[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Yadda yadda, I wanna buy stuff legally on my 'legal' fake SIN.

Go right ahead.

Shadowrun assumes you want to use stuff illegally.  Its rules are couched in such a way as to presume that.  Its rules say, "Okay, if you want to buy a pistol / sport rifle / cyberdeck / ChibiThulu fuzzybot, this is what you have to do in order to cover your tracks."  You want to do it 'legally', using your fake SIN?  Great.  Here's the kicker - when you do that, you burn more than the SIN.  Using a legally-bought anything leaves traces as you go.  Can you go down to FancyPants and purchase something Ridonkulously Expensive?  Yeah, yeah you can with your valid SIN - but you better make sure it's rating 6+, because that's the level of credit- and ID-check they put you through TODAY, and if you think a top-end retailer takes flashcash/certified credsticks in SR without sending a full holo of your ugly fraggin' mug down to KE, Lone Star, and every other cop shop operating in your district of the Sprawl, you got another think coming.

Those ARO tags are all talking to each other all the time.  You can say you're shutting it down, and sure, you do - but there's a friggin' record, and that 'legal' gun sends one last 'hey, I'm getting shut down!!' yelp to Central.  Turn it on again, and the thing will send right back to Central what it's done and where it's been.  Why?  Because that's what they do.  Going into the black market is more than just buying the damn weapon or vehicle, it's making sure it isn't going to be blabbing an event report to its home databases every time it's turned off and on.

In addition - and maybe this is just me - but there are safety measures applied to certain things.  You think you can hack with your legally-bought cyberdeck?  Sure you can, and the beat cop from outside your doss is going to give you dump shock by unplugging you after every system you hit screams your location.  Likewise, your legally-purchased car is going to be able to be turned off remotely, your fraggin' gun - if legally purchased - is going to have all the Peace Officer Overrides (POO!!) still active, which means Johnny Cycle Cop is going to hit an AR button and shut down your superfast motorcycle, then hit another and turn off your 'burned SIN' legal gun, because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them.  (N.B. - They take care of those things before they sell them in part because they'd get their asses fried too.)

Just because you turned it 'off' doesn't mean you pulled the power pack and fried the circuitry.

Is any of this in the rules?  No.  Is it in the fluff?  Technically, I don't believe so, no.  Is it heavily implied??  Yes, yes, a thousand places yes.  You want to purchase something legally, that's what you do with your High and Luxury Lifestyle.  There's a reason that crap is rolled into 'lifestyle' and not covered - because if you're anything remotely resembling a competent shadowrunner, all the stuff you use and get 'with your lifestyle' - like the car you get as part of a Middle Lifestyle, or the limo and servants you'll have with that Luxury Lifestyle - you don't use when you're running.  You purchase your 'runner' stuff seperately, buying things in back alleys, going through hoops to make sure stuff is wiped, making very, very good friends indeed with the people whose jobs it is to cater to the very rich and very private.

You want to go against RAW, fine - but doing so means you need to internalize the intent of the game, which you clearly aren't doing.

[Warmachinez]

Nice Wyrm... You wrote what I was thinking, but could not properly articulate (in writin).

Well done!

[spuwdsda]

Ad hominem...

Is what you're constantly resorting to rather than trying to have a civil discussion, yes.

Where?

[Chance359]

Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it. 

If you want something that isn't connected to your real identity or current fake, you need to go through the black market.  Part of what you're paying for someone taking the time to alter all the security tags on something and transfering ownership to you. (p234 "Hardware toolkit and an Extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour) test."

I miss the old days when some gear was just listed as "always available" and everything else had a threshold and a time to determine how long it took to get instead of the current "it costs more so it takes more time".  (Ares Predator 3/24 hours)

[ZeConster]

Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.

While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.

Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard, or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.

Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate).

Availability: The higher the Availability of an item, the more difficult and costly it is to get it (see Buying Gear, p. 416). Gear without an Availability rating can be bought at an appropriate local store or ordered online without any trouble. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). Items without a letter in parentheses are considered legal—they aren’t necessarily easy to find, but you won’t ever get arrested for seeking them (see (Il)legality, p. 419.

[Xenon]

Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.

While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.

And that is the reason we have this discussion in the first place.

If it is a legal item, then you should be able to buy it legally (and leaving a data trail) even if it might take you a few hours or even days before you can find where you can buy it because it is not a common item. RAW tell us you have to resort to the black market (or house rule it).

If you have a permit (or a very solid fake one that will pass all the tests when you buy the item), then you should be able to buy a restricted item legally (and leaving a data trail). RAW tell us we have to resort to the black market (or house rule it).

Not a big deal really, but it still feel very strange that you by RAW must visit the black market if you wish to buy a freekin commlink

[spuwdsda]

... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them. 

Would you like to retract that?

[Nico]

I think most people in this threat could stand to curb the hostility a bit. Or at least stop being hypocrites and pointing fingers and calling out the rudeness of others while continuing to spew venom.

Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.

While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.

Not a big deal really, but it still feel very strange that you by RAW must visit the black market if you wish to buy a freekin commlink

On the other hand a Comlink would be one of the worst things to leave a datatrail with. All your contacts, where you went, ARO interaction profiling, financial records etc. etc. I agree that it's weird that you can't just buy one, but on the other hand if you did just buy one legally, it'd be a huge liability during runs.

Things you want to use privately, on the other hand, may not have to be bought using game mechanics after all. If a lifestyle can cover your car, trid-viewer and intelligent fridge, why shouldn't it cover a private comlink (one that you should probably leave at home when on runs or during legwork)?

[ZeConster]

... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them. 

Would you like to retract that?

You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.

[spuwdsda]

... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them. 

Would you like to retract that?

You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.

And by short inference the player of said character (me).

[Mirikon]

If the shoe fits...

[Novocrane]

For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.

Huh. (thanks ZeConster) Doesn't this mean that, should someone decide to physically schlep to a store, the GM is within rights to reduce the Availability of items there to AV:--?

[ZeConster]

For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.

Huh. (thanks ZeConster) Doesn't this mean that, should someone decide to physically schlep to a store, the GM is within rights to reduce the Availability of items there to AV:--?

Depends on how exclusive their clientele is: some of the fashion companies in SR4 Arsenal may refuse to service you, for example. But yes, if you're in the store (which will be somewhat more specialized than your typical Stuffer Shack or the like), and they have the item in store, and they're willing to sell for you, I don't really see why not. Finding the store that sells the item you want is the tricky part, after all.
And yes, GM discretion grants opportunities. If your character doesn't mind leaving a datatrail for a certain product category, I could see how a GM might make you do some sort of check to find the store, and then make you fill out some paperwork for them to put you on their mailing list (think of it like a Loyalty 1 contact). Then, if you need something, your GM could determine if they have it in stock (which basically reduces the Availability to -- for just that store) or if it takes time.
Actually, Michael houseruled contacts like that for our 4th-edition campaign: if it was within their area of expertise, he made a die roll that determined whether the contact happened to have some in stock at the moment.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them. 

Would you like to retract that?

You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.

And by short inference the player of said character (me).

I rarely retract anything, and I'm certainly not retracting that.  Online, you are what you show yourself to be.  You're showing yourself to be a paranoid pedant.  If you want to presume that I'm calling you a moron - which I wasn't, but hey - then by all means, presume away.  I'm not going to apologize for or make a retraction in regards to your damn presumptions, though.

At this point, spuwdsda, you really should be apologizing for one or two dozen bits of offensive behavior yourself, and considering exactly what we're telling you, instead of focussing your attention on a piddly little three-word comment you feel applies to you.

[All4BigGuns]

Come on now. He was perfectly fine until Micheal Chandra started copping attitude with him in refusing to answer a perfectly valid question simply because he "didn't feel like answering".

I didn't miss the question. I am, however, not interested in thinking up an answer.

This is completely uncalled for and not at all respectful. Any snark from the OP came after this comment.


You, Wyrm, were quite needlessly condescending, and yes you should apologize for your comment because you did in fact call him "moron" however indirectly.