[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I don't have the rules so I am just guessing based on stuff I have read/pieced together. Chandra's response seems to imply that some extra minor actions are involved as well (though I thought the max was 2 Major + 2 minors which would seem to satisfy his post). Still, if that is possible, I expect 2 actions + 6 edge will be standard for most sams/gun adepts - maybe even mages depending on how magic works. It also seems to be the death of anything melee. Not that melee was strong in 5e/20th (don't recall the critical strike nerf version) but turning 4 edge into effectively target # initiative passes is insanely good - some might say gamebreaking.

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

[sn0mm1s]

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

Kind of weird the way that works. Generally, in SR, jobbers outnumber PCs. It seems it is better for jobbers to just use Edge to cancel PC use of Edge. Turns into a bizarre game of chicken and makes large Edge expenditures unlikely to work.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

Kind of weird the way that works. Generally, in SR, jobbers outnumber PCs. It seems it is better for jobbers to just use Edge to cancel PC use of Edge. Turns into a bizarre game of chicken and makes large Edge expenditures unlikely to work.

NPCs may often outnumber the PCs, but the group of PCs will usually have more edge than the group of NPCs will.  And cancelling an opponent's expenditure of Edge isn't very cost effective.. unless you're cancelling their last available point to spend.  But monkey-wrenching a massive outlay of edge? That's what it's perfect for.

[Moonshine Fox]

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

Kind of weird the way that works. Generally, in SR, jobbers outnumber PCs. It seems it is better for jobbers to just use Edge to cancel PC use of Edge. Turns into a bizarre game of chicken and makes large Edge expenditures unlikely to work.

I'd imagine your average gang mook or rent-a-guard wouldn't have much Edge to use. I figure you'd see it more amongst veteran gangers or threat response units.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It is based on simple order of operations, using your example your Edge never reaches 8 ... start at 6, spend 1 (now 5), then gain 2 (now 7).

Right, but it effectively gives a pool of 8.

I am more interested in something like this:
High init, 6 edge to start, 2 major actions.
1) Spend 4 edge to target everyone (probably limited based on reaction but whatever) with full dice pool (before any opposed tests occur) Edge now down to two.
2) Gain Edge based on opposed tests. Edge now up to 4
3) Shoot at everyone
4) Get 2nd attack
5) Spend 4 Edge to shoot at everyone with full pool. Edge now zero.

Edge never went above 6 but you effectively got to spend 8 Edge.

It seems like a fast gun bunny could probably attack everyone within range with his full dice pool - twice before they even get to act. Since it sounds like 6e is more lethal lots of fights could be ended by 1 fast gun bunny.

First of all: works as designed.

Secondly:
Share your revelation with the prognosticators who've been predicting that 6e abandoning initiative passes is the end of wired-up gun bunnies.

I don't have the rules so I am just guessing based on stuff I have read/pieced together. Chandra's response seems to imply that some extra minor actions are involved as well (though I thought the max was 2 Major + 2 minors which would seem to satisfy his post). Still, if that is possible, I expect 2 actions + 6 edge will be standard for most sams/gun adepts - maybe even mages depending on how magic works. It also seems to be the death of anything melee. Not that melee was strong in 5e/20th (don't recall the critical strike nerf version) but turning 4 edge into effectively target # initiative passes is insanely good - some might say gamebreaking.

Not so sure about that. With the lowered damages pretty light uses of edge might have that just wound a group. And I’d suspect there is a limit too how many you can shoot. Then start of next action bad guys unload on the dude out of cover who can’t dodge. While i suspect there will be wasted minors for people who have 4 and dodge etc it may be hard to get by using 0. And just having majors.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

Kind of weird the way that works. Generally, in SR, jobbers outnumber PCs. It seems it is better for jobbers to just use Edge to cancel PC use of Edge. Turns into a bizarre game of chicken and makes large Edge expenditures unlikely to work.

I'd imagine your average gang mook or rent-a-guard wouldn't have much Edge to use. I figure you'd see it more amongst veteran gangers or threat response units.

Do they even have individual edge or is it group edge. I hope the latter just for tracking purposes. Tracking 8 mooks edge just means they have 0 edge to avoid the pain in the ass that would be.

As an aside cancelling edge uses sounds like the most un-fun mechanic ever. Even more unfun than limits. It’s the kind of spoiler mechanic that works in a card game where turns zip back and forth dozens of times but will suck hard in a game where fights go 3 turns.

[Michael Chandra]

Since you'll really really want to save some simple actions to defend yourself with, spending 2 major actions for 2 attacks is probably going to be a rare move.

But yes, if you blow a whole lot of edge, it's got a whopping effect.  That's the entire idea.  But, inherently, dropping a ton of edge is not the sort of thing you can do turn after turn.  (Not to mention: if you're COUNTING on your edge effect, well that's the perfect time for the opponent to spend some of their own edge cancel your edge expenditure...)

Kind of weird the way that works. Generally, in SR, jobbers outnumber PCs. It seems it is better for jobbers to just use Edge to cancel PC use of Edge. Turns into a bizarre game of chicken and makes large Edge expenditures unlikely to work.

I'd imagine your average gang mook or rent-a-guard wouldn't have much Edge to use. I figure you'd see it more amongst veteran gangers or threat response units.

In SR5, grunts use Group Edge, not individual Edge. Doesn't matter how big the group is, the amount simply equals their PR.

As for SR6, I haven't reached that chapter yet and am not peeking ahead since it'd be covered under NDA anyway.

[Quantronic DreamViolence]

At no point in the one game I ran, did the players save up edge from an unrealistic reward and spend it later. They always used it pretty much used it immediately. If you are saving up and sitting on  your edge in 6e, you don't get the mechanic.

Given that it seems that edge doesn't carry over between scenes, and gets spent quickly, it sounds as though it is just working as a unified mechanic to simplify modifiers, rather than adding a serious gamist element, so that's in line with earlier editions. I'm now generally optimistic about the new rules, based on what I've seen and heard.

It can carry over up to your edge rating. Which represents minor stuff adding up to keep you in the saddle.

I.E. at the end of a fight the guy whose still got edge is the one moving just that second faster with his head still on a swivel and ready to rock.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

It is based on simple order of operations, using your example your Edge never reaches 8 ... start at 6, spend 1 (now 5), then gain 2 (now 7).

Right, but it effectively gives a pool of 8.

I am more interested in something like this:
High init, 6 edge to start, 2 major actions.
1) Spend 4 edge to target everyone (probably limited based on reaction but whatever) with full dice pool (before any opposed tests occur) Edge now down to two.
2) Gain Edge based on opposed tests. Edge now up to 4
3) Shoot at everyone
4) Get 2nd attack
5) Spend 4 Edge to shoot at everyone with full pool. Edge now zero.

Edge never went above 6 but you effectively got to spend 8 Edge.

It seems like a fast gun bunny could probably attack everyone within range with his full dice pool - twice before they even get to act. Since it sounds like 6e is more lethal lots of fights could be ended by 1 fast gun bunny.

First of all: works as designed.

Secondly:
Share your revelation with the prognosticators who've been predicting that 6e abandoning initiative passes is the end of wired-up gun bunnies.

Can this "revelation" be done two combat turns in a row (if needed)?  No?

Can this "revelation" be performed entirely by the gear your character spend Nuyen and Essence on (no other game mechanic required)?  No?

Can the previous wired up gun bunnies have their primary shtick outright cancelled by the opposition?  No?

Then you don't really have a point, do you?  No.

As usual you are trying to compare apples to prawns.

[sn0mm1s]

Can this "revelation" be done two combat turns in a row (if needed)?  No?

Wait... does this matter though? I am pretty sure this wasn't even close to possible in 5e. Using your full dice pool attacking everyone in range? A sniper is likely insanely good if this works as posted. Also, sometimes, doing something like this only once, or twice, is more than enough. Are you really advocating that a fast character should be able to attack everyone in range every round?

Can this "revelation" be performed entirely by the gear your character spend Nuyen and Essence on (no other game mechanic required)?  No?

Again, does it matter?  It seems like it would be pretty easy to do it once without much investment to start (4 edge rating). This is assuming there wasn't a way that you could get a full dice pool against all opponents in range previously. If there was a way to do this the "revelation" is pretty lackluster. But, if your goalposts are "no game can be good if mechanics are added/removed to the game that might affect the way a character is built" well... I'm not sure exactly what to say. The Edge attribute is important if you want to do this... no different than Reaction, or Magic, or any other build that you want a particular threshold hit.

Can the previous wired up gun bunnies have their primary shtick outright cancelled by the opposition?  No?

Yeah, not a fan of the potential cancellation, however, your teammates could give you Edge if they thought the action was worthwhile. Still an Edge "counterspell" use is pretty lame.

Then you don't really have a point, do you?  No.

I dunno, being able to (conservatively) make 12 or so full dice pool attacks before a single person gets to respond seems a rather good example of why a fast cybered gun bunny isn't a dead character build based on the new initiative system. I think that was the point he was trying to drive home.

As usual you are trying to compare apples to prawns.

I feel like I might have stepped into a family argument or something.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I wouldn’t call 12 attacks a conservative estimate. Multi attack might cap at 2 or 3 targets making it 4-6 in a turn.

[sn0mm1s]

I wouldn’t call 12 attacks a conservative estimate. Multi attack might cap at 2 or 3 targets making it 4-6 in a turn.

Were previous editions capped at Reaction? Dice pool splitting? I literally haven't looked at SR rules in years.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...

Can the previous wired up gun bunnies have their primary shtick outright cancelled by the opposition?  No?

Yeah, not a fan of the potential cancellation, however, your teammates could give you Edge if they thought the action was worthwhile. Still an Edge "counterspell" use is pretty lame.

To be fair I misread the action.. it's proactive in nature rather than a reactive cancel after the expenditure. So not quite AS bad as I made it sound. You might have edge stripped before you can spend your 4, but at least you won't spend 4 for no benefit.

Then you don't really have a point, do you?  No.

I dunno, being able to (conservatively) make 12 or so full dice pool attacks before a single person gets to respond seems a rather good example of why a fast cybered gun bunny isn't a dead character build based on the new initiative system. I think that was the point he was trying to drive home.

Yes.

[sn0mm1s]

...

Can the previous wired up gun bunnies have their primary shtick outright cancelled by the opposition?  No?

Yeah, not a fan of the potential cancellation, however, your teammates could give you Edge if they thought the action was worthwhile. Still an Edge "counterspell" use is pretty lame.

To be fair I misread the action.. it's proactive in nature rather than a reactive cancel after the expenditure. So not quite AS bad as I made it sound. You might have edge stripped before you can spend your 4, but at least you won't spend 4 for no benefit.

Then you don't really have a point, do you?  No.

I dunno, being able to (conservatively) make 12 or so full dice pool attacks before a single person gets to respond seems a rather good example of why a fast cybered gun bunny isn't a dead character build based on the new initiative system. I think that was the point he was trying to drive home.

Yes.

That makes a *huge* difference if it is a proactive expenditure rather than a reactive one. I don't find that a big deal at all now. Do the QS rules state what limits the # of targets for a multiple attack action?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I wouldn’t call 12 attacks a conservative estimate. Multi attack might cap at 2 or 3 targets making it 4-6 in a turn.

Were previous editions capped at Reaction? Dice pool splitting? I literally haven't looked at SR rules in years.

Editions have had different rules on it. 1-3e it was SA two shots up to 2 targets. BF 2 bursts up to 2 targets. FA you could split it into bursts each at a different target. Dual wielding doubling the above.

4e-5e i don’t remember the rule. If it’s reaction max that’s pretty silly that with a 10 shot burst you can separate and target each bullet. But maybe that was the rule and still is.