[Mirikon]

The problem, Jack, is that the characters you're listing AREN'T one-dimensional, unless you take only the most superficial looks at them.

Red Skull is an evil genius and a master strategist, capable of creating intricate, long-running plots and influencing and subverting those around him to serve his own ends. None of that except 'evil' could be used to describe Clockwork. Further more, the Red Skull has, throughout his run, been the puppetmaster and man behind the curtain, often manipulating heroes to fight their friends and using a wide array of poisons, drugs, and devices.

The only one of those villains you mentioned that comes close to being one-dimensional is the Joker, and that is because the Joker is, in a word, insane. He is a force of chaos that you never know what he'll be up to next, always coming up with some new joke to play as he obsesses over Batman. And the most powerful Joker story ever? The Killing Joke, where they go into depth with Joker and his backstory, fleshing him out and making him less one-dimensional.

[Jack in the Box]

"Red Skull is an evil genius and a master strategist, capable of creating intricate, long-running plots and influencing and subverting those around him to serve his own ends."

And Clockwork is an elite shadowrunner and hacker.  If he weren't, he wouldn't be on Jackpoint.  He is able to and wants to stay on that forum despite the fact that everybody, including the admins, would love an opportunity to put a bullet in him.

But on a larger point, I completely disagree with your definition of "one-dimensional."  It has nothing to do with skill sets.  The fact that Red Skull has these skills doesn't mean he isn't one-dimensional.  One-dimensional has to do with motivations.  Joker is the least one-dimensional of the characters I listed because, though he just wants to see the world burn, in his own twisted way, he cares for Harlequin and, especially, Batman.  You get none of that complexity with the Red Skull or Clockwork.

[Mirikon]

Uh, no. Joker does not care about Harley Quinn. She is a tool and a toy to him, nothing more. In fact, they say this many times throughout the comics and shows. If you only watched Suicide Squad, then you could be forgiven for thinking that, but otherwise, no. Joker and Batman is more complex, but not by much. Joker's obsession with Batman is like the dog chasing a car. They do it because it is there. What would they do if they caught it? They don't know.

Red Skull's motivation is world domination. He seeks to recreate the world in his image, making it better, by his view. And unlike Clockwork, he's had some interesting interactions with Captain America and others that didn't involve (immediate) betrayal and violence over the years, and he even changed parts of his core MO over time to reflect the changing times, reinventing himself to get rid of the Nazi mystique at one point.

[Jack in the Box]

" Joker does not care about Harley Quinn"

Oh, I _totally_ disagree with you.  His love for her is twisted and sick and dysfunctional and not at all as it was portrayed in that movie, it is still, nevertheless, the kind of love people write songs about.

Of course, those songs are songs like
Tainted Love
He Had It Coming
I Miss the Misery
Never Again
Fistful of Love
etc.

It's the kind of love that promises never to hurt you again and then hits you over the head with a baseball bat.  It's the kind of love that will punch you in the face, but will also protect you from anyone else who may try to hurt you (though probably after punching you in the face for making them get up out of their chair to protect you).  It is toxic love.  It isn't Hallmark love.  But, it is still love.

"Red Skull's motivation is world domination. He seeks to recreate the world in his image, making it better, by his view. And unlike Clockwork, he's had some interesting interactions with Captain America and others that didn't involve (immediate) betrayal and violence over the years, and he even changed parts of his core MO over time to reflect the changing times, reinventing himself to get rid of the Nazi mystique at one point"

And he's one-dimensional.

[Michael Chandra]

That is not love. It is considering someone your property. It is not love, not even toxic love, and should not be treated as such in any way because it does harm to people in abusive relationships. That kind of attitude is why there's people saying there was no abusive behaviour from him in Suicide Squad, and even frying her brain was an act of love that she requested according to them. And don't tell me I'm exaggerating, I have literally had people say that stuff to me. Do not tell me that the Joker loves her. He loves owning her. That's all.

[Jack in the Box]

"because it does harm to people in abusive relationships"

failing to see it as love is doing harm to people in abusive relationships.  It helps them think that they are exceptions, that they aren't really in a toxic relationship, because their relationship has love.

" That kind of attitude is why there's people saying there was no abusive behaviour from him in Suicide Squad"

I never said that the relationship in SS wasn't abusive.  Of course it was abusive!  People who say otherwise are idiots.

[Michael Chandra]

Comments like yours are what helps supports those idiots. I've had about enough of a Joker-glorifier.

[Jack in the Box]

I said, "His love for her is twisted and sick and dysfunctional"

I said, "It's the kind of love that promises never to hurt you again and then hits you over the head with a baseball bat.  It's the kind of love that will punch you in the face, but will also protect you from anyone else who may try to hurt you (though probably after punching you in the face for making them get up out of their chair to protect you).  It is toxic love."

I said, "Of course it was abusive!  People who say otherwise are idiots."

You have a strange notion of what constitutes being a "Joker-glorifier."
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are operating under the mistaken assumption that love is all puppies and rainbows.  But, love can be destructive.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That still doesn't make it love FOR her, is the point.  It makes it delight in doing nasty things.

[Jack in the Box]

"It makes it delight in doing nasty things"

One place where you can see his love for her is in his jealousy.  She's _his_ little punching bag.  He doesn't care if Catwoman or Poison Ivy gets hurt, but if you hurt Harley, then you should probably just kill yourself before he catches you.

And, of course, there's this
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/313211349063380576/

Also NONE of his other cronies would ever get away with slapping him around as Harley has done.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mmmm, let's end this before the moderators do.

[Marcus]

Well that went side ways with very odd vector.

Look Folks, we aren't English Majors. This isn't a writers workshop on multi-dimensional antagonists. We aren't trying to write multi-season anime plot lines here.

It's RPG forum, odds are the most your players are gonna remember about any specific opposition is some weird theme you put on them, or the lewt the received from beating it down. That is work as intended every time. Sure we would all love for a our cool villains to be memorable, but don't over think it. Keep it simple.

Modern RPG have taught us over and over again, the best thing a villain can be is durable. They can do all sorts of evil things for the players to find, but when actually fighting player being able to take a good pile of hits is best.

[Jack in the Box]

" odds are the most your players are gonna remember about any specific opposition is some weird theme you put on them, or the lewt the received from beating it down."

I don't agree with that, BUT I do agree that the Shadowrun forum isn't the place to get into the intricacies of the Joker's character and the psychology of toxic love.  So, for my part, I'm dropping it.  I'm blaming it on my head being in the "ramping up for NaNoWriMo" mode of late.

[Reaver]

<.<

>.>


<puts away popcorn>.

 

[Marcus]

<.<

>.>


<puts away popcorn>.

 

Somebody had to do it Reaver. No body wants a multi-page argument about the D@mn "killing joke", and a tragic, masochistic character invented in a 90's cartoon that gone on to some how inspire a whole generation of poor lost souls.

Now back on topic: Which of the new Streams will spawn the top new generation of Super power Technos? And where do you think PAX will go with it?