NEWS

Does alchemy suck?

  • 56 Replies
  • 8818 Views

Chalkarts

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • I'm a Street Painter in South Georgia.
« Reply #15 on: <09-18-18/0846:26> »
I really like the idea of handing out 3 necklaces to everyone before going into the warehouse.

“OK guys, put these on, when If I say “dammit” you get fast, “shit” you get strong, “Fuck” you go invisible.  If I shout all 3 the run went sideways, scatter and kill the first thing you see.  Let’s do this shit.....aw dammit.....FUCK!  -.- We have 3 minutes to do this.  Go!”
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #16 on: <09-18-18/0938:00> »
Enchanting gloves let you handle a contact trigger without triggering it. You can put a contact prep inside a glove, keep it closed with a draw-string or something, and then pass them around to your team so that they can just touch the thing that was inside to activate it when the time comes.

There's also a biofiber pocket that prevents astral perception of anything inside by hiding the contents behind the living biofiber's aura. Since it has its own aura, popular belief is that contact with this pocket triggers a contact prep.
- However, the Advanced Alchemy metamagic lets you set a prep to only trigger on contact with a particular aura, so long as you have a material link to that person when you make it (Advanced Contact (Target-Specific)). Plus, this still only adds 1 drain.
So that for sure lets you, or your street sam, carry a contact prep in a biofiber pocket, and activate it by simply dipping a hand inside for a moment.

Main downside? You have to have Fixation first, which was pretty bad to begin with, and downright stupid with the introduction of Vaults.


As for potions, the 15 karma mastery quality (which doesn't double the cost post-gen), Potion Maker, says that potions "must either be consumed or poured over the target before the preparation can be triggered in any way other than with a timer trigger."

This implies that the default for all potions, including health-category potions, is time trigger.
It also means that you can carry around 5 different potions in capsules or what have you, then slap them all against your chest to break them open and effectively "pour" the contents over yourself, and activate those contact triggers in one simple movement.

That isn't the main benefit of the quality, though. The benefit is that you ignore the extra drain from the basic triggers in core.
- Downside is it requires you to have 4 ranks of chemistry first. Also, the potion ingredients have to include something with a symbolic connection to the spell, like aspirin to heal, or ? ? ? for combat sense.
« Last Edit: <09-20-18/1113:12> by HP15BS »
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #17 on: <09-18-18/0944:44> »
It took three books to make Alchemy somewhat viable.
The biggest drawback is that you need about a three times as large dp as a spell slinger for the same result.
But since Forbidden Arcana made longterm storage of preparations possible, at least now you can use downtime to prepare
Only if you try to play an Alchemist like a Spellslinger. But that's like trying to say your Rigger isn't able to hack like a Decker. Yes, they are both matrix-heavy jobs, and involve some of the same things, but they have different playstyles.

From the start, Alchemists have been viable characters, but it depends heavily on your spell selection, and what you do with it. You simply can't play them the same as your 'typical' mage. I discussed some of this back in 2015, here: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21631.msg390510#msg390510

Essentially, the best way to play an alchemist is to focus on unopposed rolls or AoEs, and carry a gun which will be your main attack in combat. Spells that give a flat penalty to everyone in the area (like Mass Agony) or are better as 'fire and forget' spells in a chase (like Physical Barrier or using Trid Phantasm to make it look like there's a solid wall where you just went down the hallway) are your bread and butter, as well as passing around Heal charms to the team before they go into the building, which you can activate from across the room, or getting some paper talismans with Fireball on them that can be placed in all kinds of inconspicuous areas either on Command or Timed settings. Things going boom always gets guards to go check things out whatever exploded. And a paper talisman doesn't scream danger to most people like a block of C4 with a detonator does.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Chalkarts

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • I'm a Street Painter in South Georgia.
« Reply #18 on: <09-18-18/1003:28> »
It took three books to make Alchemy somewhat viable.
The biggest drawback is that you need about a three times as large dp as a spell slinger for the same result.
But since Forbidden Arcana made longterm storage of preparations possible, at least now you can use downtime to prepare
Only if you try to play an Alchemist like a Spellslinger. But that's like trying to say your Rigger isn't able to hack like a Decker. Yes, they are both matrix-heavy jobs, and involve some of the same things, but they have different playstyles.

From the start, Alchemists have been viable characters, but it depends heavily on your spell selection, and what you do with it. You simply can't play them the same as your 'typical' mage. I discussed some of this back in 2015, here: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21631.msg390510#msg390510[/or getting some paper talismans with Fireball on them that can be placed in all kinds of inconspicuous areas either on Command or Timed settings. Things going boom always gets guards to go check things out whatever exploded. And a paper talisman doesn't scream danger to most people like a block of C4 with a detonator does.

I was thinking coins or small bills.  No one leaves a random 5 bucks laying on the ground.

I really like the idea of it.  It seems like an interesting challenge to make things instead of blasting things.  I’ll have to do a lot of test rolls to understand the mechanics.  But I’m intrigued.
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #19 on: <09-18-18/1009:43> »
Agony is dependent on net hits, same as chaotic world, opium den, etc.

Perhaps you meant Poltergeist?
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9920
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #20 on: <09-18-18/1011:07> »
It took three books to make Alchemy somewhat viable.
The biggest drawback is that you need about a three times as large dp as a spell slinger for the same result.
But since Forbidden Arcana made longterm storage of preparations possible, at least now you can use downtime to prepare
Only if you try to play an Alchemist like a Spellslinger. But that's like trying to say your Rigger isn't able to hack like a Decker. Yes, they are both matrix-heavy jobs, and involve some of the same things, but they have different playstyles.

From the start, Alchemists have been viable characters, but it depends heavily on your spell selection, and what you do with it. You simply can't play them the same as your 'typical' mage. I discussed some of this back in 2015, here: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21631.msg390510#msg390510[/or getting some paper talismans with Fireball on them that can be placed in all kinds of inconspicuous areas either on Command or Timed settings. Things going boom always gets guards to go check things out whatever exploded. And a paper talisman doesn't scream danger to most people like a block of C4 with a detonator does.

I was thinking coins or small bills.  No one leaves a random 5 bucks laying on the ground.

I really like the idea of it.  It seems like an interesting challenge to make things instead of blasting things.  I’ll have to do a lot of test rolls to understand the mechanics.  But I’m intrigued.
Bills?_? What's that? Oh, Corp Scrip?
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1946
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #21 on: <09-18-18/1050:09> »
You probably really want to get Forbidden Arcana if playing an alchemist, and make sure that your GM is good with the options in there.  For example, they lower the priority for playing an aspected enchanter, and have qualities that slow down the aging of your preparations, as well as some gear.

Make sure you have agreement with your GM on what degree of isolation is needed to keep a touch preparation from triggering.  The issue is that it is really touch with an aura, not skin, and we know that auras can be seen through clothes (and even armor).  So carrying it in a regular pocket:  probably not good enough. 

But what about inscribing it on the stock of a gun being carried in a regular holster? (or just on the holster itself?)  Or in a pouch/satchel/purse/man-bag/backpack that is not so tightly held to your skin?

A couple of ideas for useful alchemist tricks:
- throwing seems useful, to get preparations where you need them (that you can't or don't want to go yourself).  Also consider putting a contact preparation on a grenade, and throw it wearing alchemist's gloves.  Normally the grenade goes off and your preparation is wasted.  But should they try to be a hero and throw it back at you ...

- artisan, with a specialization, and 'profession' knowledge skills can be justification for ability to mark up all sorts of interesting things (possibly combine with glasses with a microscope type function).  Get agreement with your GM on how small that would let you go.  A tic-tac is probably still too small, but a stick of gum is probably big enough, Chicklets may be grounds for discussion.  Perhaps you could put your marks on a leaf?  How about a cred-stick?  Or a potato chip?  Can you bake them into a cookie?

- there are some spells that are useful with very low numbers of hits (although some are more useful with more hits).  Mind Link, Gekko Crawl, Cat Fall, Levitate, Enhance Accuracy are a few that come to mind.

Chalkarts

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • I'm a Street Painter in South Georgia.
« Reply #22 on: <09-18-18/1120:39> »
An Idea that bubbled up in my head this morning as an alchemist character was a magical cat Burglar.

The preparations are all buffs, illusions, barriers, and such.  He uses those for the physical world stuff, but he's excellent at dispelling, banishing, and countering and since all if his other stuff is in his preparations he can save all of his drain boxes for destroying magical security.

It's making me consider taking Skills as my A priority in creation.
But he'd also need a decent bankroll to be a talismonger with a shoppe, home, and cargo van.
I don't know if it's viable to make him a metahuman.
I could skate by making him a bit of a physical weakling as long as he could take the drain hits.
I'm also not sure if he'd be better as a full mage or if it would be worth making him a mystic adept.
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #23 on: <09-18-18/1240:18> »
All the sneaking stuff requires a decent physical limit, so you can't skimp on the otherwise unimportant stats all that much.

Talismongering doesn't work so well for PCs. You'd pretty much need a team to do well. (I've been looking for a post that details how to abuse the rules on this, but it just isn't showing up.)
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #24 on: <09-18-18/1248:42> »
Only if you try to play an Alchemist like a Spellslinger. But that's like trying to say your Rigger isn't able to hack like a Decker. Yes, they are both matrix-heavy jobs, and involve some of the same things, but they have different playstyles.
From the start, Alchemists have been viable characters, but it depends heavily on your spell selection, and what you do with it. You simply can't play them the same as your 'typical' mage. I discussed some of this back in 2015, here: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21631.msg390510#msg390510

A matter of taste for sure, but I think your comparison is pretty weak: Sorcerers and Alchemists have to use the same spells. There is exactly one that is Alchemy exclusive and that's nothing to write home about.
If you use only core, the alchemist will have a very hard time to get the same efficiency out of his preparations then a spell slinger.
His effects are less powerful, less spontaneous, thanks to the limited selection of viable spells less varied, higher drain thanks to triggers and also less reliable thanks to fiddlyness of triggers.
Add to that the vastly different viability of the other skills in the skill groups and you get the reason why people said the Alchemist sucks compared to a Sorcerer. It's immaterial that it was still better than muggle with no augmentation, because nearly everything is.

Only with Hard Targets and Forbidden Arcana Alchemists got enough options to actually use their advantages to their full potential.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #25 on: <09-18-18/1426:49> »
Agony is dependent on net hits, same as chaotic world, opium den, etc.

Perhaps you meant Poltergeist?
Also a good one. But since Mass Agony depends on a Log+Will roll to resist, that isn't nearly as problematic as, say, Body+Armor with combat spells. Even 1 net hit on Agony or Euphoria can have big effects on all their rolls until it ends. And Chaotic World has Int+Log to resist. The Int+Log of a device is probably going to be something like Pilot x2 unless there's a rigger in it. Most drones have a Pilot of 3, so say 6 dice, an average of ~2 hits. Getting 3 hits out of your preparation isn't too hard. Suddenly that Steel Lynx has -1 to everything. Every shot, every attempt at maneuvering, every crash test, every defense test, and so on. And the big, tall Troll with the big gun? Every die you take off his rolls with the Panther XXL is golden. So yeah, opposed rolls there, but they are weaker opposed rolls unless you're dealing with mages and hackers. But against gunbunnies and drones...

As an alchemist, your primary role is not direct offense, but setting off fire and forget spells that annoy and distract the enemy. If you have them prepped, for instance, you can layer Chaotic World, Mass Agony, Opium Den, and Trid Phantasm over the same area, with no sustain penalties. That can fuck up a lot of people in short order.

And for the mages and hackers, that's why you have a gun.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1946
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #26 on: <09-18-18/1439:38> »
Something to be aware of, mechanically, is that the expected successes of the preparation (before you've rolled any dice) are (alchemy dice pool)/9 + (preparation force)*2/9.

Which means that you actually get more oomph in your preparations from having a better soak roll than from having a better alchemy pool -- so long as you can get enough successes on your initial roll to defeat the resistance from the force by enough to make the preparation last until you need it. 

A Vault of the ages and appropriate talents make the 'last until you need it' part easier, and can let you recover between making one preparation and making the next or doing anything else.  Which in a way increases your soak by about nine automatic successes, as you sleep off any stun drain that you take.

HP15BS

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
« Reply #27 on: <09-18-18/1543:47> »
The Int+Log of a device is probably going to be something like Pilot x2 unless there's a rigger in it. Most drones have a Pilot of 3, so say 6 dice, an average of ~2 hits. Getting 3 hits out of your preparation isn't too hard.

Actually, it's just Object Resistance. That's 9 for sensors. (15+ for drones, but it's the drone's sensors we care about in this case, so ? ? ?) Either way, you're not likely to beat a drone's resistance unless you're a Practiced Alchemist.

Idk how to treat the resistance while jumped in... maybe both in the case of illusions?

Btw, Beta means "drain soak." In other words, you'll ultimately be better served by a good centering focus than by a good enchanting focus.
- Of course, this gets fairly expensive as you burn through 5 or 6 drams of reagents with each prep (so your drain doesn't turn physical), so you may want to be rather judicious with your use use of the tactic.
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Chalkarts

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • I'm a Street Painter in South Georgia.
« Reply #28 on: <09-19-18/2350:51> »
What sets the duration of a preparation?
If you use one for a sustained spell, how long does the spell stay up?
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #29 on: <09-20-18/0021:33> »
What sets the duration of a preparation?
If you use one for a sustained spell, how long does the spell stay up?
The spell lasts for [Potency] minutes. If it is for a Permanent spell, it lasts until permanent. So an Increase Reflexes preparation will last [Potency] minutes. A Heal preparation will sustain the effect until it becomes permanent. Not eating those -2 sustaining penalties is one of the big boons of Alchemy.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters