explicit language in the description of what it does.  So ultimately I'd say that the specific "rule" for faraday cages trumps the general rule that you don't apply noise to an action based on the target's environment.
« Last Edit: <03-20-18/2309:16> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Marcus

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« Reply #2 on: <03-21-18/0139:09> »
Good day, chummers. 

I recently had a disagreement with my GM, and while I relented to his judgement, I would like to hear what the community thinks about this situation:

A rigger has a vehicle with Electromagnetic Shielding (page 166, Rigger 5) and was sitting inside, physically jacked into it, with its wireless functionality disabled.  Along comes a Hacker with a grudge...

The question is, can the rigger and/or his vehicle take Matrix damage? 

I would greatly appreciate if rules references could be included with your interpretation.

Thank you for your time.

What was the GM argument as to how the Hacker got in?

I could see a variety of methods bypass these sorts of things, Touch linking, micro-drone penetration, pre-planted databombs, nanites exposure, pre-planted sprites, Pre-planted AI assistance, and I'm sure there's more. But it would require some fairly serous preparation. With the target being wirelessly inactive the decker couldn't have bricked you from the normal dataspike method. That said pre-planning and gathering information are all mainstays of decking. So I would just try and figure out how that guy got in, and trace it back. A pawned deck buys a lot drones.
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SMDVogrin

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« Reply #3 on: <03-27-18/1320:22> »
"Toggling an individual device’s wireless functionality off is a Free Action, as is toggling all of your wireless devices to “wireless off.” You lose wireless bonuses, but the items can no longer be wirelessly hacked." - SR5 Core, pg 421

Unless the hacker somehow has a wired connection, the vehicle can't be hacked.  And the stuff inside the vehicle is protected by the EM Shielding.  So, no, without a direct connnection I can't see how the hacker can hurt you - I'd want a pretty solid explanation of how he's wirelessly hacking something that's wireless off.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <03-27-18/1332:18> »
You can turn your vehicle wireless off (or run silent), but that's introducing a whole new basket of problems if you do.  It's like casting invisibility on a vehicle... may sound good on paper but in practice you come to see it's a pretty terrible idea for other vehicles on the road to not be able to see you...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <03-27-18/1545:26> »
With regards to having your vehicle wireless deactivated:  If you're parked I don't see it causing you trouble.  If you're trying to drive while wireless is disabled... well.

For starters you can't get your AR/VR bonuses for driving.  You can't use Gridlink to ignore worries about fuel/battery charges.  While you might be able to jump in to a wireless disabled vehicle directly via data cable (and I'd say that's arguable as to whether you even can), it's pretty clear that if the vehicle is a faraday cage its sensors won't be operating. If sensors are inside the field, they won't work.  If they're outside the field, they can be hacked and therefore the exercise is moot.  And of course while jacked in, you can't even look out the windows to use your eyeballs as sensors.  Driving while you're blind, and while you're not showing up on gridlink isn't asking if you'll be in a traffic accident, it's a question of how long before you're involved in one.

If you want to use an EM shielded vehicle as hack-proof armor, I don't see it working in practical terms unless the vehicle is stationary.  And of course Shadowrunners specialize in penetrating the unpenetratable.  Just because you have EM and wireless turned off doesn't mean a data tap can't be delivered onto your vehicle, or etc.
« Last Edit: <03-27-18/1547:59> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

SMDVogrin

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« Reply #6 on: <03-27-18/1557:39> »
Sensors work fine while wireless off, and vehicle sensor suites include cameras.  They can also include radar, IR, ultrasound, and many other things that don't care that the cars around them aren't on the Matrix.  Yes, Gridlink and GridGuide won't register you - but your vehicle works fine, and you can drive it fine even while the vehicle is Wireless Off.

firebug

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« Reply #7 on: <03-27-18/1603:28> »
You're able to jump into a device with its wireless disabled if you have a direct connection to it.  Nothing about being jumped in requires drones or vehicles to be wirelessly enabled (it just isn't practical for anything you can't fit in).  You can use the vehicle's sensors as they're a hardwired part of the vehicle.  It works totally fine for the rigger and is a common practice to protect a vehicle from hackers.  The rigger uses the UDC cable from their control rig to plug into their RCC, then plugs the RCC into the vehicle.  No wireless needed.

The AR/VR bonuses would still be available, as they aren't like wireless bonuses from gear, they're to represent added ease of use.  Being able to use AROs or VR (which you can still do just like how you can use your computer without an internet connection) just makes driving easier.

For the record they could also drive the vehicle without going into VR (and thus without jumping in) doing the process above, as their RCC's sim module would allow them to see AROs sent by the vehicle.  So, for example, a driver could be in a car with all the windows covered, with an ARO in front of them showing them what the car's camera sees, because they're plugged into their RCC which is plugged into the car.

If you want an example of this, the opening fiction of the PDF supplement Coyotes has a character doing exactly that.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <03-27-18/1801:45> »
Ignoring physics and treating a faraday cage as an imaginary construct that exists only in the rules:

R5 discusses the EM shield as protecting what's inside the vehicle, but it doesn't say vehicle itself is shielded from the EM spectrum. It says matrix comms can't go wirelessly through the vehicle; not that they're stopped before reaching the vehicle's own hack-susceptible electronics. Besides if the sensors are working, the vehicle must necessarily be receiving EM/matrix data and therefore the vehicle itself is interacting with the EM spectrum. However, if the rigger inside an EM shielded vehicle jumps in, his persona merges with the vehicle's icon and his RCC becomes vulnerable to taking matrix damage and he physically is vulnerable to Bio-feedback from outside the vehicle by way of a hardwire connection through the EM shielding to the body of the vehicle itself.

Bringing real world back into the rules (a dangerous and shaky proposition, granted):

Of course what disrupts the faraday cage's field is going to be GM judgement... the metal bands surely go through the doors and when a vehicle door is opened it's got to be disrupting the faraday cage/EM shielding.  But would opening a window negate the shielding?  Less clear.  Damage to the body of the vehicle is even more subject to GM whim on whether the bands are affected.

Going by what R5 says, EM shielding doesn't do much of jack for protecting the vehicle itself.  It's all about making the passengers/cargo unhackable.  Of course that's a different discussion from having the vehicle go wireless off.

« Last Edit: <03-27-18/1806:13> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <03-27-18/1830:19> »
The AR/VR bonuses would still be available, as they aren't like wireless bonuses from gear, they're to represent added ease of use.  Being able to use AROs or VR (which you can still do just like how you can use your computer without an internet connection) just makes driving easier.

This part boggles me.

How can you have AR/VR bonuses if you're cut off from the matrix?  Or are you saying you can still get AR/VR bonuses if your car is wireless off and NOT EM Shielded, since the AR/VR bonuses are coming thru your Commlink/RCC?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

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« Reply #10 on: <03-27-18/1947:42> »
Well, think of it like this.  If everything is wired together (you, RCC, car), then the sim module in your RCC allows it to basically use your DNI in place of a monitor.  You use the DNI to interact with the RCC (which doesn't require a matrix connection because you're plugged into it) and the RCC being plugged into the car allows it to transfer information and data through the RCC to you.  In this case, AR and VR are basically what become your GUI.  They're the interface, not the matrix.

Unless EM shielding would completely shut down electronics (in which case it would just brick the car and your RCC...) then it won't interfere with that.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <03-27-18/1954:53> »
Quote from: SR5 Core User Modes, pg 229
When you interact with the Matrix, you can do it in one
of three modes. In augmented reality, or AR mode, you
deal with reality directly, and you use your meat body
to interact with the Matrix through AR overlays. In virtual
reality, or VR mode, your body goes limp and your
only sensory input comes from the Matrix.

But AR and VR don't do anything without a Matrix connection... by their nature they are ways of interacting with the Matrix.   

The Matrix can't propagate wirelessly to inside a Faraday Cage.. that's the point of a Faraday Cage.
« Last Edit: <03-27-18/2001:52> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #12 on: <03-27-18/2010:13> »
I would say if you are directly connected to the vehicle and you have something that can project the AR/VR interface like a control rig implant or even trodes then we can get AR/VR bonuses for driving a vehicle as the matrix does nothing to assist and isn’t needed to drive a vehicle manually.
Of course then you cannot rely on a grid link hack to feed you enemy vehicle information
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <03-27-18/2016:30> »
Well it makes sense that the Rigger inside the EM shielded vehicle has full (and reciprocal!) connectivity to the Matrix at large by way of data cable when physically jacked in.  It's when you combine that with the vehicle being set to wireless off that the scenario gets hinky, since neither vehicle nor RCC can receive external data.

I think I understand firebug's argument in saying you don't need to be "on the matrix" to directly jump in to a vehicle.  If I do understand her correctly, I don't agree.  Sr5 pg 241 lists Jump Into Rigged Vehicle as a Matrix action.  No Matrix = No Matrix Actions, logically.  You, your RCC, and/or your Vehicle you're directly jacked in to need to have contact with the Matrix to do a Matrix action, neh?
« Last Edit: <03-27-18/2040:40> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

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« Reply #14 on: <03-27-18/2128:54> »
Quote from: SR5 Core User Modes, pg 229
When you interact with the Matrix, you can do it in one
of three modes. In augmented reality, or AR mode, you
deal with reality directly, and you use your meat body
to interact with the Matrix through AR overlays. In virtual
reality, or VR mode, your body goes limp and your
only sensory input comes from the Matrix.

But AR and VR don't do anything without a Matrix connection... by their nature they are ways of interacting with the Matrix.   

The Matrix can't propagate wirelessly to inside a Faraday Cage.. that's the point of a Faraday Cage.

How do I phrase this...  That passage is written without considering the seriously edge-case situation we're discussing.  AR and VR are ways to interact with devices and hosts, AKA, "the matrix".  More than nine times out of ten, there's no reason you'd try to use AR or VR without being wireless.  But consider this...

You know how you can hack a hardwired system, where everything is a throwback device wired to eachother?  You still use AR or VR to do it even though it's cut off from the matrix, because that's how computers work in Shadowrun.  AR and VR are ways to interface with the matrix and devices.

I think I understand firebug's argument in saying you don't need to be "on the matrix" to directly jump in to a vehicle.  If I do understand her correctly, I don't agree.  Sr5 pg 241 lists Jump Into Rigged Vehicle as a Matrix action.  No Matrix = No Matrix Actions, logically.  You, your RCC, and/or your Vehicle you're directly jacked in to need to have contact with the Matrix to do a Matrix action, neh?

No, you don't.  Editing a file is a matrix action.  Are you going to argue that you can't write on your commlink when it's not connected to the matrix?  What's needed is a device capable of performing the action, and a connection to a valid target.  Normally this is done wirelessly via the matrix, but you can just plug into the device you are targeting.  The reason a direct connection removes any Noise is because you can interface with the device without the matrix.  Really, am I being that crazy by suggesting that turning off your wireless doesn't stop you from using wires to connect to things?
« Last Edit: <03-27-18/2134:21> by firebug »
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