Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <08-11-19/2156:05>
-
So, heard from some podcasts that training a skill takes (1 Month)xRating? Is this accurate? Is this same with Attributes, including magic?
Is there anyway to mitigate this or speed this up, such as traits, special training, etc? What kind of commitment is this to the runner, do they just have to effectively do nothing but train for those months, or is this something that can be done along other things during down time. Also, can they train multiple things at once?
Seems very....restrictive, imo.
-
There is a table that has about how long it would take to learn skills/attributes, but these are simple suggestions for if a GM wishes to figure training times (probably for multi-rank increases between runs). The only thing I've seen have a hard learning time is spells, which take a little over a week depending on the study roll.
-
The training times given in the book are suggestions, they're all awful suggestions but you can ignore them without issue. On to your questions, it's (new rank) months and (new rank x 2) months respectively. Someone can use the Instruction skill on you to speed things along by one day per net hit or they could if there was a threshold/opposed test for them to get net hits on.
-
The training times given in the book are suggestions, they're all awful suggestions but you can ignore them without issue. On to your questions, it's (new rank) months and (new rank x 2) months respectively. Someone can use the Instruction skill on you to speed things along by one day per net hit or they could if there was a threshold/opposed test for them to get net hits on.
I feel like that's another quirk of the book. Bad suggested guidelines of way too long, a way to speed it up by using an Instructor to reduce it, then to provide nothing to oppose the Instructors roles to actually do the reduction of the poorly suggested optional time to train.....yeah....
Anyways, if there isn't an opposed roll listed under Instruction skill, I would just rule it as hits instead of net-hits, given that there is nothing to 'net' against :-p
-
I'd let Instruction cut off a percentage instead.
The suggested learning times also explain they assume 4h/day training and that with 12h per day resting and living, you can do 3 simultaneous trainings at a time. For a long campaign with max 10 karma a month they work out.
-
Step one. Ignore everything there except the part that says it’s suggested times. Step 2 go with rankxweeks on the long side, I’d go with rankxdays if I even used training times. Rank and 2 times rank for attributes is so bad I don’t have words to describe it.
10 months later after 10-20 runs maybe 10-40 sessions after you forgot you even spent the points to increase your agility to 5 you finally gain a point of agility. Any training time that takes more than the next session to acquire is just terrible.
-
Step one. Ignore everything there except the part that says it’s suggested times. Step 2 go with rankxweeks on the long side, I’d go with rankxdays if I even used training times. Rank and 2 times rank for attributes is so bad I don’t have words to describe it.
10 months later after 10-20 runs maybe 10-40 sessions after you forgot you even spent the points to increase your agility to 5 you finally gain a point of agility. Any training time that takes more than the next session to acquire is just terrible.
I am kind of with you on this one, unless the goal of the suggestion is to strongly encourage Instructors and make them more valuable + encourage longer downtime between runs?
I wonder if the scenario of people never coming up against their Lifestyle costs due to not having a good reason to do down time other than healing is the impetus for this?
-
I think the training times are relatively realistic, which many here seem to like given the debates about SR6, but it's rather in discord with the flashier style. I'd probably consider 'going to the gym' to already qualify for training all physical attributes at the same time, and if I play a short campaign decrease the training times.
For longer campaigns, the times make a lot of sense. Like I mentioned: If you earn 10 karma per month and are constantly training, you'll still end up short on karma. But people want instant gratification, so then spending a year on training your Agility from 5 to 6 is a hard sell, even though it takes them half a year just to earn the karma for it.
Another thing the training times balance out: Magic monkeys. No more 'let's put all my karma into Magic', because you'd earn it faster than you can spend it, so people are encouraged to spread out more.
-
I think the training times are relatively realistic
Realistic, sure. Perhaps even generous in some cases, in terms of realism. Who wants to spend their karma for an increase and then have to wait potentially 10* or more game sessions before they actually get to use it, though? That's not fun at all.
*: This figure based upon consideration that one run per month seems pretty average.
which many here seem to like given the debates about SR6
Where are these many again? I surely missed them if they were on the forums. The "many" I saw generally voiced against the new times.
-
Then pay the karma afterwards.
As for those "many": I mean the repeated complaints about the new Armor system due to being unrealistic.
-
Then pay the karma afterwards.
That does literally nothing to address the issue though. Example:
My goal is to get swol, bro! Taking that Body from 5 to 6. Just completed my 5th run, and have the 30 karma needed to do so. I can A or B.
A: Spend my 30 karma now. Wait 12 game sessions before I get to use Attribute increase.
B: Wait 12 game sessions. Spend that 30 karma, that wasn't going anywhere else anyways, because I needed it for this increase.
Either way you are still waiting 11 game sessions for that upgrade you were able to afford 12 sessions ago. That is ludicrous and entirely unfun. Yes, 5e had a wait to, but waiting 1 session vs. 11 is an incredible gap.
As for those "many": I mean the repeated complaints about the new Armor system due to being unrealistic.
I personally think that is an enormous false equivalency. The training times are realistic and logical, but unfun and do not flow well with the anticipated flow of game in terms of how shadowrunners live their lives. The armor issue is unrealistic, illogical, unfun, and does not flow well with the expectation of what should happen when an individual dons gear designed to protect them from gunfire.
Not all folks can articulate their position well, and not all folks can understand anything past the literal words someone invokes. Armor system being "unrealistic" is a good, simplified way of explaining the feelings of the "many" who've criticized it, but it may not capture the exact nuances of why it is actually poorly designed.
-
Then pay the karma afterwards.
That does literally nothing to address the issue though. Example:
My goal is to get swol, bro! Taking that Body from 5 to 6. Just completed my 5th run, and have the 30 karma needed to do so. I can A or B.
A: Spend my 30 karma now. Wait 12 game sessions before I get to use Attribute increase.
B: Wait 12 game sessions. Spend that 30 karma, that wasn't going anywhere else anyways, because I needed it for this increase.
Either way you are still waiting 11 game sessions for that upgrade you were able to afford 12 sessions ago. That is ludicrous and entirely unfun. Yes, 5e had a wait to, but waiting 1 session vs. 11 is an incredible gap.
ACTUAL example:
From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.
-
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period. So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
-
I’m not sure I’d even call them realistic. I got strength gains going to the gym far far faster than months of daily training. I think getting to peak human would be lengthy and likely impossible for many but anything less than peak is actually a fast gain. Skills for example you should probably be able to train from 0 to 6 all 6 points in total in a 5-6 months. Getting past standard professional to expert is where you actually have to put effort and time in. But a scaling system where it suddenly jumps in time and difficulty to learn at arbitrary levels with some people just being incapable of reaching the peak would be a pain in the ass and not very fun.
-
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period. So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
Mind you, it's still suggestions and they make very clear you should go ahead and tweak it to fit your campaign.
For a long campaign, with intended duration 20+ sessions, I'd probably follow these, maybe have an instructor at most half the time. But that's a personal preference, and is based on the lack of interest in a Magic-monkey and not something I'd follow in a short campaign (if I play 30 Nights, the training time will be 1 downtime instead). People should feel free to do what fits their table.
-
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period. So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
That’s similar to what I’ve suggested but just don’t be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.
Basically don’t have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills aren’t just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.
-
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
-
]ACTUAL example:
From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.
I find the wording too unspecific to share your certainty that interpretation is accurate, but if you are correct, it will help the matter significantly.
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
That would have also been a good rule, rather than the no rule but suggestion we have.
-
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.
Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?
I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
-
A minute of fighting at most vs dedicated training? Eh it won't interrupt your training regime but unless you're on the streets every day I doubt it replaces the need to train.
Mind you, 'these are the times between increases but actual training is 1 downtime and we ignore the rest' also works. But it makes sense that training is required.
-
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.
Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?
I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )
-
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.
Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?
I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )
Few hours a day is reasonable, because you can alternate muscle groups. (i.e. leg day). There is no benefit to not letting a muscle group repair from a heavy work out, though, because it is that rest period that allows repair and growth, assuming proper nutrients.
-
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.
Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.
Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?
I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )
Few hours a day is reasonable, because you can alternate muscle groups. (i.e. leg day). There is no benefit to not letting a muscle group repair from a heavy work out, though, because it is that rest period that allows repair and growth, assuming proper nutrients.
if we are talking daily more than a hour is probably not happening. And daily actually probably isnt. When I buffed up I went 40 minutes to an hour 4 days a week. I went from in shadowrun terms probably a 2 str/agility to a 4/3 in maybe 2 months tops.(by SR5 lift rules I was 6/6 bod/str but those rules are laughable) I never got past that because I’m a middle aged fat man just trying to get into shape not a young athletic person trying
To hit peak performance.
-
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build.
This. It's an hour and 20 minutes a day for me, 6 days a week, and that is just the strength training.
-
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period. So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
That’s similar to what I’ve suggested but just don’t be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.
Basically don’t have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills aren’t just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.
This isn’t a more common thing in games? I always thought it was kind of assumed that your characters were practicing their skills in their downtime barring extenuating circumstances. I always saw training times in all games more as a limit the GM’s could use when characters wanted to raise skills or attributes up several points in rapid succession.
-
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period. So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
That’s similar to what I’ve suggested but just don’t be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.
Basically don’t have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills aren’t just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.
This isn’t a more common thing in games? I always thought it was kind of assumed that your characters were practicing their skills in their downtime barring extenuating circumstances. I always saw training times in all games more as a limit the GM’s could use when characters wanted to raise skills or attributes up several points in rapid succession.
Until this thread I thought it was the norm as well.
-
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build.
This. It's an hour and 20 minutes a day for me, 6 days a week, and that is just the strength training.
That’s a lot. Most people i see doing strength training if it’s intensive stop around an hour. Your profile pic though is pretty damn buff so you take it more seriously than a lot of people and I ever did.
My routine before I wrecked my back was I rotated through 3 similar sets did 2-5 minutes of intense cardio to keep my heart rate up did another 3 sets until I had 3x3 then I’d switch muscle groups a bit for another 3x3. I wasn’t heavy lifting though so it’s a different strain. Usually took me on hour if I was lazy and dropped a set or two 40 minutes.
How I wrecked my back is I went too long. A leg day I did one more set of 3 which I handled. I went to the leg press for a final set but put the weights lite as a cool down set only 500 pounds. I accordioned like 3 into it. 500 pounds was way under my normal press that’s close to what I was squatting but muscle fatigue kicked in and my legs just gave out. It’s why I don’t think anyone seriously goes 4 hours they may be at the gym 4 hours but there are probably a ton of breaks.
-
From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.
"SR6 is a streamlined edition with less unhelpful book-keeping" versus "SR6 RAW compels players to precisely plan their character's advancement one game-year ahead of time."
-
That’s a lot. Most people i see doing strength training if it’s intensive stop around an hour. Your profile pic though is pretty damn buff so you take it more seriously than a lot of people and I ever did.
My routine before I wrecked my back was I rotated through 3 similar sets did 2-5 minutes of intense cardio to keep my heart rate up did another 3 sets until I had 3x3 then I’d switch muscle groups a bit for another 3x3. I wasn’t heavy lifting though so it’s a different strain. Usually took me on hour if I was lazy and dropped a set or two 40 minutes.
How I wrecked my back is I went too long. A leg day I did one more set of 3 which I handled. I went to the leg press for a final set but put the weights lite as a cool down set only 500 pounds. I accordioned like 3 into it. 500 pounds was way under my normal press that’s close to what I was squatting but muscle fatigue kicked in and my legs just gave out. It’s why I don’t think anyone seriously goes 4 hours they may be at the gym 4 hours but there are probably a ton of breaks.
I've been obsessed with being physically powerful since I was a teenager, and then I was a prize fighter for nearly a decade, so it's just ingrained at this point. I'll be lifting til I die.
That sucks bro. Lesser scale for me, but I know how it goes. Torn rotator cuff is what knocked me out of prize fighting. Damn thing never healed right.
The thing that a lot of people who don't strength train do not know is that once you stop, as long as you remain somewhat active and eat right, you don't usually lose a lot of mass or the look (outside of bodybuilder level of training), but your actual power diminishes rapidly.
-
Yeah, if I ever ran this edition (big if), I would have to tell players to ignore those times straight away (among other things).
I would maybe limit them to one expenditure between sessions, if I limit them at all. I've always just allowed downtime advancement between runs. And initiation taking months? No way ever. I used to just fold in ordeals to the runs themselves. Like have a crazy but enlightening magical threat they face so that the player can get the Karma discount, and skip the side quest rolls to get the benefit. Other than having to learn/buy spells as a Wizard in D&D, I can't think of the last game I played where downtime taxes were even used, much less so crazy high as this one. It's just not a thing any more.
Plus with the extremely stingy suggested rewards, players would almost never advance. No fun to be had there. Spend what you have.
Should seriously be reconsidered as a negative impact to player perception, even if stated as "optional". There's better things to spend the character count on. Like all the clarifications and missing rules for one. Save training times for a splatbook.