Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: spuwdsda on <11-14-13/0838:53>
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Looking at p418, it appears that you only need to test availability if you purchase the item on the black market.
"To purchase an item off the books, make an availability test." P418.
So this implies that if you use a fake/real SIN, the item is legal or you have a licence for it, then there is no test. Is this correct, as it seems at odds with the p416 section on standard goods.
What about delivery?
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Black Market Goods are opposed by Standard Goods, which are "Standard items with no Availability rating". So you roll a test for any item that has a non-zero Availability Rating since they are only available if you go through tougher channels.
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Joe Average, UCAS national with no criminal record, wants to buy a bow (rating 3).
He walks into his local sporting supplies store and looks for the bows and crossbow section. Joe cannot find any though... Enquiring a member of staff he is informed that bows - although legal to own without a licence - are not available for general sale. The shop cannot even order him one...
On the way out of the shop an anonymous message pops up on his comlink. "I might be able to help you out. Meet me at Reno's at 10pm. Bring a certified credstick."
Joe shakes his head. What a crazy world.
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Strange that SR5 does not describe how to buy goods with an availability rating while keeping the data trail.
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If you disagree with it, houserule it. It's dead simple, really.
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Out of interest, do you agree with it?
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That rarer legal items still take time to find? Yes. However, I wouldn't necessarily wrap it all into the black market.
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Of course you can buy items on the record. Not using the black market. There are several legal items that you according to rules only can buy on the black market without leaving a data trail. That is just silly.
As I said. Strange that they didn't bother to explain it in the book.
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To Michael:
Custom items, things made to order and/or made to measure. These obviously have lead times.
For example. Last time I brought a sofa, it took 7 weeks to arrive. I wonder what availability rating sofas have in SR5? But what about mass produced items like a comlink? Surely a SINner can walk into a downtown electronic store and walk out with a Fairlight Caliban if he has the credit?
So some things (sofas) can have low availability, but long lead times. Some things (like Fairlight Calibans) can have 14 availability, but common sense suggests should be 'in stock' somewhere in a city like Seattle. Plenty of 1%ers would be able to drop 8k on a shiny thing and someone will be selling it.
So, do SINners need to go to the black market for comlinks? Sofas? No. Imo, that would be ridiculous. Do you agree?
What legal items would you include in the black market and which would you exclude? One or two examples should do.
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I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.
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Matter of opinion. I can walk into Harrods can walk out with any sort of ridiculously exclusive and expensive things. £30,000 iPods for instance. I doubt SR is any different.
However, you seem to have missed my key question.
What legal items (with an availability rating) would you have as only black market and which in stores?
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I didn't miss the question. I am, however, not interested in thinking up an answer.
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I don't believe you are able to. Not one that sustains your position.
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Honestly, with your tone I don't feel like proving you wrong.
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I doubt that...
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Spuwdsda, roll back the attitude. You're sounding like a certain Alaskan ex-Governor and her beverage-celebrating cronies.
As for your 'question', actually think for a goddamn second. Can you, say, walk up to Walmart and purchase a SOTA TV? No. To find the really high end gear, you first have to go and actually find someone who sells it, which takes time. Then you have to find someone that not only sells it, but is also willing to sell to you, which takes more time (especially if you are the wrong race/class, don't have a SIN, or other such things). There are a bunch of other possible concerns, but since Shadowrun isn't an economics simulator, it gets simplified into 'Availability'.
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I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.
sure. i didn't say every k-mart should stock every item in the book, just saying you should still be able to buy it ON the record without having to resort to the black market just because it have an available rating above null.
as written you can't buy an empty spare clip, a speed loader, an imaging scope, concealable holster, armor jacket, a helmet, mapsofts, linguasofts, an empty gold credstick, survival kit, datajack or not even a very cheap commlink (by RAW you actually have to buy all commlinks from the black market :p)
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Spuwdsda, roll back the attitude. You're sounding like a certain Alaskan ex-Governor and her beverage-celebrating cronies.
As for your 'question', actually think for a goddamn second. Can you, say, walk up to Walmart and purchase a SOTA TV? No. To find the really high end gear, you first have to go and actually find someone who sells it, which takes time. Then you have to find someone that not only sells it, but is also willing to sell to you, which takes more time (especially if you are the wrong race/class, don't have a SIN, or other such things). There are a bunch of other possible concerns, but since Shadowrun isn't an economics simulator, it gets simplified into 'Availability'.
The question is: What legal items (with an availability rating) would you have as only black market and which in stores?
Your answer doesn't address this question.
P.S. For the record, I see myself more like Mr Paxman in this.
http://youtu.be/Uwlsd8RAoqI
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I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.
sure. i didn't say every k-mart should stock every item in the book, just saying you should still be able to buy it ON the record without having to resort to the black market just because it have an available rating above null.
as written you can't buy an empty spare clip, a speed loader, an imaging scope, concealable holster, armor jacket, a helmet, mapsofts, linguasofts, an empty gold credstick, survival kit, datajack or not even a very cheap commlink (by RAW you actually have to buy all commlinks from the black market :p)
It could be more like shipping time. That they have to special order your commlink or bow, for example. While perfectly legal, the store you visited just doesn't keep them in stock.
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This is because Shadowrun is not a simulation game, like the Sims. Things get simplified so that you can actually play the game at the table, instead of going through a macroeconomics textbook, or getting your business degree. Anything that isn't Standard Goods, gets simplified into 'Black Market Goods' which has an availability test and a wait time. If it makes you feel better, then say your SINner bought his commlink through legal channels, and had to wait for it to ship from the supplier.
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Imo there is a clear gap in the SR5 ruleset here.
Apply the black market rules to retail purchases, is a solution. In fact it is arguably RAI. However, imo this seems over the top in terms of difficulty. I didn't feel I was making a Negotiation + Charisma roll when I purchased my last smartphone.
Imo purchasing retail should be easier than the black market. As a house rule I would consider a -6 to availability rating. This would take many common items to 0 and so could be off the shelf items. Perhaps the roll could be Logic + Computer too, as you can shop about online for price and delivery time.
So there's a fix. Just a little common sense. No business degrees needed.
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I'm with Mirikon here. To give another example (from 4th edition, but that hasn't changed) the Zoé evening gown (availability 10). Do you have to go through the black market to get one. Absolutely not. But say you have found the Zoé store in Seattle and you're inside. Zoé makes dresses to fit as they should (which is one of the reasons they are so expensive). So the first time you go there, they take measurements. Then they tell you to come back in three weeks to check on the dress (it will be ready in one, but to keep it exclusive and to make sure they can deliver even if there's a problem somewhere, they add two more). Then you come back and you try it on, after which they need two more hours to make those final adjustments. That's why it has such a high availability, not because you need to go through black market channels.
During those weeks they will also have tried to figure out if you can actually pay for the dress.
Another option is because the manufacturer wants to keep the product exclusive and/or drive up the price. Commlinks will probably be the best example of this. Think of a modern day iPhone. You can get one at a lot of places, but you often have to wait quite some time before one is available, especially at the start of a new product, because of slow production, shipping problems and the will of Apple to do it like this.
Third reason why legal stuff can have an availability is because there simply isn't much of the product, no matter what the manufacturer or service provider does. As example take a cruise to Antartica. The cruise season there is only a couple of months long and there are only so many boats allowed. Therefore there's a waiting list and high prices, which in shadowrun is translated into an availability rating. In this last case you might get jumped on the list if you know the right people and give them a little something extra, giving it a 'black market' like feeling, even though the product is completely legal.
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Looking at p418, it appears that you only need to test availability if you purchase the item on the black market.
"To purchase an item off the books, make an availability test." P418.
So this implies that if you use a fake/real SIN, the item is legal or you have a licence for it, then there is no test. Is this correct, as it seems at odds with the p416 section on standard goods.
What about delivery?
So I am mildly annoyed with this because the questions are answered in the book. However, if you have never played SR before you may not understand how all these things work. First look at page 416 and 418 as he has quoted and read the whole thing not just a sentence or two. Second I would refer you to page 366-368 which covers Identity SINs and licenses legal and illegal and what you can do with those. Now in that section plus page 419 on Legality it points out that you can buy that Fairlight Caliban fake or real and then use it for illegal activities you will probably get in trouble. Now for the real SINners out there this may not even enter their minds that the Caliban can be used for something illegal. In fact they probably picked it up to get that extra edge in Miracle Shooter or just for bragging rights. Also we like to think that runners are the only law breakers in the game but there are other criminals out there such as organized crime types. They may have a legal SIN and I have no doubt that they have a legally owned, licensed, and registered Ares Viper Sliver Gun for their house but say the guy is a hitman who likes to use SMG's I doubt he bought that legally or if he did he has it assigned to his legal SIN. As for delivery that is covered under how you bought it legally or illegally your GM makes a simple delivery time table test on page 418.
Availability is just like everything else in a RP game it is a guideline. If you are running missions, part of the demo teams, or doing sanctioned games then they are rules if you are running your own game with your own interpretations then it is just that a guideline. An example I can use is Bogota 2075 just recently was a warzone and they are recovering from that so I doubt the local commlink shops are worried if they can get a Fairlight Caliban right now or if the local commlink shops are even open. Where would the availability on other standard goods stand? Or for example Neo-Tokyo has strict laws on anything over a light pistol (as per 4th edition) how do you get a hold of what would generally be a reasonably affordable and while restriceted SMG?
Now personally I am a bit of a perfectionist so I would purchase multiple Fake SINs and licenses for all my weapons, equipment, and even lifestyles. I would have it where my lifestyle was attached to one SIN. My weapons and gear on another SIN. I would also own multiples of the same weapons and gear for the purpose of going out or going to a job meeting. That way I have a lot of bases covered and as a game went on I would acquire more for safehouses, bank accounts, and other necessities. Playing a runner can be as simple or complicated as you want honestly it just a matter of your perception.
More than likely things like Availability like most things will be better addressed in other books like it has in the past.
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Spwudsda, you're also not a SINless shadowrunner. Maybe Joe Wageslave doesn't have to go through as many hoops to get gear. Then again, he's a good corp drone, with his SIN, and doesn't mind (and maybe even wants) the corps to know what he is buying, so they can better tailor their ads to suit his needs. Maybe he got his license for that bow legally, and bought it from a legal supplier. But a shadowrunner is going to have to think twice about doing things openly like that, because A) most of them don't have a SIN, and B) most of them would rather not have the corps (and Knight Errant) knowing that they just got 200 spare clips for their Ares Predator V, because purchase records and the like make for data trails that the corps can use to find you when you do something to hurt them (like most runs). The rules are made with Shadowrunners in mind, not Joe Wageslave.
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To Mirikon and Bill30548
Thanks. I was aware of all this however...
Most shadowrunners will have one or more fake SINs.
The Joe Average in my example was in fact Razor McNails, a SINless shadowrunner using a fake SIN. He is well aware that this purchase will be recorded against his Joe Average SIN, he doesn't mind. That's his choice. He is aware of the risks, but in this instance he believes them manageable. He wants the bow quickly and such bows are on the rack at many retailers within the city.
However, currently the RAW do not give him this option.
P366-368 explains very well all about SINs real and fake. It explains the risk of buying things on a fake SIN. The section in p418 is titled 'Black Market Goods'. The associate text and table are clearly about purchasing on the black market. Nowhere is there mechanics on how items with >0 availability are purchased retail. To suggest otherwise is an error. I am sorry if mentioning this annoys you Bill. However, I think you are perhaps being a little over-sensitive.
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yes I understand that some things might have delivery times and something might be very time consuming to get your hands on (even through legal channels).
But by RAW you can't buy anything ON the record if it have an availability code. Even if it is legal and does not require a permit or license of any kind. And even if it have a low availability of 2. By RAW you have to buy it OFF the record using the black market.
Guess it is only me and spuwdsda that find that to be... odd :)
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In my tabletop group, we often ignore those rules (if they are the same in 4th, because we haven't played 5th yet). If we want to buy, to use my previous example, a Zoé dress, we can do so and the GM will just say something like 'it takes you three weeks'. Probably a houserule, but you're allowed to make those. :)
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Exactly. It's a hole and we can houserule it. What's I find perplexing is how some people are maintaining that we have it wrong... That this hole doesn't exist.
Perhaps they are floating down a river admiring the pyramids?
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Sure, maybe having a suit tailor made has a wait time. But do you then still need to make all those availability rolls for it? Why? It is available: someone is making it for you right now! It should just have a wait time then.
I'd like to hear from people here what they tell their player in this situation:
Player: "I go to a hunting shop!"
GM: "Alright."
Player: "I enter and look at the merchandise."
GM: "Ok?"
Player: "I take a nice bow off the shelves and pay for it with my R6 Fake SIN as cover!"
Surely you don't go "Alright, roll to see how many days it'll take you." at that point?
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Actually, you do: The bow won't actually be in stock, but you'll just see a nice ARO of it. Then you smoothtalk them into ordering it for you and depending on how nice you are, they try harder or don't bother and tell you after a few days "sorry, your order fell through".
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Sure, maybe having a suit tailor made has a wait time. But do you then still need to make all those availability rolls for it? Why? It is available: someone is making it for you right now! It should just have a wait time then.
I'd like to hear from people here what they tell their player in this situation:
Player: "I go to a hunting shop!"
GM: "Alright."
Player: "I enter and look at the merchandise."
GM: "Ok?"
Player: "I take a nice bow off the shelves and pay for it with my R6 Fake SIN as cover!"
Surely you don't go "Alright, roll to see how many days it'll take you." at that point?
No, but after he uses that bow in a crime, I'll have the Pawns register his Fake SIN as a person of interest to watchout for. And if he purchases another item send the Pawns to pick him up, since he just left a paper trail leading to himself. And while its possible that he'll just go in for a bit of questioning, if they find any other illegal gear on him, he'll be arrested.
Though, it might not escalate that quickly. I was just exaggerating to make the point.
But keeping things off the record is moderately important for professional criminals. So you probably want gear that's completely illegal, and not just stuff tied to your fake SIN.
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Actually, you do: The bow won't actually be in stock, but you'll just see a nice ARO of it. Then you smoothtalk them into ordering it for you and depending on how nice you are, they try harder or don't bother and tell you after a few days "sorry, your order fell through".
I don't think a business like this which has nothing in stock makes any actual sense, from a business standpoint. The first place to actually have things in stock would make a killing over their competition. Why even have physical stores if you end up having to order anyway? They'd all just be matrix stores then. So no, I do not think this answer satisfactory.
And DeathStrobe, we're on the same page there. The argument was never to have there be 0 consequence for the PC, but sometimes you just want/need a piece of gear right away, now, and are prepared to face the consequences later. Or you're so well prepared that you manage to avoid problems. It's a bit of work, but possible. (A bow in particular is going to be hard to track, I'd say. Other items a bit easier though.)
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I don't think a business like this which has nothing in stock makes any actual sense, from a business standpoint. The first place to actually have things in stock would make a killing over their competition.
Logic seems to be pointing in the direction of "that's not done / legal." If they have to resort to illegal methods to provide such a market, you might refer to it with some colour that has negative connotations to contrast with the legal method ...
I could be completely wrong here, but when something brings up responses like yours quoted, it makes me wonder.
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No, but after he uses that bow in a crime, I'll have the Pawns register his Fake SIN as a person of interest to watchout for. And if he purchases another item send the Pawns to pick him up, since he just left a paper trail leading to himself. And while its possible that he'll just go in for a bit of questioning, if they find any other illegal gear on him, he'll be arrested.
Though, it might not escalate that quickly. I was just exaggerating to make the point.
But keeping things off the record is moderately important for professional criminals. So you probably want gear that's completely illegal, and not just stuff tied to your fake SIN.
It's a management of risk. A gun will leave a unique mark on any round it fires. If Joe Average (aka Razor McNail) brought a gun on a fake SIN and used it in a crime, then Joe Average may be wanted for questioning. Effectively that SIN is burnt. Worse, the shop might have a Trid recording of Joe/Razor. However, this is all beside the point! None of this is a point of dispute!
Whether or not a shop like http://www.lancasterarchery.com/ exists near Joe/Razor, is also beside the point. These things are entirely ymmv things, up to individual GMs/groups to decide.
For those who already know my point, I apologise for belabouring it. However, it seems I have not been clear enough for some.
My position is: There are no mechanics by RAW to buy items, with availability, retail. I would have appreciated some.
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Availability for legal items could show how likely they are to be sold out or not a commonly stocked item. The waiting time would be the shop making it or getting one in for you, or police and credit checks. Change the test to something else that better represents dealing with the sales clerk if you like.
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[...] if you have never played SR before you may not understand how all these things work.
Is no one else worried by how casually this line is strewn in?
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You don't need to understand the details, really. You see you roll for any item that doesn't have a - as Availability, so you ask your contacts to do it for you and the GM handles it.
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You don't need to understand the details, really. You see you roll for any item that doesn't have a - as Availability, so you ask your contacts to do it for you and the GM handles it.
Sorry, you need to clarify your position.
Are you proposing, a house rule, that buying retail should by treated mechanically exactly like a black market purchase?
N.B. I am making no comment on the merits of this house rule. I just want to know whether you are suggesting one or not. Or are you maintaining that your views are RAW or RAI?
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It just occured to me, that in Chasin' the Wind (SR Mission 5-1), there is a scene, [spoiler]where characters come to some kind of tech-market, and the adventure allows to buy anything up to A4-6 (I don't remember exactly) without rolling. Like, you're already at a market, no need to spend time looking for stuff.[/spoiler]
You could always use that as a guideline. I'm cool with my players rolling though.
slipped
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Sorry, you need to clarify your position.
No I don't. I stepped out of your debate because you made clear you did not want an actual debate, that you merely wanted me to state a position so that you could bash it down. The fact that you now went to actually denying RAW rather than just debating RAI, shows this isn't a debate at all, it's a show. And I stepped out of it, so I will not be dragged back into it by a demand to clarify myself.
My post has NOTHING to do with your debate. It merely responded to someone's concern regarding new players and their understanding of the rules. So no, I do not need to clarify my position to you.
[...] if you have never played SR before you may not understand how all these things work.
Is no one else worried by how casually this line is strewn in?
You don't need to understand the details, really. You see you roll for any item that doesn't have a - as Availability, so you ask your contacts to do it for you and the GM handles it.
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Sorry, you need to clarify your position.
No I don't. I stepped out of your debate because you made clear you did not want an actual debate, that you merely wanted me to state a position so that you could bash it down. The fact that you now went to actually denying RAW rather than just debating RAI, shows this isn't a debate at all, it's a show. And I stepped out of it, so I will not be dragged back into it by a demand to clarify myself.
My post has NOTHING to do with your debate. It merely responded to someone's concern regarding new players and their understanding of the rules. So no, I do not need to clarify my position to you.
But you just did..
My claim is: There is no RAW mechanics for purchasing, items with availability, retail.
Your claim is: I am denying RAW
Your problem is that you cannot defend your claim. So you evade. Defend your claim or let your evasion/silence be your testimony.
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Your problem is that you cannot defend your claim. So you evade. Defend your claim or let your evasion/silence be your testimony.
The only thing it testifies is that someone here lacks manners and so nobody bothers with helping or getting involved in your "debate".
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Ad hominem...
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you might also want to buy the item ON the records to create false dead end leads, as a first step to set someone up for a murder they did not commit or to have a valid data trail to enhance the fake identity you are building up for a particular run... there are probably ton of reasons why you at least would want to have the option to buy items ON the record and not just OFF the record from the black market...
(please open a new thread or use PM if you want to continue to discuss general forum etiquette)
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Ad hominem...
Is what you're constantly resorting to rather than trying to have a civil discussion, yes.
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Yadda yadda, I wanna buy stuff legally on my 'legal' fake SIN.
Go right ahead.
Shadowrun assumes you want to use stuff illegally. Its rules are couched in such a way as to presume that. Its rules say, "Okay, if you want to buy a pistol / sport rifle / cyberdeck / ChibiThulu fuzzybot, this is what you have to do in order to cover your tracks." You want to do it 'legally', using your fake SIN? Great. Here's the kicker - when you do that, you burn more than the SIN. Using a legally-bought anything leaves traces as you go. Can you go down to FancyPants and purchase something Ridonkulously Expensive? Yeah, yeah you can with your valid SIN - but you better make sure it's rating 6+, because that's the level of credit- and ID-check they put you through TODAY, and if you think a top-end retailer takes flashcash/certified credsticks in SR without sending a full holo of your ugly fraggin' mug down to KE, Lone Star, and every other cop shop operating in your district of the Sprawl, you got another think coming.
Those ARO tags are all talking to each other all the time. You can say you're shutting it down, and sure, you do - but there's a friggin' record, and that 'legal' gun sends one last 'hey, I'm getting shut down!!' yelp to Central. Turn it on again, and the thing will send right back to Central what it's done and where it's been. Why? Because that's what they do. Going into the black market is more than just buying the damn weapon or vehicle, it's making sure it isn't going to be blabbing an event report to its home databases every time it's turned off and on.
In addition - and maybe this is just me - but there are safety measures applied to certain things. You think you can hack with your legally-bought cyberdeck? Sure you can, and the beat cop from outside your doss is going to give you dump shock by unplugging you after every system you hit screams your location. Likewise, your legally-purchased car is going to be able to be turned off remotely, your fraggin' gun - if legally purchased - is going to have all the Peace Officer Overrides (POO!!) still active, which means Johnny Cycle Cop is going to hit an AR button and shut down your superfast motorcycle, then hit another and turn off your 'burned SIN' legal gun, because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them. (N.B. - They take care of those things before they sell them in part because they'd get their asses fried too.)
Just because you turned it 'off' doesn't mean you pulled the power pack and fried the circuitry.
Is any of this in the rules? No. Is it in the fluff? Technically, I don't believe so, no. Is it heavily implied?? Yes, yes, a thousand places yes. You want to purchase something legally, that's what you do with your High and Luxury Lifestyle. There's a reason that crap is rolled into 'lifestyle' and not covered - because if you're anything remotely resembling a competent shadowrunner, all the stuff you use and get 'with your lifestyle' - like the car you get as part of a Middle Lifestyle, or the limo and servants you'll have with that Luxury Lifestyle - you don't use when you're running. You purchase your 'runner' stuff seperately, buying things in back alleys, going through hoops to make sure stuff is wiped, making very, very good friends indeed with the people whose jobs it is to cater to the very rich and very private.
You want to go against RAW, fine - but doing so means you need to internalize the intent of the game, which you clearly aren't doing.
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Nice Wyrm... You wrote what I was thinking, but could not properly articulate (in writin).
Well done!
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Ad hominem...
Is what you're constantly resorting to rather than trying to have a civil discussion, yes.
Where?
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Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.
If you want something that isn't connected to your real identity or current fake, you need to go through the black market. Part of what you're paying for someone taking the time to alter all the security tags on something and transfering ownership to you. (p234 "Hardware toolkit and an Extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour) test."
I miss the old days when some gear was just listed as "always available" and everything else had a threshold and a time to determine how long it took to get instead of the current "it costs more so it takes more time". (Ares Predator 3/24 hours)
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Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.
While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.
Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard, or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.
Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate).
Availability: The higher the Availability of an item, the more difficult and costly it is to get it (see Buying Gear, p. 416). Gear without an Availability rating can be bought at an appropriate local store or ordered online without any trouble. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). Items without a letter in parentheses are considered legal—they aren’t necessarily easy to find, but you won’t ever get arrested for seeking them (see (Il)legality, p. 419.
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Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.
While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.
And that is the reason we have this discussion in the first place.
If it is a legal item, then you should be able to buy it legally (and leaving a data trail) even if it might take you a few hours or even days before you can find where you can buy it because it is not a common item. RAW tell us you have to resort to the black market (or house rule it).
If you have a permit (or a very solid fake one that will pass all the tests when you buy the item), then you should be able to buy a restricted item legally (and leaving a data trail). RAW tell us we have to resort to the black market (or house rule it).
Not a big deal really, but it still feel very strange that you by RAW must visit the black market if you wish to buy a freekin commlink ;)
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... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them.
Would you like to retract that?
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I think most people in this threat could stand to curb the hostility a bit. Or at least stop being hypocrites and pointing fingers and calling out the rudeness of others while continuing to spew venom.
Going to back to the oringal question, if it doesn't have an R or F attached to its rating, then you can walk into just about any major chain store on the planet and order or pick up the item, and the data trail that comes along with it.
While that may be a logical houserule, it isn't RAW.
Not a big deal really, but it still feel very strange that you by RAW must visit the black market if you wish to buy a freekin commlink ;)
On the other hand a Comlink would be one of the worst things to leave a datatrail with. All your contacts, where you went, ARO interaction profiling, financial records etc. etc. I agree that it's weird that you can't just buy one, but on the other hand if you did just buy one legally, it'd be a huge liability during runs.
Things you want to use privately, on the other hand, may not have to be bought using game mechanics after all. If a lifestyle can cover your car, trid-viewer and intelligent fridge, why shouldn't it cover a private comlink (one that you should probably leave at home when on runs or during legwork)?
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... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them.
Would you like to retract that?
You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.
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... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them.
Would you like to retract that?
You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.
And by short inference the player of said character (me).
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If the shoe fits...
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For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.
Huh. (thanks ZeConster) Doesn't this mean that, should someone decide to physically schlep to a store, the GM is within rights to reduce the Availability of items there to AV:--?
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For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.
Huh. (thanks ZeConster) Doesn't this mean that, should someone decide to physically schlep to a store, the GM is within rights to reduce the Availability of items there to AV:--?
Depends on how exclusive their clientele is: some of the fashion companies in SR4 Arsenal may refuse to service you, for example. But yes, if you're in the store (which will be somewhat more specialized than your typical Stuffer Shack or the like), and they have the item in store, and they're willing to sell for you, I don't really see why not. Finding the store that sells the item you want is the tricky part, after all.
And yes, GM discretion grants opportunities. If your character doesn't mind leaving a datatrail for a certain product category, I could see how a GM might make you do some sort of check to find the store, and then make you fill out some paperwork for them to put you on their mailing list (think of it like a Loyalty 1 contact). Then, if you need something, your GM could determine if they have it in stock (which basically reduces the Availability to -- for just that store) or if it takes time.
Actually, Michael houseruled contacts like that for our 4th-edition campaign: if it was within their area of expertise, he made a die roll that determined whether the contact happened to have some in stock at the moment.
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... because you (you dumb moron) didn't go through the sorts of channels that take care of those things before they sell them.
Would you like to retract that?
You've been jumping at people's throats this entire topic - why do you have a problem with someone calling your hypothetical character a moron? Because that's what this is - he's calling the shadowrunner that decides to buy a cyberdeck through official channels with a datatrail attached, a moron.
And by short inference the player of said character (me).
I rarely retract anything, and I'm certainly not retracting that. Online, you are what you show yourself to be. You're showing yourself to be a paranoid pedant. If you want to presume that I'm calling you a moron - which I wasn't, but hey - then by all means, presume away. I'm not going to apologize for or make a retraction in regards to your damn presumptions, though.
At this point, spuwdsda, you really should be apologizing for one or two dozen bits of offensive behavior yourself, and considering exactly what we're telling you, instead of focussing your attention on a piddly little three-word comment you feel applies to you.
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Come on now. He was perfectly fine until Micheal Chandra started copping attitude with him in refusing to answer a perfectly valid question simply because he "didn't feel like answering".
I didn't miss the question. I am, however, not interested in thinking up an answer.
This is completely uncalled for and not at all respectful. Any snark from the OP came after this comment.
You, Wyrm, were quite needlessly condescending, and yes you should apologize for your comment because you did in fact call him "moron" however indirectly.
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Michael's "attitude" was a response to his.
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Guns, are you sure we've been reading the same thread?
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Guns, are you sure we've been reading the same thread?
Quite. Until Micheal Chandra copped his attitude, the OP was quite civil. I've spoken with him via PM and again, quite civil.
Michael's "attitude" was a response to his.
Considering how closely tied the two of you are, you aren't exactly unbiased. You should recuse yourself in the matter.
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No, Guns, he was being combative, much as you are in many of your threads, and much as I sometimes have a tendency to do. If he didn't mean it as snark and belligerence, then he failed utterly in his intent, and we can maybe chalk this up as part of the issue with a text-based medium. But when multiple observers say you're being a dick about things, then maybe you should look and see if maybe you do, in fact, come off as a dick, instead of just assuming that they're obviously wrong, because you thought you were being civil.
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Considering how closely tied the two of you are, you aren't exactly unbiased. You should recuse yourself in the matter.
It's almost funny how you are telling me I'm biased about Michael and should recuse myself. Because considering how many fights with him you've gotten into, that goes double for you.
EDIT: And then there's also the absurdity of saying "I'm going to say bad things about your brother now, and because he's your brother, you're not allowed to publicly disagree".
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No, Guns, he was being combative, much as you are in many of your threads, and much as I sometimes have a tendency to do. If he didn't mean it as snark and belligerence, then he failed utterly in his intent, and we can maybe chalk this up as part of the issue with a text-based medium. But when multiple observers say you're being a dick about things, then maybe you should look and see if maybe you do, in fact, come off as a dick, instead of just assuming that they're obviously wrong, because you thought you were being civil.
Remember, Mirikon, I specifically said he was being civil before Micheal Chandra's attitude and condescension, and quite honestly, he was being civil--if a bit forceful--before that. Afterward, however, he returned attitude with attitude with both sides escalating up to Wyrm's insulting the man's intelligence.
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I didn't miss the question. I am, however, not interested in thinking up an answer.
This is completely uncalled for and not at all respectful. Any snark from the OP came after this comment.
Uh, no. Chandra gave several answers, all of them relatively benign and encouraging spuwdsda to use his own initiative, come up with his own reasons, and to be creative.
Black Market Goods are opposed by Standard Goods, which are "Standard items with no Availability rating". So you roll a test for any item that has a non-zero Availability Rating since they are only available if you go through tougher channels.
If you disagree with it, houserule it. It's dead simple, really.
I'm not so sure a Fairlight Caliban is freely accessable in stores. A cheapass commlink, sure, but a Caliban? Not really.
spuwdsda's reply?
Matter of opinion. I can walk into Harrods can walk out with any sort of ridiculously exclusive and expensive things. £30,000 iPods for instance. I doubt SR is any different.
However, you seem to have missed my key question.
What legal items (with an availability rating) would you have as only black market and which in stores?
spuwdsda gets snarky right here, saying that the perfectly reasonable answer (and reasonable doubt) that Chandra's given, after Chandra says 'if you don't like it, houserule it', is 'a matter of opinion'. Well, yeah - Chandra just said that. Not only that, though, spuwdsda continues to deliberately press for a detailed answer - being snarky and saying that Chandra 'seemed to have missed (his) key question'. Chandra's got better things than go through the list of stuff and say, 'oh, you could get this at Harrod's', and 'oh, you could get this at Harrod's too'.
Chandra says no, he didn't miss the question, he simply didn't have any desire to answer it. Because, y'know, he pretty much already did.
You, Wyrm, were quite needlessly condescending, and yes you should apologize for your comment because you did in fact call him "moron" however indirectly.
Apparently you think I called him a moron too, Guns - and here's the thing. I'd call anyone who would do this sort of thing a moron, whether it's him, Chandra, you, Bull, or Jason Hardy - because using a legally-bought gizmo that you haven't scrubbed clean in a shadowrun is a bloody stupid thing to do. I called the character who did this a moron. You think that's you, he thinks that's him, fine - that's your right. Don't pin your insecurity on me, because if you did it, then yeah, you are.
Condescending? Hell no. I gave the strait dope straight up. He stated this specifically:
My position is: There are no mechanics by RAW to buy items, with availability, retail. I would have appreciated some.
Guns, he seems to have missed the point. With this statement, he is declaring that he wants hard rules on how to purchase things legally. 'You just buy them.' The rules are there in order to get stuff you can use in pursuit of your illegal activities, not for stuff you use in your daily life. I described why you don't use legally-acquired items in shadowruns.
You seem to be the only two that have a problem with having things laid out specifically for him. If that's condescending, well ... okay. I've been called worse. And if that's insulting his intelligence, then yeah, sure, whatever - but I'm a hard, firm believer in you being what you show yourself to be. He didn't get it; I laid it out for him. If that offends him, fine. If that offends you as well, fine.
Really, at this point he (and you - why the hell are you getting into this, again??) are just picking a fight, trying to make it look like he's being piled on, and have gone way, way off-topic. So ... *shrugs* Sorry. Your constant pugnaciousness does mean that people stop taking you seriously.
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Chandra says no, he didn't miss the question, he simply didn't have any desire to answer it. Because, y'know, he pretty much already did.
Well that seems kind of snarky, but with so many things, it's important to keep in mind that it's almost never one guy who starts it. (Please don't break out any WW2 references now...) Communication is a complex thing, lots of things can go wrong, but it can't hurt to remember that a perceived slight, in the eyes of the perceiver, is real. No matter what any number of (more or less) impartial observers think about it. Cue heightened sensitivities, preemptive snark-attacks and general escalation.
I don't think anyone would lose face if you all just took a step back, stopped demanding apologies and retractions all around and got back on topic, no?
As I previously stated, I think it's easiest to roll stuff for personal use (where the datatrail helps you establish a possibly fake but superficially legal identity) into lifestyle. If you want to build a fake identity for use on a run, I don't see a problem with rolling availability (maybe with a situational bonus) to represent the extra care and time taken such a task requires. After all, very few real people buy everything they own on the same afternoon.
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I don't think anyone would lose face if you all just took a step back, stopped demanding apologies and retractions all around and got back on topic, no?
Voice of reason, there. Though I don't know what there is to talk about when it's been quoted and referenced that the GM may adjust availability and legality to suit location and situation. If this is all about providing a means to buy goods without resorting to black markets in the core book, that is as good as it gets.
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Chandra says no, he didn't miss the question, he simply didn't have any desire to answer it. Because, y'know, he pretty much already did.
Well that seems kind of snarky, but with so many things, it's important to keep in mind that it's almost never one guy who starts it.
No offense, but it's only snark if it's taken out of context, which it has been here. Chandra was asked to use his time to go through the list of items in Shadowrun and say what he'd think was available 'legally' - and presumably readily. Consider an effective reverse of the question - which items in today's open marketplace would you place a Restricted or Illegal marker on for Shadowrun? Go on, go through the ten billion products and give us a list of what you'd make illegal.
Don't have the desire to answer the question? I don't blame you, because it's a passive/aggressive question that denies personal creativity and responsibility for my own game in favor of trying to get someone else (you, Nico) to do the job for me. "I don't have any desire to answer that question" is remarkably polite; Robert A. Heinlein suggests high-velocity lead as an appropriate answer to a question like mine, and to be frank, I agree with him.
Yes, at this point I'm pissy, but it really twists my tail to watch new guys going after the old guys and making a stink about how the old guys are wrong for telling the new guys to think, get creative, make a house rule, and - when pressed to do the new guys' work for them - get people howling at them that they're not playing nice.
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this thread gone so far out of topic that i don't think it can be salvaged. i can't personally see anything good coming out beyond this point and the entire thread should probably be closed before it gets even worse...
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Chandra was asked to use his time to go through the list of items in Shadowrun and say what he'd think was available 'legally' - and presumably readily. Consider an effective reverse of the question - which items in today's open marketplace would you place a Restricted or Illegal marker on for Shadowrun? Go on, go through the ten billion products and give us a list of what you'd make illegal.
Michael wrote: "That rarer legal items still take time to find? Yes. However, I wouldn't necessarily wrap it all into the black market."
I asked:
"What legal items would you include in the black market and which would you exclude? One or two examples should do."
Michael refused to give one single example. One item of legal gear that, in his opinion, would be only available on the blackmarket rather than retail (on-the-shelf or not).
Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic
Michael eventually responded: "The fact that you now went to actually denying RAW rather than just debating RAI, shows this isn't a debate at all, it's a show."
Michael claims I am denying RAW, but refuses to offer any argument to this effect. Many others have posted various opinions, but they have addressed different issues. No one has yet offered any argument that undermines my claim. Until one is offered I will post no further on this thread.
I am sorry if my robust debating style and rhetorical flourishes have caused offence - that was not my intention.
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No offense
And none taken, LOL!but it's only snark if it's taken out of context, which it has been here. Chandra was asked to use his time to go through the list of items in Shadowrun and say what he'd think was available 'legally' - and presumably readily. Consider an effective reverse of the question - which items in today's open marketplace would you place a Restricted or Illegal marker on for Shadowrun? Go on, go through the ten billion products and give us a list of what you'd make illegal.
Don't have the desire to answer the question? I don't blame you, because it's a passive/aggressive question that denies personal creativity and responsibility for my own game in favor of trying to get someone else (you, Nico) to do the job for me.
And you rightfully shouldn't blame me, or anyone, or suggest (in so many words and referencing a classical writer) that spuwdsda should be shot. Not only is your "effective reversal" grossly disproportionate to the question you claim it reverses, but that question is also grossly disproportionate to the question originally posed by spuwdsda. One or two examples does not equal going over every item in the whole book. And even if it did, the number of items in the book has an equally ludicrous relationship to the number of commercially available items in the world today. Now just one or two examples for what you asked is perfectly reasonable and I'll happily provide them: Guns, cars, private property, credit cards, prescription medicine. All of these deserve at least an R, because, legally aquired, they are entered into some sort of registry that can be accessed by a government (in most sensible legislations, anyways).
Now I'll go ahead and claim that that wasn't so hard, and that I absolutely felt no need to shoot you, or in fact would have, had you asked the question in earnest rather than tried to use it to prove a point. Please try to understand that this is not an attack by "the new guys" trying to take "the old guy's" treehouse. Get off your barricades and stop fanning the fire, please. If you burn down the treehouse, no one can have fun.
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Michael claims I am denying RAW, but refuses to offer any argument to this effect. Many others have posted various opinions, but they have addressed different issues. No one has yet offered any argument that undermines my claim. Until one is offered I will post no further on this thread.
I am sorry if my robust debating style and rhetorical flourishes have caused offence - that was not my intention.
And that is precisely the problem here - your aggressive "debating style" turned a discussion into a heated argument.
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good thing he said he was sorry then. now kiss and make up. :)
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Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .
And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.
(the rest of this post is not specifically targeted at the quoted poster)
There also aren't any rules about going to the toilet or having sex, but characters are still able to do it. I once played a local pop celebrity who got blackmailed into doing some criminal stuff (she was a decent mage, and those are rare to come by) which is how she got involved in the entire mess. (Which culminated into an armed standoff between my character and another player's due to a clash of interests, it was glorious for all parties involved) If that character wanted to buy a new Commlink for use in her luxury home, surely there are official channels through which that can be done?
Thinking that all purchases made during a Shadowrun game are meant for criminal purposes is fallacious, and I don't see any reason to go black market for such items.
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(http://www.hochgepokert.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Drama-Bomb-Popcorn.jpg)
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Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .
And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.
Also already shown by ZeConster to be incorrect on p. 416. I will concede that there are not strong, developed rules for buying items legally. I guess if that is what is meant by no mechanics we are in agreement, but they are addressed. I guess it depends on what one wants out of the game book. Out of the Shadowrun core book, I want decent rules for Shadowrunning, I find these here. I do not find an economics simulator, or a good guide to designing networks, nor likelihood of a sucking chest wound, heart failure, or gastrointestinal seapage from a shot to the torso. I am okay with this. At some point abstraction is necessary, and sometimes things don't need to be explicitly added when there is already a page crunch. I find legal availability of things something
And another houserule way of looking at it
P. 387 Loyalty 1 "Just Biz. The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics. The people involved may not even like each other, and they won't offer any sort of preferential treatment." Sounds a lot like shopping at store. If another book covers group contacts again, it may be another way to handle it.
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Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .
And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.
Also already shown by ZeConster to be incorrect on p. 416.
P416
"Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local mar- ket fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate)."
My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.
Nothing on p416 contradicts this.
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Good for you, Spuw.
I believe what is being pointed out, is that you can take this;
with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate
Or nothing.
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That applies only to items with no availability.
QED.
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So that'll be nothing, then?
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No logical and evidential argument has been presented that falsifies my claim.
I mistakenly thought my claim would quickly achieve wide acceptance. From this established premise the conversation could then have moved on productively. However, this claim remains controversial. It continues to attract arguments against it - those I will answer.
I would be delighted to see a good argument falsifying my claim. I await it.
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There is an easily-filled gap in the rules that's been there since fourth edition (and which really is only a problem if you want it to be), and you've been turning this molehill into a mountain by treating a discussion as if it were a debate. If you want your "claim" to "achieve wide acceptance", perhaps you should stop saying things like "falsifying my claim" and talk like this is a normal conversation.
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(http://www.joke-of-the-day.com/files/images/snowmanholdup.jpg)
Oh its on now.
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Since 1st edition, Shadowrun has assumed that reasonable people will wave their hands in reasonable ways.
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Well, the biggest thing to remember is that the book is written from the "Shadowrunner" POV.... It assumes that you are a criminal, and that you are going to do everything it takes to keep yourself from drawing attention to yourself... which means dealing with the black market for most of your purchases to avoid the paper trail leading to you as much as you can.
And has been stated several times, even everyday items can be hard to find for even legit purchases. The top of the line commlink is a hefty purchase, both from the point of the consumer, and the store. They are not going to have "a couple dozen" sitting around. After all, when was the last time you walked into Wal-mart and could buy a $8000 cellphone? Heck I had to wait 3 months for my $3000 Sat/cell phone!!!! (and I got my Galaxy 4s phone in 10 minutes at a mall kiosk)
IF you absolutely want to make legit transactions, and don't care about the fallout, then house rule it.
but use some common sense.
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P416
"Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local mar- ket fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate)."
My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.
Nothing on p416 contradicts this.
Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard, or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.
ZeConster originally emphasized the part about what Availability means, but since spuwdsda desires a clear, concise quote-of-Rule-As-Written, I've changed the part to which you should place your attention.
No logical and evidential argument has been presented that falsifies my claim.
I mistakenly thought my claim would quickly achieve wide acceptance. From this established premise the conversation could then have moved on productively. However, this claim remains controversial. It continues to attract arguments against it - those I will answer.
I would be delighted to see a good argument falsifying my claim. I await it.
As you requested a 'good argument' - which you appear to define as a direct quote from the 5e rulebook in regards to your claim, that being the following:My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.
I hereby state that your claim is definitively false. The RAW is that the GM may change availability as he desires. If he desires, he may state that the book availability is, for a particular item and in a particular time and scenario, null and void. The RAW is that an item without an availability code can be bought without problems. A 10,000F main battle tank may be sitting, for sale, right in front of you - if you have the cash on hand, and since this is a battle zone, legality is to laugh at, all you need is 100% cash up front.
In essence, the RAW is that the GM can apply handwavium at any time, for any availability, on any item, according to his desire. If you can convince your GM that Sharper Image or some other retailer that caters to the $250,000+/year crowd is going to have that super-pricey gizmo, vehicle, or other item you want, and that you should be able to walk in and purchase it using your top-shelf false ID, according to RAW the GM is supposed to house rule it.
Now. What were you wanting to talk about?
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Wyrm, you missed the bit where I brought that up, and he rejected it as part of the "standard items with no availability" section. It's gone beyond finding the right sentence for a GM pass at this point; I think the current line is something like, "So you have this passage that doesn't directly refer to what you want, because what you want isn't in the scope of the core book, but you can use it out of context ... that's not good enough for you?"
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Meh. If that's true, then he's ignoring RAW and being argumentative, and we can all turn on the 'ignore this user' button.
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In essence, the RAW is that the GM can apply handwavium at any time, for any availability, on any item, according to his desire.
Well done. This is a good effort.
However, is advice that the GM should feel free to change such details to suit his campaign a mechanic? I wouldn't describe it as a mechanic, but ymmv.
However, let's assume it qualifies. If the GM has changed an item to '-' availability, then there is still no mechanic for purchasing items with an availability rating retail. The item being purchased has no availability rating in this situation.
Therefore your argument fails.
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Not to mention if "house rule it for your table" works for this, then the same is true for the Mystic Adept in SR5 because if the Mystic Adept as printed is a problem for a given table for whatever reason, the GM of that table can "house rule it for his table".
In my opinion, saying that this is a "house rule" situation while saying that the Mystic Adept "requires errata" is sheer hypocrisy. (Note- This is not an attack on anyone, merely an observation base on how things are appearing to me.)
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well, there are these wonderful little quotes from the book:
SR 5, page 333:
Next, table rules should be established, if the group
doesn’t have them already....
SR5, page 334
The group should then discuss if there are any house
rules they would like to implement. These are specific instances
where the group decides to play the game differently
than how it is written.....
SR5, page 334
When everyone comes to the table, they should
come with the attitude of dedicating themselves to the
game, committed to making it work. All of the discussions
described above are designed to help the gamemasters
and players understand group goals and expectations
and (ideally) find acceptable compromises.
SR5 page 416
Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard,
or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired
piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation
of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues,
supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an
item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the
item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the
gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability
Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality
code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner
is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.
so here we have MULTIPLE references from the book that ALLOWS you to change things. and you can do so as RAW (because it is written in the book.)
it even goes on to tell you why some items have an availability!!! (can you find the quote that tells you why?) Sure that item is sitting on a shelf somewhere in some store, in some city, in some country. But it just might not be YOUR city, or your Country. Not to worry! They deliver!!! (see the delivery rules) And for a few (hundred? thousand?) extra bucks, you might be able to cut that time down do mere minutes! (which I guess would mean it was in the very first shop you walked into!)
Now lets ACTUALLY look at all the items listed in the book.... starting with the items with NO listing for availability (a dash):
Knife, Survival knife, Club,Defiance EX Shocker, Yamaha Pulsar, Clothing, (Synth)Leather, Helmet(s), AR Gloves, Electronic paper, printer, trodes, trid projector, datachips, standard RFID tags, Cyberprogram, common use, standard and silver credsticks, tool kits, Binos (all types), cameras, glasses, googles, image link, ear buds, head phones, Omni microphones, heck, you can even get metal handcuffs!!! (sex shops. they ARE good for something!) the list goes on and on but you get the point.
Everything on the list is pretty much your everyday affair item that you can find at any low budget Wal-Mart type of store. All of them are typically non violent (Tasers are seen self-defence items), or have other, more mundane uses (baseball bat for a club... a steak knife... for a knife). Heck many of these items you can get at a dollar store NOW. Most of these items are your run of the mill "trash" items that many characters never actually buy (I can't think of a single time I had a player write "paper for printer" on his character sheet...)
Now lets look at the items WITH an availability cost to the item, but no legal code:
Combat knife, Extendable baton, Sap, various staves, various firearm accessories (but not a single firearm...), taser darts (they are harder to find then the taser! Go figure), flash pack (WTF?), feedback clothing (is this so you can wear them, and THEY can tell you that you look like an idiot, before you leave the house? probably not....), various armor protection mods, various armors, every single commlink,, software of various types, good credsticks. the list continues, but you get the idea.
these are all the items that are perfectly legal to own and buy.... but you just can't walk into any low rent department store and expect to find them... you might have to put a little leg work into the actual search.....you know, buy it from Zoe's fine wear, instead of K-mart...... IF you have a Zoe's fine wear shop in your town.
now lets look at 2 items from the same category: commlinks for this example, we will use a low mid range and a high end item:
Sony Emperor (availability 4, $700 cost) this is about equal to your smart phone most of you have in terms of price point. (iPhone 5, galaxy S4, etc)
Fairlight Caliban (availability 14, $8000 cost) this well more then my sat/cell Ericson smart phone (it better be water proof like mine is!!)
First lets review the how and what the test is:
SR 5 page 418
When you get to the good stuff, the higher the Availability
Rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item. To purchase
an item off the books, make an Availability Test.
This is an Opposed Test of your Negotiation + Charisma
[Social] versus the item’s Availability Rating. If you win
the Opposed Test, you find the gear at the listed price,
and it is delivered in the amount of time given on the
Delivery Times table divided by your net hits. If you tie
in the test, you find the gear, but the delivery time is
twice that listed on the table.....
lets assume you didn't totally cripple yourself, and say you have a Charisma 3 and Negotiation 3 (plain old average).
For the Emperor, you are rolling 6 dice VS the device's 4.... chances are you will win by at least 1 success... maybe 2 (or maybe 6!!): now we look at the table for delivery times:
1 success: 1 day. so you spent a day wandering the city and found one! congrats! or you ordered it online with same day delivery.
2 Successes: 12 hours, so you spent half a day looking, and found one. good job!
6 successes: 4 hours.. so you hopped on a bus, went downtown and found one. Next? LUNCH!
on the opposite side of the spectrum, you go for a Caliban! same average Joe as before:
Now you are rolling 6 dice VS 14.... and chances are GREAT that you are not going to find one. Maybe they are sold out. Maybe there was a problem at the factory (damn shadowrunners! They are ruining your consumerism!) well, at least you are not finding one at list (MSRP) price, but if you go to one of those ultra posh Uber elite stores, they MIGHT have one if you throw down a big fat credstick... (see buying more dice) For $32,000, you can get yourself 12 bonus dice... so now it's 18 VS 14.... and chances are you will come out with 1 success...maybe 2 (heck, maybe even 7! or 18!!!)
now we look at the delivery times: (factoring in your $32,000 purchase)
1 success: a week... sorry but the item in store is just a demo model, and you have to wait for shipping (and customs and all that crap).
2 successes: 3.5 days hey, not bad! they offer 3 day shipping on top of the half a day you spent wandering around town looking for the item.. or online
7 successes: 1 day!!! holy crap!!! next day shipping! That store ROCKS!!!
18 Successes: 9 hours!! You smooth talker you! you convinced the sales staff to sell you Richard Villiers back ordered unit! And all it took was a smile, and song and a dance (not to mention travel time, talking time, etc)
this is an interesting quote for you... a little more food for you thought processes.....
SR 5 page 416
Of course, standard goods can also be purchased on
the black market to avoid traceability, but the gamemaster
may decide that the latest copy of Miracle Shooter is
more expensive with the digital serial numbers filed off
and apply a surcharge for your paranoia.
Or, you COULD just look at the bold face int he second to last quote... and use some common sense. (which seems to have disappeared from many people in the 21st century.... I blame the internetz!!)
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According to Bull, delivery times equal the time actually spent looking for it. I'm not really sure if that's intended but it's the ruling for Missions, though not perse for normal. Only contacts can just call about and arrange things.
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According to Bull, delivery times equal the time actually spent looking for it. I'm not really sure if that's intended but it's the ruling for Missions, though not perse for normal. Only contacts can just call about and arrange things.
that could be, and hopefully it will be in the errata... I take the "delivery" time thing to mean just that... Delivery time. With the amount of online shopping people do today, it's not that big a stretch to think that it would be MORE prevailant in the future... So I imagine a lot of purchases are done from the comfort of your own home via the matrix... and now it just the waiting game for the delivery person.
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Yeah, same here. Bull's an oldtimer though. ;)
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Yeah, same here. Bull's an oldtimer though. ;)
Those Orks... they age fast :P
Wait a minute!!!! Bull is like 10 years younger then ME!!!! if he's old... what that make me???
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To Reaver:
To summarise your position as I understand it: The RAW gives licence to make houserules. Therefore there is a RAW mechanic to buy items with an availability rating retail - houserule it.
My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
Your argument rests on whether the general licence to make houserules, itself constitutes a RAW mechanic.
It the context of my claim, I used the word mechanic to mean a specific procedure - like those defined in RAW for buying items with no availability rating and buying items on the black market.
A houserule is often a specific procedure, but a licence to make a houserule is a step removed from a specific procedure. The licence can initiate the development of a specific procedure wrt buying items with an availability rating retail, but is not itself a specific procedure to buy items with availability retail.
However, thank you for identifying this semantic unclarity in my claim. Therefore I shall restate:
My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
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My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.
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My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.
I think this nicely ties up the thread.
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My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.
I believe so. Yet challengers continue to step into the ring.
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In the end, what makes a "Stop Having Fun" Guy isn't the rule-setting, it's the attitude. While regular competitive/tournament players simply like playing to win, the "Stop Having Fun" Guy believes that this is the only right way to play the game.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys)
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<a post that probably bordered on Bannable has been redacted by me.>
<ignore function used>
you can lead a horse to water......
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Your argument rests on whether the general licence to make houserules, itself constitutes a RAW mechanic.
It the context of my claim, I used the word mechanic to mean a specific procedure - like those defined in RAW for buying items with no availability rating and buying items on the black market.
My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.
... uh ... okay, wow. Geez, you completely missed the specific procedure, by RAW, to buy items with an availability rating retail. Unfortunately, I allowed myself to be suckered into your incomplete comprehension. Let us review.
Certain things (those items with no availability rating) are as common as spit. You can buy them, as it were, at the corner store with the bread and milk. At the gas station when you get your cigarettes. At the 'video' store where you get your sim-chips. They are so ubiquitous (interesting to think of knives and a stun gun as ubiquitous) that you can get them pretty much anywhere.
Other things take some time to get - actually going to the store, or going online and ordering it and (gasp!) waiting for it to be delivered to you because hey, Kong-Walmart doesn't stock top-end cyberdecks at their local stores, they have to ship it from their distribution center, whether that's in Downtown Seattle or in Denver. Maybe they have to order it from the manufacturer.
'Availability' wraps together a lot of stuff up into one 'specific procedure' - including how hard it is to find it in stock at a retail outlet.Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on.
Now, here's where your understanding fell down, got up, fell down, got up, fell down every flight of stairs from the top of the ACHE to the bottom, got up, and fragging fell down again.
In no way or place does the RAW state that items with Availability must be purchased on the black market. 'Standard goods with no availability' (hereafter SGNA) are different from 'standard goods' (hereafter SG) only in the fact that SGNA can be gotten bloody anywhere, and SG you have to look for, e.g. make one or several availability test(s) until you hit the target and have tracked down your gizmo, or it's been shipped from the warehouse. Standard Goods are purchased retail - it's a question of how much time you have to take to find the place that has it in stock right now. You use the same mechanic; there is no alteration. The only functional difference between 'Standard Goods' and 'Black Market Goods', thematically, is that you can increase the amount you're willing to pay in order to get a hold of the thing faster, or even at all. (You typically can't pay up to 400% of a weapon's price to a Kong-WalMart employee in order to get something more quickly, but your GM might let you. Ooops, house rule.)
Unfortunately for you, as well as for all the rest of us who assumed that you knew what the hell your problem was, that mechanic was not specifically explained inside the 'Standard Goods' section of the rulebook. Instead of wasting another column saying what they're going to say in regards to Black Market Goods, they counted on the player and GM using common sense to recognize the fact that 'hey, Black Market Goods use availability and have a mechanic by which to acquire them; Standard Goods can have an availability too, so maybe we should use the same mechanic in order to acquire them.'
God, I can't believe I took you at your word that there wasn't something right fraggin' there that wasn't already staring you in the face. The warnings were all there, pages worth of people telling you that the sun was bright, the sky was blue, and it rains in Seattle, but nooooo, I had to be a trusting dumbshit ...
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(http://www.datgif.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/nerd-rage-slap.gif)
I love this thread. This Spudwacker guy is a expert troll.
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Iirc no edition of Shadowrun has ever had specific rules for retail shopping. It's always been handwavium or treated the same as black market. Hope I'm wrong.
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Hehe. Trollbait countering a troll's arguments.
Ok, I'm done giggling. <very serious face> ... Yeah, not so much.
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Firstly, thanks for an honest engagement.
In no way or place does the RAW state that items with Availability must be purchased on the black market.
P419
"BLACK MARKET GOODS
When you get to the good stuff, the higher the Availability Rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item. To purchase an item off the books, make an Availability Test."
The section going on to detail the mechanics of making these purchases.
The use of the term "off the books" means the black market. The title of the section is 'Black Market Goods'. Applying these rules to retail purchases would be a (perfectly reasonable) houserule, but a houserule nevertheless.
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Iirc no edition of Shadowrun has ever had specific rules for retail shopping. It's always been handwavium or treated the same as black market. Hope I'm wrong.
See p416
"STANDARD GOODS
Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate)."
Here you go. Specific rules for retail purchasing.
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I should have specified items with an availability rating. My bad.
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And this thread has been locked and actions taken against all those involved.