Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: DarkLloyd on <09-25-10/1147:44>
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So I came upon a quandry while I was at work. Are the Totems or "Mentor" spirits (God I hate that in SR4) really the Passions from Earthdawn? Maybe in an Early lesspowerful form?
I never really played ED, i just have 2 or 3 books from it, so I really don't know much about the Passions but from what I've seen on the boards and from talking to people, it kinda makes sinse. Unless I'm just missing some important piece of info.
So. Toughts?
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As a rule, no they probably aren't. To an individual spellcaster that might (somehow) know enough about the ED Passions and -- this is the important part -- believe hard enough that it's how s/he focuses their power and views the world? Sure, I guess maybe they could be.
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What are the differences? Gimme some more info plz.
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A Passion is the embodiment of an idea or an ideal. Those who worship it or follow its path (whether they worship or not) often gain its favor. Its favor grants a small number of magical abilities tied to the theme of the Passion. For example:
Lochost is the Passion of Change, Freedom, and Rebellion. Revolutionaries, freedom fighters, slaves seeking to escape bondage, and progressive philosophers all follow this Passion's tenets. The freedom doesn't have to be physical, it might just be seeking freedom of thought to escape from a stagnant societies mindset.
Thystonius is the Passion of Physical Conflict and Valor. Note that "physical conflict" doesn't necessarily mean war. Just the act of physically challenging someone else. Thystonius would love the Olympic games, for example, because everyone there challenges themselves and each other to be the best. Valor, in this case, is of the physical variety. Saving someone from a raging fire could get his attention just as standing one's ground in battle against overwhelming odds.
Totems are similar, in that the magical follower of the totem tends to take on their attributes, but it stops there. Non-awakened characters have absolutely no chance of gaining a totem (rules wise, anyway), although many totem followers say that their totem chose them. The totems also grant a few dice bonuses or penalties here and there, but do not grant brandy-new powers. Totems are also a lot more generic than the Passions are. They might have characteristics common to several Passions (love, valor, etc.) but are not as focused as the Passions.
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Totems are similar, in that the magical follower of the totem tends to take on their attributes, but it stops there. Non-awakened characters have absolutely no chance of gaining a totem (rules wise, anyway), although many totem followers say that their totem chose them. The totems also grant a few dice bonuses or penalties here and there, but do not grant brandy-new powers. Totems are also a lot more generic than the Passions are. They might have characteristics common to several Passions (love, valor, etc.) but are not as focused as the Passions.
Not Yet.
Which is my resaon for posting this. Maybe they can't influence us on that level because our magic is too low. We know the Really big Horrors can't come thru yet, they are too magic dependant to survive.
that's all i was trying to get across. Thank you for the extra info tho.
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Plus, on a more pragmatic level, the simple fact is that Earthdawn and Shadowrun are owned by different companies, now. I wouldn't expect the next sourcebook to come out to have Mentor Spirit rules for Thystonius (my personal favorite), or something.
If, in your individual game, the ED/SR crossovers are more tightly bound together, or a character has a good reason to know enough about it -- Passions have been hinted at, particularly in SR1 stuff -- then I don't see any OOC reason for any given Shaman to, if it fits his character's knowledge and the spirit of your game, not call his Dragonslayer mentor spirit "Thystonius," if he really, really, wants to.
Doing so might be dangerous, mind you (as, again, has been hinted at in prior sourcebooks)...but if it's what'll fit the flavor of your game, go for it.
I'd want to be a little more versed in ED lore, myself, before encouraging a player in Shadowrun to go that far, but that's just me. ;)
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Earthdawn and Shadowrun are still owned by the same people that have always owned it. It is licensed to two different companies, though.
Also, Passions follow their ideals to the exteme and exclusion of everything else. For example, there is a legend in Earthdawn that the 12 other Passions imprisoned Death in Death's Sea (modern day Black Sea) to lessen Death's sting amongst mortals. Lochost, however, was so against any entity being imprisoned that he forced the others to give Death a chance to escape: When enough blood was spilled on the soil of Barsaive (the primary setting in Earthdawn, corresponding to the Ukraine area) that Death would be free to roam the land once again.
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Actually, FASA, as a holding company is the IP owner of Earthdawn, Topps, via the Wizkids buyout, owns all the SR IPs. SO again, the companies are in seperate hands, which reduces the chance of any further crossover.
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There was a hint about passions in one of the sourcebooks if I remember correctly. Something about an immortal elf following a strange form of totem, more a passion. But I don't remember where that shadowtalk was in...
Anyway there was said that its not a totem.
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The few Passion mentions I'm aware of -
Teachdaire the elf assassin from Prime Runners is said to occasionally mention something about "mad passions".
Someone brings up Passions in the Tir Tairngire SB, and Harlequin mentions about sending flowers to his funeral - implying that the Tir Princes brutally suppress any mention of them, as they would anything from the Fourth World.
Another reference is in the opening fiction to Harlequin's Back, where one of the Passions converses directly with Harlequin.
Lastly, I believe that there are references to them in Black Madonna but I'll need to return to that novel to check it.
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The few Passion mentions I'm aware of -
Teachdaire the elf assassin from Prime Runners is said to occasionally mention something about "mad passions".
Someone brings up Passions in the Tir Tairngire SB, and Harlequin mentions about sending flowers to his funeral - implying that the Tir Princes brutally suppress any mention of them, as they would anything from the Fourth World.
Another reference is in the opening fiction to Harlequin's Back, where one of the Passions converses directly with Harlequin.
Lastly, I believe that there are references to them in Black Madonna but I'll need to return to that novel to check it.
That's about all of 'em, yeah.
Black Madonna has a reference to Questors, in particular.
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Thank all of you very much.
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Actually, FASA, as a holding company is the IP owner of Earthdawn, Topps, via the Wizkids buyout, owns all the SR IPs. SO again, the companies are in seperate hands, which reduces the chance of any further crossover.
Um, you know the guys who made WizKids are the old FASA people. I believe they still own the holding company, if I'm not mistaken.
So...still one place.
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You are miustaken. Jordan Wiseman sold his IPs for Shadowrun and Battletech to Wizkids and left the company. He formed Smith and Tinker, and is currently licensing his old IPs from MS for video games. MS owns the properties of Crimson Skies wholeyand the video game rights to SR and BT. The Wizkids bought by Topps does not contain any of te original founders of FASA, thus the IPs no longer being with them. Earthdawn went to Wizkids, bu they sold it back to FASA (thus being in seperate hands). Also was partof the swth from Livingrom over o Redbrick. As to he actual holders of FASA as a holding company, actualy don't know who they are (likely it was the "mystery partner Jordan and Mort had in FASA). Needless to say, the history of all of this gets convoluted,so I can understand not being able to keep up.
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Ah, didn't know about the separation of WK and FASA.
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The few Passion mentions I'm aware of -
Teachdaire the elf assassin from Prime Runners is said to occasionally mention something about "mad passions".
Someone brings up Passions in the Tir Tairngire SB, and Harlequin mentions about sending flowers to his funeral - implying that the Tir Princes brutally suppress any mention of them, as they would anything from the Fourth World.
Another reference is in the opening fiction to Harlequin's Back, where one of the Passions converses directly with Harlequin.
Lastly, I believe that there are references to them in Black Madonna but I'll need to return to that novel to check it.
And thats exactly why I think mentor spirits* cannot be passions - because passions are already alluded to in SR source material, hence implicitly as something different. The comment in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook even explicitly says that the shamans gathering at Lavertys are... different to normal shamans.
*I like the term. Its a generalisation of totems beyond shamanism. The term "totem" is so connected to shamanism that creating a more generalised term simply makes sense.
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It would appear that the mentor spirits can be assummed in some form to be related to the passions as per below
SM pg 40
THE PATH OF THE WHEEL
(Snip)
According to path doctrine, enlightened spirits follow a curriculum
in life, intended to move them further along the Mes ti
Draesis, the five great paths that form the Great Journey of the
Wheel of Life. Each represents a lifelong vocation associated with
an Order of Tir society, an element of nature, and a province of
Tír na nÓg. Each path also aligns with one of five metaphysical
archetypes known as Passions, typically represented by appropriate
mentor spirits.
The five paths are: The Path of the Warrior (for a mentor
spirit, use the Wise Warrior archetype), also known as the
Order of Cu Chulainn; the Path of the Steward (use the Great
Mother mentor archetype) or the Order of Etain; the Path of
the Bard (use the Fire Bringer mentor archetype) or the Order
of Brigid; the Path of the Druid (for mentor archetype, combine
the description of Owl with Moon Maiden’s advantages
and disadvantages) or the Order of Ogma; and finally the
Path of the Rígh (use Sky King) or the High Order of the Sun,
Moon, and Stars (reserved only for the Tir elite and believed to
possess exclusive metamagics able to replicate all the advantages
of the lesser paths).
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It would appear that the mentor spirits can be assummed in some form to be related to the passions as per below
As much as a Mentor Spirit that appears in the form of an angel (or demon) can be attributed to the Judeo-Christian faith, at least.
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Well, Passions are idealized forms. Maybe it just needs time and metahuman influence for a mentor spirit to grow into one? I'd say, theoreticly, yes. But the spirit would have to be a representation of an ideal not included in the ED Passions pantheon, and represent something broad enough to be followed by many, many metahumans... So in other words - not in a normal SR game. :P
P.S. It's good, that there are no Passions in SR. Imagine what would happen with Dis's influence over the Corps, or Raggok's over the Invae (insect spirits), undead, and toxic shamans... Not mentioning Vestrial's machinations.