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[SR5] Raising attributes with Karma at character creation

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Leevizer

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« on: <02-27-14/1308:09> »
So, the question itself is simple.

If I raise my attributes with Karma at character creation, will it increase the amount of knowledge skills I have or the amount of contacts I get for free?

I think I don't get them, since it's essentially "after" character creation, but I don't seem to find it in the rulebook.

JackVII

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« Reply #1 on: <02-27-14/1314:33> »
Hmm... I'm not sure. The only reference I could find was attributes boosted by cyber/bio do not benefit from the boost when calculating knowledge points/contacts.
Quote from: p.95, BBB
Attributes boosted by cyberware or bioware do not affect the calculation for things such as points for Knowledge skills or Contacts.

Seems like chargen karma boosts improve those qualities (I may need to rebuild a few characters now).

The only counterargument I can think of is that the Karma spending part comes after the Knowledge Skills part (Step Five) and at the same time as the Contacts part (Step 7). Since we know some stuff can apparently be taken out of order, I guess it is a GM call. I would allow it in my game.
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1318:01> by JackVII »
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Charasanya

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« Reply #2 on: <02-27-14/1424:04> »
I would say no, for knowledge skills and yes for contacts, simply because the character creation process is broken down into steps.

Buying skills (also knowledge skills) is on step 4 (at least in my German edition), while grabbing connections and raising attributes with karma is both on step seven.

Within the steps, I would say you are free to do things as you please (raise attributes, then buy connections), but you can't go back to step four and spend your newly raised points to buy knowledge skills. Your GM may deem otherwise, but this is how we handled it so far.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <02-27-14/1429:47> »
Not entirely correct, Charasanya. There are already multiple actions that let you then do something in earlier steps. For example, Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude.
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1433:59> by Michael Chandra »
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JackVII

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« Reply #4 on: <02-27-14/1433:17> »
I would say no, for knowledge skills and yes for contacts, simply because the character creation process is broken down into steps.

Buying skills (also knowledge skills) is on step 4 (at least in my German edition), while grabbing connections and raising attributes with karma is both on step seven.

Within the steps, I would say you are free to do things as you please (raise attributes, then buy connections), but you can't go back to step four and spend your newly raised points to buy knowledge skills. Your GM may deem otherwise, but this is how we handled it so far.
The problem with this is the book directly contradicts the step-order process by allowing one of the example players to take the Exceptional Attribute quality (Step Four) before assigning Attribute points (Step Two). It isn't exactly clear what can be done out of order as some things being taken out of order is probably not intended.
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jim1701

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« Reply #5 on: <02-27-14/1444:49> »
I don't think it SHOULD be allowed to but given the mixed up nature of the creation process there doesn't seem to be any rule forbidding it.  It does seem like a hack or a cheat to me though.  Spending 10 karma on raising your CHA from 1 to 2 basically gives you a rebate of 3 karma for your contacts.  Doing the same for LOG or INT gives you a rebate of 2 knowledge skill points whose karma value can vary from 2 karma to 14 karma.  That doesn't seem like RAI to me. 

JackVII

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« Reply #6 on: <02-27-14/1500:49> »
Spending 10 karma on raising your CHA from 1 to 2 basically gives you a rebate of 3 karma for your contacts.
I don't follow this... You can use chargen karma to buy contact points at a 1 : 1 ratio. If your only interest is acquiring more Contact points, it is much cheaper to buy them with karma than it is to raise your Charisma. For instance, you could raise CHA from 1 to 3 by spending 25 karma points, which would net you an additional 6 contact points (3 to 9). Or, you could spend those 25 points on contact points and have an additional 25 contact points (3 to 28). There are obviously other benefits to raising Charisma beyond just the contact points, but it is largely dependent on your build.

Obviously, I don't really have a problem with it; it's certainly not a cheap endeavor in any event.

ETA: I guess you're saying that they get 13 points worth of benefit out of a 10 point expenditure. I don't think that's a massive problem personally.
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jim1701

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« Reply #7 on: <02-27-14/1513:08> »
Spending 10 karma on raising your CHA from 1 to 2 basically gives you a rebate of 3 karma for your contacts.
ETA: I guess you're saying that they get 13 points worth of benefit out of a 10 point expenditure. I don't think that's a massive problem personally.

This.  And I never said it was a massive problem.  OTOH why bother with character building systems at all?  Just write down whatever you feel like and call it good.   ::)

JackVII

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« Reply #8 on: <02-27-14/1517:01> »
And I never said it was a massive problem.
Your use of CAPS LOCK must have confused me.
OTOH why bother with character building systems at all?  Just write down whatever you feel like and call it good.   ::)
No reason to get hyperbolic about it, no one is suggesting such an idea.
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jim1701

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« Reply #9 on: <02-27-14/1534:52> »
And I never said it was a massive problem.
Your use of CAPS LOCK must have confused me.


I have been playing RPGs for over 30 years and this is the very first time anyone has misconstrued the meaning of using all caps when writing the abbreviated form of an attribute.  First time for everything I guess.  Just for future reference I generally always capitalize abbreviated attributes: STR, BOD, AGI, ETC. 

OTOH why bother with character building systems at all?  Just write down whatever you feel like and call it good.   ::)
No reason to get hyperbolic about it, no one is suggesting such an idea.

Didn't say you did.  In fact the wording strongly implies me suggesting the idea rather than anyone else.  To be clear it was strictly as a devil's advocate suggestion rather than anything I would advocate myself.  I believe that if an attribute should cost 10 points then it should cost 10 points without giving a rebate. 

But again in case you missed it the first time I never said it violates the RAW.   At best the rules are unclear on the subject since it is nearly impossible to follow the creation process step by step in the order given. 

JackVII

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« Reply #10 on: <02-27-14/1539:10> »
I have been playing RPGs for over 30 years and this is the very first time anyone has misconstrued the meaning of using all caps when writing the abbreviated form of an attribute.  First time for everything I guess.  Just for future reference I generally always capitalize abbreviated attributes: STR, BOD, AGI, ETC.
I was talking about SHOULD, but it's not really important.

I also fully understand your position, it isn't difficult to understand.

Although:
Quote
I believe that if an attribute should cost 10 points then it should cost 10 points without giving a rebate.
Do you houserule the cost of PQs at chargen? They cost half as much as they do during gameplay.
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1545:41> by JackVII »
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jim1701

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« Reply #11 on: <02-27-14/1545:29> »
I have been playing RPGs for over 30 years and this is the very first time anyone has misconstrued the meaning of using all caps when writing the abbreviated form of an attribute.  First time for everything I guess.  Just for future reference I generally always capitalize abbreviated attributes: STR, BOD, AGI, ETC.
I was talking about SHOULD, but it's not really important.

My mistake but that isn't the part you quoted so you can understand my confusion.  The SHOULD in question related solely to my how I felt it should work.  You certainly like to read a lot into a post that isn't there.

JackVII

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« Reply #12 on: <02-27-14/1546:42> »
My mistake but that isn't the part you quoted so you can understand my confusion.
I guess? I didn't quote anything that had CAPS LOCK. I guess I shouldn't assume fairly simple deduction.

LOL
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« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1555:02> by JackVII »
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Charasanya

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« Reply #13 on: <02-28-14/0256:55> »
Not entirely correct, Charasanya. There are already multiple actions that let you then do something in earlier steps. For example, Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude.
Quite true, I honestly haven't thought of that. Thanks for reminding me! :)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: <02-28-14/0636:49> »
Off-topic and mostly unrelated to this subject, Special Attribute Points are explicitly kept until after chargen. This is why if the GM houserules Initiation at chargen, you can have someone at 9 Magic straight out of chargen. The Devs didn't see the problem with houseruling it, but that's likely because they missed this trick. So GMs, if you houserule initiation/submersion at chargen, also houserule that you can't use your SAPs on the raised maximum.
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