[MadBear]

I understand what nerfing means. And like I said, I think only the lower stat characters get nerfed, and in my opinion only in a reasonable way. Upper end stats actually make out better, are able to stack or much higher end results.

[Michael Chandra]

Actually, you said you weren't nerfing anything.

[ZeConster]

The only person who gets nerfed is the the 1 AGL character who wants an arm with 9 AGL and no other augmentations.

No, the "only" people who get nerfed are those who don't have their Strength/Agi (both if you want a fully-maxed out cyberlimb) hardcapped, as they suddenly need augmentations to get the same effect from their cyberlimb - something whose entire purpose is bypassing the need for augmentations. Even if you have Strength 5 and Agi 6, you'd still need to augment your Strength by +1 in order to get a 9/9 arm.
And yes, while it's also true that your houserule would allow for monstrosities like a Strength 11(15) Troll with a Strength 18 cyberarm, that doesn't negate the fact that people need to pay more to get the same bonus from their cyberlimbs as under RAW - so it's both a nerf and a gift to munchkins.

[martinchaen]

I'm also in the camp that believe cyberlimbs could do with some house rules, but I'm not a fan of the proposed change. In my opinion, cyberlimbs work just about right in the current iteration, but we've made some adjustments to the rules at our table:

1. Cyberlimbs affect inherent limits if and when the limb(s) are used in a task
2. Cyberlimbs affect movement rate as long as the character has at least two legs; for purposes of movement rate and running tests the characters AGI and STR stats are averaged across natural / augmented attributes and limbs (arm, arm, leg, leg, torso)
3. Hydraulic Jacks contribute dice equal to rating for purposes of running (as opposed to the 1 die contribution per RAW)

Nuyen and essence costs, availability, and general rules remain unaffected. Yes, these changes make cyberlimbs more effective, but we do not have any characters with AGI/STR 1 with the exception of 1, and said character has spent over 400k nuyen on replacing four limbs so we feel it evens out.

[MadBear]

Well it's clear the consensus is from a game mechanic point of view this does not work.
From the perspective of making things work in my mind, it makes a lot more sense, and I reserve the right to be an obstinate twat.

[ZeConster]

Consensus? You do realize that martinchaen falls in the "cyberlimb attributes should affect more things" camp (which means he thinks they should be boosted), while others fall in the "cyberlimbs should be nerfed from orbit" camp? And there's a third camp, too - the "just veto cyberlimb-abusing characters". There is no consensus.

[martinchaen]

ZeConster I believe MadBear (please correct me if I'm wrong) meant that the consensus was that his proposal would not work.

And yes, I do indeed believe cyberlimbs should be boosted; for their cost, I do not believe they are cost effective under the current RAW. I also believe there is way too much room for interpretation, and would never play a character with cyberlimbs in a convention setting purely to avoid the headache of having to clarify with each individual GM about their views on cyberlimbs. The rules are too vague on what stats apply when for a character to reliably predict what individual GMs might interpret the rules as, in my opinion. I, for instance, do not agree that running or climbing requires "careful coordination" of all limbs; if my unmodified self can climb a vertical rope with nothing but my arms, the rules for climbing and cyberlimbs are way too situational for them to be worth the hassle.

Besides, for the same cost (400k and 5 Essence), you can get similar (or better, under RAW at least, with regards to limits and movement rate) benefits, which hardly seems appropriate.

[MadBear]

Ze, I understand that cyberlimbs are one of the more contentious items in the game. However, the only people motivated enough to comment seemed to be from Martin's camp.
For the purposes of this form post, I'm fine with that; as in challenging me they forced me to to realize that the current RAW will tend to cluster cyber limb stats at around 9, while my proposal would tend to spread out the stats, with a much higher upper end, and potential abuse. I can deal with that abuse as a GM just as I could with abuse of un-nerfing Critical Strike with a house rule, as I intend.
There are many opinions being bandied about, mine and others, and that's how I take this, opinionated discussion.

[ZeConster]

Ze, I understand that cyberlimbs are one of the more contentious items in the game. However, the only people motivated enough to comment seemed to be from Martin's camp.

So I guess I don't count? Because I'm in camp 3. Plus I have my own proposed houserule for cyberlimbs, which prevents characters with Str/Agi 1 or 2 (pre-racial modifiers) from having a maxed out cyberlimb while still allowing the maximum cyberlimb bonus to be more than the augmentation limit.

[MadBear]

No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?

[ZeConster]

No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?

Well, I could link you to three of the four times I've mentioned my proposed houserule in the past (one of them as part of a post listing several possible houserule for this in the houserule topic), but how about you read the time where I mentioned it in the third post of this very topic?

[MadBear]

Ah, there you are, I recall that proposal, I didn't remember that was you. And that came across to me as more of a 'your idea won't work' than 'there are more than one camp on how cyberlimbs work', but that could have been failure on my part to understand.
A first glance of the links you posted shows you've given this a great deal of thought, and I plan on reading the discussion further. But still, that is more of a game mechanic fix, which is perfect if that where you see the RAW flaw. My issue is less with that, than making things jive between meat and metal with a explanation that works for me. Clearly plenty of people have no problem with things as they stand, and others object, so for me at least, this is more of a 'this is how I'd do it' kind of thing. There are people with suspension of disbelief issues with grenades, or sniper rifles, or even DNIs, we all have our peculiarities, and focus on those things that glaring dont work for us.
As for my games, as I'm not the GM at the moment, I am playing RAW.
Reading replies in one thread, it seems A4BG and Xenon seem to agree at least part of my idea, setting the limbs attributes to the character's natural attribute, with a cost approximating that of Customization.
When I think about how these things are supposed to work, I see a mechanical prosthetic that is customzed to fit the user's body. And I have a problem with this customization taking a limb's attributes higher than those of the body. I don't have a problem with ending up with higher stats through Enhancements. So I'm not looking for statistical limitations. What you propose, ZeConster, seems to suggest that a cybernetic limb should only be able to function so much higher than it's flesh body without losing functionality, balance, or without ripping itself off. Not putting words in your mouth here, just an interpretation.
Another of my issues, as I've stated repeatedly, and no one has yet offered a solution after countering my suggestion, is how it it's possible for a maximum enhanced limb to do less unarmed damage than a flesh limb(with proper Bone Lacing). Then I got to thinking about how and why players purchase limbs for their characters. Not why the characters do it, why their payers do. For me, every character I've ever created who had such a limb lost their flesh one in battle, and either could not afford a cloned, or figured that if they lost Essense from a Deadly wound anyway, why not fill up that void with a limb? So for me, and this may be coloring my perspective here, limbs are not purchased to have a kick ass stat, they are an after thought, an accident, a repair. But then I realize there are many players who get them solely for the stat bump(and some because they are cool, etc). And for those characters, making a cyberlimb jive with a flesh limb is not an issue and RAW work just fine.

[The Bald Man]

No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?

Well, I could link you to three of the four times I've mentioned my proposed houserule in the past (one of them as part of a post listing several possible houserule for this in the houserule topic), but how about you read the time where I mentioned it in the third post of this very topic?

I've been following the cyberlimb discussion also...explains why I have seen the 'normalizing to racial baseline' idea a few times. 
I like the give and take. 
Give: (assuming I understood correctly) the troll would spend 3 points of customization to the max, instead of 7.
Take: minimum current attribute for various augments. 

If I were to make a houserule I would include that. 

Additionally I would make the baseline cyberlimbs match current values so someone heavily invested in STR and AGI wouldn't have to spend a lot in the customization phase, while those that skimped would have to spend a little more. 

[ZeConster]

The base houserule I've been using would still require 7 points of customization for a Troll: the "treat racial minimum as 1" bit is only used to calculate how powerful a cyberlimb you can use, since it's there to prevent the Troll from going "I have Strength 5 (my racial minimum), and 5x3 = 15, so I can have a Strength 10+3 cyberarm without investing any attribute points in Strength".
Ignoring Exceptional Attribute (which I think you shouldn't take unless you soft/hardcap the attribute in question, in which case the best a cyberlimb can be compared to your natural value is +4 anyway), you basically have this:

Metatype	Natural STR	max cyberlimb STR		Metatype	Natural AGI	max cyberlimb AGI
Human/Elf	1	3		non-Elf	1	3
Human/Elf	2	6		non-Elf	2	6
Human/Elf	3+	9		non-Elf	3+	9
Dwarf/Ork	3	5		Elf	2	4
Dwarf/Ork	4	8		Elf	3	7
Dwarf/Ork	5+	11		Elf	4+	10
Troll	5	7
Troll	6	10
Troll	7+	13

So there's no give, just a take (2 attribute points must be invested if you want to fully max out a cyberlimb's attribute; if you invest 1 attribute point, your cyberlimb's attribute can only go up to your natural maximum).
My post (in the houserule topic) does have the added idea of each metatype having a different cyberlimb base model (set to the race's version of 3/3), which has the same nuyen costs but a slightly lower Availability for non-humans, meaning that unlike in RAW, anyone can get a fully customized cyberlimb at chargen (under RAW, a Troll's 10/5 cyberlimb has Availability 13).

With your baseline cyberlimbs houserule idea, I'd make them a third cyberlimb category (working mostly the same as regular customized cyberlimbs; you could give them a fixed cost, give them a fixed cost that differs per metatype, or make their cost and availability go up with higher stats, but less than with normal customization), so people with low STR/AGI can still get a regular 3/3 cyberlimb without paying more than now.